Talk:Greater Armenia (state)

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«Բարիքի Արքայություն» Թագավորական Արվեսի Գիտությունը' "Թ9" Թագը, Համամարդկային Գիտակցության Գագաթնակետն է ԳԱԳ !!!!!!!!! GAGIK MATEVOSI MATEVOSYAN ARM EMPIRE ® Джрвеж относится к тем местам, где сюрпризы преподносит не только гений человека, но и природа. Закавказье - один из центров происхождения культурных растений, и в горах вокруг Джрвежа до сих пор встречаются дикорастущие предки культурной пшеницы. Среди густой травы, окаймляющей древние крепостные стены, срываем несколько неприметных колосков - это та самая пшеница-прародительница (Triticum vulgaris), которая дала начало сотням сортов, возделываемых ныне. В этих местах работал академик Н. И. Вавилов, собирая свою знаменитую коллекцию культурных растений, хранящуюся в Институте растениеводства в Санкт-Петербурге.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.193.152.224 (talk • contribs) 19:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Map

I have removed this image from the page: [1]. The description "Boundaries of the Greater Armenia as referred in 1919 by Armenian nationalists" is both misleading and POV, as well as being off-topic for this article. The map is actually titled "United Armenia" and there is no reference or reasoning given to attribute it to "Armenian nationalists". I doubt the validity of placing such images in what is a disambiguation page, especially since the same image is not in the Greater Armenia (political concept) article it purports to represent. Meowy 01:49, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

"Greater Armenia"

The usage of Greater Armenia (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is under discussion, see talk:Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) -- 70.24.244.51 (talk) 07:48, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was procedural close. AfD is started instead for consensus. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 15:02, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

---

There was a discussion (see the above message from... November... 10 years ago!) to keep Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity), also known as Greater Armenia, instead of renaming it to Greater Armenia (see Talk:Kingdom_of_Armenia_(antiquity)#Requested_move_2). Users agreed that Greater Armenia was more common for the irredentist concept and that Kingdom of Armenia should be the main article. And yet today we have two articles for what I understand is the same thing. The other article is quite developed while this one is an unsourced stub with just two references and no infobox. Should we make Greater Armenia a disambiguation page mentioning Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) (aka the Kingdom of Greater Armenia) and United Armenia ("Greater Armenia" as a political concept)? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

As a non-expert coming here from WikiProject:Classical Greece and Rome's article alerts, this argument makes sense—this relatively stubbish article has a title that suggests a modern political movement, and only applies to a small portion of the main topic, which isn't too big to be covered in a reasonably-sized and titled article that already exists. So whatever's here could be reasonably merged into "Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity)", and this title converted into a disambiguation page. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise if more knowledgeable people think otherwise. P Aculeius (talk) 14:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Like P Aculeius I don't have any special knowledge of Armenian history but am here from WP:CGR; from the little I know and looking over these articles they do seem to be covering the same topic, in which case they should be merged. I don't have a strong opinion about whether the article should be at Greater Armenia with a hatnote pointing to United Armenia, or at Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) with a disambiguation page at Greater Armenia. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 14:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Should I close the discussion and move forward with the merge? Or is there any way to gather more feedback on this proposal? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:36, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

That's up to you—if you think that more feedback is required, you could post on the talk pages of WikiProjects likely to be interested in this proposal. Or if you think it's pretty unlikely that there's going to be significant opposition to it—and given the premise of this proposal, and what we can see of the articles as they presently stand, that seems like a reasonable position—you can go ahead and merge this into Kingdom of Armenia, with hatnotes as needed. P Aculeius (talk) 13:08, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

OK, I've posted here. Wait and see... a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:13, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

FYI Armenia Major, which is synonym with Greater Armenia redirects to... Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:22, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose Your understanding of the terms is quite correct. Kingdom of Armenia refers to all territories within the kingdom (including outside the highlands), Greater Armenia is the part of the kingdom within the Armenian Highlands, and United Armenia is the concept. They are three different topics. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:50, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

@KhndzorUtogh Thanks. Do you have RS confirming that "Greater Armenia" = "Parts of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia within the Armenian Highlands"?

And if you do have RS, what makes "Greater Armenia" notable enough to warrant having its own article? (instead of just a redirect to "Kingdom of Greater Armenia", to which it belonged) a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 22:56, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

By the way, what were the territories of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia that were outside the Armenian Highlands? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 23:00, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose One refers to a geographic region and the other refers to a historic polity. I see no reason to merge what are essentially separate, if related, subjects into one article. AvRand (talk) 12:31, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

@Avrand6 What are you talking about? Which one is the "geographic region" and which one is the "historic polity"? No one has provided any RS so far proving that "Greater Armenia" was a polity or region different from the Kingdom of Greater Armenia. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:27, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't think you're going to get any clarification—what you're seeing here is drive-by nationalist arguments that don't have a coherent point relevant to the original question, or any reliable sources. In case I'm wrong, you could give the last editor a day or two to respond—but otherwise I would suggest going ahead with your original proposal. P Aculeius (talk) 04:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

