Talk:Great Seal of the Irish Free State

Question

Why is the obverse not shown? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.107.199.123 (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe there is only one side to the 1925 seal, in which case it would have been impressed onto documents, either via a wax wafer in the manner of the UK Wafer Great Seal or directly embossed into the paper like the Irish presidential seal. The 1931 seal is a two-sided die that moulded a full wax cylinder attached to documents like the Great Seal of the Realm. I wonder how many times it was used; possibly as few as one. jnestorius^(talk) 12:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Tim Healy's private seal

The Free State governor general's instructions matched those given to the first governor general of South Africa and Australia, in particular allowing for the use of his private seal pending the creation of a Great Seal. Those other governors general were British peers who would have had private seals among their noble regalia along with their ermine robes and coronets. (See "Flinders Barr" (1 October 1932). "The Great Seal". Sydney Morning Herald. p. 9. Retrieved 15 October 2019 – via trove.nla.gov.au.) Tim Healy was an Irish commoner. Where did his "private seal" come from? What did it look like? Where is it now? Some speculation at Talk:Great Seal of Ireland#Clerk of Crown and Hanaper's two seals in 1922. jnestorius^(talk) 12:16, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Montreux first use of external seal?

Stewart 1938 p.485:

The Treaty of Commerce with Germany, signed May 12, 1930, and ratified December 21, 1931 ... is the last instance in which His Majesty became a high contracting party to an international instrument in respect of Ireland for a period of almost exactly seven years. When, however, the Capitulations Conference was convening in Montreux in April, 1937, full powers were issued to the Irish plenipotentiary by His Majesty on April 12, 1937

I think this is incorrect; it seems at the 1934 revision of the 1883 Paris Convention for the Protection of Industrial Property, John Dulanty and Edward A. Cleary also had full powers from the king for the Free State. (primary source: Bevans Vol.3 p.225) jnestorius^(talk) 16:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Or maybe I am wrong in interpreting either Stewart above, or De Valera's 1938 Dáil statement. Perhaps issuing of full powers was often by the king, whereas "became a high contracting party" was not; in which case "became a high contracting party" is not the same as "ratification". Or maybe the Free State signed but never ratified the 1934 agreement. jnestorius^(talk) 17:08, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

In fact the Free State didn't sign the Treaty in 1934 (Bevans Vol.3 p.240). So it seems to me there were two uses of the external great seal on full powers (1934 and 1937) but none on ratifying either of those two treaties. So either Stewart 1938 is wrong or I misunderstand "high contracting party". jnestorius^(talk) 17:18, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The 1934 revision was ratified in 1957; "The delay in implementing the London convention arose because it was considered at the time that a number of other amendments to our law concerning patents and trade marks might be necessary" Dáil 1957-07-03. Perhaps Stewart overlooked the 1934 full powers because he was searching only for treaties the Free State had signed. jnestorius^(talk) 17:29, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The UN Glossary of terms relating to Treaty actions, based on the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 1969, has for Acceptance and Approval

The instruments of "acceptance" or "approval" of a treaty have the same legal effect as ratification and consequently express the consent of a state to be bound by a treaty. In the practice of certain states acceptance and approval have been used instead of ratification when, at a national level, constitutional law does not require the treaty to be ratified by the head of state.

This suggests that (in post-1969 language) the 1932–49 practice was to use "approval" rather than "ratification". But the 1938 Dáil motion uses both words:

That the Dáil approves of the Convention regarding the Abolition of the Capitulations in Egypt, signed at Montreux on May 8th, 1937, a copy of which was laid on the Table of the Dáil on 6th day of April, 1938, and recommends the Government to take the necessary steps to ratify the said Convention.

jnestorius^(talk) 17:43, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Replacement of external seal

There are some files in the National Archives of Ireland which seem relevant to the replacement of the external seal by the Presidential seal after the 1949 republic:

1. DFA/5/305/83/11 (1933 (!?)) "Presidential Forms (Letters of Credence etc.) after coming into operation of Republic of Ireland Act"
2. PRES/1/P4260 (1949-1950) "Republic of Ireland Act, 1948: creation etc. of Presidential seal"
3. TSCH/3/S2485 B (Aug 1955-Sep 1955) "External Great Seal: disposal of obsolete seal"

My guess is that #2 says "do we need a new external Presidential seal? No, let's just use the existing Presidential seal for all purposes"; and that #3 says "What will we do with the obsolete seal? Give it to the national museum/national archives." jnestorius^(talk) 08:40, 16 March 2020 (UTC)