Talk:Gray Jedi

Merge with Grey Jedi? 71.82.214.160 07:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Kyle Katarn: a "gray/grey jedi" ?

Why won't the spelling of grey get you to this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.200.168.35 (talk) 09:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Where are people getting that Kyle is a "gray jedi"?

In the video games (where Kyle Katarn is introduced), he has choices:

Dark Forces: no choice, you can't use the Force in this game.

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight; dark side or light side, the light side ending being "canon"

Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith; no choice, light side (Kyle goes to the Dark Side briefly, but is brought back to the light by Mara Jade)

Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast; no choice, Kyle is on the lightside, even though he can use some "Dark Side" powers.

Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy; you don't play as Kyle Katarn in this game, he's still on the light side.

Where this may become confusing is with people misremembering Kyle's lines in Jedi Academy.

In the "training mission" on Yavin 4, Kyle, played by an NPC character says to the player (Jaden Korr) "remember, no force power is good or evil in and of itself, it's how you use it that matters." (paraphrase, but I think that's accurate).

He doesn't say (as per this "gray jedi" thinking) that one can use both sides of the Force with impunity, or that there is no such thing as "Dark" or "Light" or that good or evil are points of view. While Kyle Katarn was portrayed as a mercenary and a loose cannon in the rest of the series, Jedi Academy portrays him as a fairly straight laced and conservative member of the Jedi Order, an instructor under Luke Skywalker.

The only other sources that discuss Kyle at all outside the video games are the Dark Forces serise of short novels, which recount the events of Dark Forces, Dark Forces II and the backstory to Dark Forces (in which Kyle is recruited as a soldier for the empire). He gets a brief mention (a "cameo") in one of the NJO novels, but nothing is really said about his force affiliation or philosophy, just that "he was there." And the only other instance is a comic book from the "Star Wars Tales" series, which I haven't read, but I'm told that particular issue is not considered C-canon.

Kyle uses an orange lightsaber (or blue, if you consider Jedi Outcast/Academy, even though Raven software was forced to change his lightsaber color without in-universe explanation due to apparently orders from the Ranch due to the prequel "rules" about lightsaber colors for Jedi). He doesn't wear a Jedi robe at all, much less a "gray" one and he's only ever been known as a Jedi, or a mercenary/soldier (given the title of "captain" in Mysteries of the Sith).

I always thought the term "Gray Jedi" was a fanon term or something from the RPG's, but if some other sources indicate that this is canon, those ought to be cited.

Vergere

I confess I haven't read the NJO novels, but wasn't the character of Vergere eventually revealed to have been a liar, throwing all the teachings about "there being no Dark or Lightside" into question? That doesn't mean of course that there aren't characters who believe that kind of thing, but I'm curious as to the reason for throwing these other characters into the list. Is it just based on game mechanic style division of powers?

Should Luke Skywalker be considered a "gray Jedi" because he used "force choke" in the movies (and according to the expanded universe, in the Dark Empire comics, Luke DID turn to the Dark Side for awhile and serve the clone emperor)? Should Yoda be considered a "gray Jedi" because he cast "force lightning"? Is a gray jedi really just a "good" character who occasionally uses the dark side of the Force without "turning"?

To me, a grey Jedi is someone who believes that nothing in life can simply be characterized as good or evil, light or dark. They see the grey area in between those extremes. To many of them, the Force was simply the Force, a neutral power, and it was how a person acted that determined whether a person's actions were "light" or "dark." No, not all grey Jedi were good people who occasionally used the dark side. There were some bad people who might be considered grey Jedi. There were also many good Jedi who rarely, if ever, used the dark side, like Qui-Gon Jinn and Jolee Bindo. They just disagreed with many of the Council's decisions. In Bindo's case, this was evident through his belief that Jedi should be allowed to love.

In answer to your other question, no, we cannot simply characterize people as grey Jedi just because they may have used some of the darker powers in anger. It's their overarching philosophy that determines this. I don't believe that Yoda ever used Force lightening, however. Arwen Undomiel ^talk 02:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

OR/unreferenced

This article presents uncited information and makes unattributed inferences/generalizations. The OR and unreferenced tags should remain until this article is cleaned, merged elsewhere or simply deleted. --EEMIV (talk) 13:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)