@P Aculeius I agree, thanks. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 06:10, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Oppose: One is referring to the concept of Greater Armenia while the other mentions an ancient state. It would a bit confusing to conflate the two in one article. Rager7 (talk) 15:35, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Rager7 What are you talking about? Which is which? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 15:38, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@a455bcd9 (Antoine) To further clarify, the Greater Armenia article is the general concept, and the Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) article is the ancient state. Hope you understand what I mean. Rager7 (talk) 15:42, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Rager7: for "the Greater Armenia article", we have this article: United Armenia (also known as Greater Armenia or Great Armenia). Are you talking about that article? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@a455bcd9 (Antoine) I'm more specifically referring to this article Greater Armenia . The one we are discussing the merge right now. Rager7 (talk) 16:06, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Rager7: ok but the concept of Greater Armenia is already the topic of United Armenia. So if this article Greater Armenia is about this concept, it should be merged with it (alternatively, United Armenia could be renamed "Greater Armenia). There's no point to have two articles about the same concept. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I see where you're saying merging the Greater Armenia article and United Armenia would avoid redundancy. Rager7 (talk) 16:27, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@Rager7 Exactly. That's why I suggested converting "Greater Armenia" into a disambiguation page pointing to United Armenia (the concept) and Kingdom of Armenian (the ancient kingdom). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 16:37, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

@A455bcd9 Got it, it will further clarify the between the concept and the actual nation state. Rager7 (talk) 16:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merge proposal

@NmWTfs85lXusaybq: what are you doing? Why "A455bcd9 isn't eligible for closing the merge proposal themselves"? WP:MERGECLOSE: Any user, including the user who first proposed the merge, may close the discussion and move forward with the merge if enough time (normally one week or more) has elapsed and there has been no discussion or if there is unanimous consent to merge. @P Aculeius recommended I merge.

And why did you write "which is clear against consensus" when there are 2 opposes (Avrand6 & KhndzorUtogh: who did not dare to answer or provide more details for their non sensical answer) vs 4 supports (P Aculeius, Caeciliusinhorto, Rager7 [changed their mind after discussion] + me)?! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:45, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Even in the case that you consider that I cannot close, then reopen instead of closing with The result of this discussion was do not merge. Non-sense. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:47, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

OK, let's reopen it for further discussion. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:56, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Why did you do this then? Why these disruptive edits? And isn't there a consensus already? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:02, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Content of the article

@NmWTfs85lXusaybq: I reverted your edit that you justified "restored for merge proposal". I'll assume good faith from you: you were mistaken and this is unrelated to the merge proposal. These are just improvement of the content of the article (removing unsourced content + content that failed verifiability + expanding sources + c/e to match what the cited RS said). Whatever the final outcome of the above discussion is, this content can stay here.

If you have issues with the content of this article (and not the merge procedure), please discuss here. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 12:29, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Why did you revert again @NmWTfs85lXusaybq instead of discussing here per WP:TALKDONTREVERT?

Your justification for reverting is "Restoring to the status when the merge was proposed", but there's nothing that prevents from contributing to an article while there's an ongoing merge request as far as I know (please let me know if I'm mistaken). My edits were unrelated to the merge request anyway. Indeed, I mostly:

• Expanded an existing ref
• Removed unsourced content for which I could not find any supporting RS
• Removed text not backed by the cited RS (you can read the source, it's in open access)
• Added the list of the regions part of Greater Armenia
• Added another RS
• I changed the short description precisely to distinguish it from the proposed merge article (Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity)) in case the community decided to keep the article as is.

Can you please engage in discussion here instead of reverting without looking at the actual content? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:23, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. You have overwrited most of this article without further consensus during the merge discussion. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 13:24, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I edited the article during the merge discussion, yes. So what? It is unrelated to the merge discussion. And An edit has presumed consensus until it is disputed or reverted. (WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS). So unless you explain here why you dispute the content of my edits, please self-revert. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I have contested your undiscussed removal of large part of material in this article. If you must replace it with a dab page, please take it to AfD instead. I will explain my revert there. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 13:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

These are two distinct issues:

1. Whether there should be a dab page or not. This is the above merge discussion (where the consensus emerged for a dab page).
2. The content of this article, no matter the decision chosen in 1.

So again: why did you revert my edits? They relate to point 2, the content. Not to point 1, the merge/dab discussion. So please explain why you think that unsourced content should be added back and sourced content should be removed. If you cannot justify your revert, when why are you reverting?! a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:10, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course the content of this article is all the merge proposal concerned, while the dab page is only a possible outcome. And all I can see is that you were trying to bludgeon the merge process. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 14:28, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

What are you saying? I'm fine with all outcomes regarding the merge proposal, that's why I started a discussion (merge with one or the other notion, or dab [Should we make Greater Armenia a disambiguation page mentioning Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) (aka the Kingdom of Greater Armenia) and United Armenia ("Greater Armenia" as a political concept)?] or keep as it is). I'm just editing this article. Justify your reasons for content removal or stop your disruption. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:34, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

I have moved this article to Greater Armenia (state) to make room for your dab after I found it's linked to and actually translated from hy:Մեծ Հայք (նահանգ), which doesn't have enough RS either. As for Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity), the corresponding article in hywiki is hy:Մեծ Հայք. You can request a RM for it to be the primary topic, or an AfD to delete this article, if you want. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 07:20, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

But... why? Why are you overriding the ongoing discussion that YOU reopened? Can you explain your reasoning or the basis for your actions? I may have misunderstood something, but you act in such a weird way, without engaging in discussion and without explaining why you're doing things. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I didn't. The ongoing discussion for the remaining controversy is still opened here. It's you who had removed most of material in this article and eventually replaced it with a dab in place before you closed this discussion yourself. Remember, the discussion is only about content to be merged, not removed, otherwise take it to AfD for blanked and redirected per WP:ATD-R. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:36, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for engaging in discussion for the first time! OK, I understand your point about the move vs dab procedure now. Thanks.

On the other hand, my modifications to this article (now called, "Greater Armenia (state)") are unrelated: I improved the article. This article could stay in the existing state, no matter what the community decides above. You reinstated nonsense. Read the RS that are cited. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:39, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Why did you revert me?

Can you explain the reasons? Did you read the sources? I'll have to report you for edit warring if we cannot resolve this like adults. So please again, now that the procedural issue is solved (by the renaming of this article and the creation of a dab page): why did you revert?

Read the cited source (Hewsen, 1997) for the first paragraph: it does not say AT ALL that Greater Armenia (Armenian: Մեծ Հայք, romanized: Mets Hayk) is the name given to the Armenian state that emerged in the Armenian Highlands during the reign of King Artaxias I at the turn of the 2nd century BC. The term was used to refer principally to the fifteen provinces that made up Armenian kingdoms throughout the classical, late antique, and medieval periods by contemporary Armenian and non-Armenian authors alike. It only says the version I added: "is the region made of the 15 provinces of the kingdom of Armenia: Upper Armenia, Fourth Armenia, Aghznik, Turuberan, Mokk, Korjaik, Parskahayk, Vaspurakan, Syunik, Artsakh, Paytakaran, Utik, Gugark, Tayk, and Ayrarat.[2] Greater Armenia was separated from Lesser Armenia (Pok'r Hayk′, Latin: Armenia Minor) by the Euphrates.[2] Lesser Armenia was never part of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia."

So the only thing I did was to align the content with the source ALREADY CITED (in both the English and Armenian-language Wikipedias).

Your disruption must stop now. Explain why you remove sourced content and add back unsourced unverifiable content. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

No, you can't removing these material only for lack of RS by at present, since you haven't removed the section with no sources in Kingdom of Armenia either. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:44, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

What? Which section? What's the relationship with Kingdom of Armenia? We're just talking about aligning the content with the cited source. Should I ask for a WP:3O? What do you think? What's the best way to solve this dispute according to you? a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:48, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

As I stated many times, take it to AfD. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:51, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't understand. My question is unrelated to AfD. This page could stay as the region of Greater Armenia, according to RS. Which is the historical region of the Kingdom of (Greater) Armenia and also part of the region claimed by the irredentist concept of "United Armenia". I don't see the relationship to AfD. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:54, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

The fact that you can't find RS doesn't mean they don't exist. As you are removing most of material in this article, an AfD is necessary to obtain consensus from community. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 08:59, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

"The fact that you can't find RS doesn't mean they don't exist.": what are you talking about? There's already an RS that is cited in the first paragraph and I only aligned the content of this paragraph with what the source says. Again: this is unrelated to AfD.

So once again, can you please explain, citing RS, why you want to have as a lead:

• "Your" version: Greater Armenia [...] is the name given to the Armenian state that emerged in the Armenian Highlands during the reign of King Artaxias I at the turn of the 2nd century BC. The term was used to refer principally to the fifteen provinces that made up Armenian kingdoms throughout the classical, late antique, and medieval periods by contemporary Armenian and non-Armenian authors alike.
• Instead of "my" version: Greater Armenia [...] is the region made of the 15 provinces of the kingdom of Armenia: Upper Armenia, Fourth Armenia, Aghznik, Turuberan, Mokk, Korjaik, Parskahayk, Vaspurakan, Syunik, Artsakh, Paytakaran, Utik, Gugark, Tayk, and Ayrarat.[2] Greater Armenia was separated from Lesser Armenia (Pok'r Hayk′, Latin: Armenia Minor) by the Euphrates.[2] Lesser Armenia was never part of the Kingdom of Greater Armenia.

Let's focus on this one and only question. It's unrelated to move, dab, or AfD. And it's unrelated to unsourced content removal. The lead, just the lead, only the lead. Based on the RS already cited (Hewsen 1997, I didn't add it myself, it's also on the Armenian Wikipedia, and it's in open access so you can read it yourself). a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 09:06, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Is it a hijacking? It seems that they are completely different while your part is almost duplicated from Kingdom_of_Armenia_(antiquity)#Provinces, both the material and the sources. NmWTfs85lXusaybq (talk) 09:16, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Have you read the source? How could it be hijacking to match the content from the source. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 14:43, 5 December 2023 (UTC)