Talk:Greater Penang Conurbation

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Moving page to Greater George Town

Based on official documents (such as this: http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/709061475743434007/pdf/102222-v1-REVISED-PUBLIC-Malaysia-Competitive-Cities-Main-Report-low-res-final.pdf), metropolitan areas in Malaysia are named based on the most dominant city, not the sub-national entity (which in this case is Penang). I have tried moving the page but it was unsuccessful, apparently because of the title Greater George Town being an existing redirect. Can someone (perhaps @PRehse: or @Lithopsian:) please help me to move the page instead of undoing my attempt to have it moved? I would appreciate at least a step-by-step advice, not an unhelpful revert. Vnonymous (talk) 10:30, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Moving a page. Lithopsian (talk) 10:35, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 26 July 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below; all accounts that supported the move have been connected to Vnonymous in a sockpuppet investigation. Dekimasuよ! 20:56, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

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Greater Penang Conurbation → Greater George Town – Conurbations in Malaysia are officially named after the most dominant city (George Town), not the sub-national entity in which it is based (Penang). See http://documents.worldbank.org/curated/en/709061475743434007/pdf/102222-v1-REVISED-PUBLIC-Malaysia-Competitive-Cities-Main-Report-low-res-final.pdf. Vnonymous (talk) 10:36, 26 July 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 20:35, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 10:42, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• I have no objection to the move. If no one has any objections after the 7 day RM period it ought to be considered uncontroversial. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 10:43, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

@Frayae: Indeed it covers all of Penang. The state is divided between two local governments - the Penang Island City Council (which governs George Town) and the Seberang Perai Municipal Council - both of which are within the conurbation. But within the conurbation, George Town is obviously the most economically advanced city. The link which I posted above is a study conducted jointly by a Malaysian government sovereign fund and the World Bank. From page 4, I quote:

The conurbation names are also used throughout this report as the preferred name for each urban area: “George Town” instead of Penang...

Similarly, another government study here referred to the conurbation as George Town instead of Penang. Vnonymous (talk) 10:50, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I realise that. It is also referred to as 'Greater Penang Conurbation' in multiple books and numerous travel websites. It is sensible to hold a RM as the issue is potentially controversial. Consider what is the most common name? Articles are not always titled according to their official name. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 11:01, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

@Frayae: And there are these government documents as well - 1, 2 & 3. The first two were from the Malaysian government, while the third was another study done by Khazanah Nasional and the World Bank. All of these referred to the conurbation as the George Town Conurbation, not the Penang Conurbation.

Quoting from one of the documents above,

Under the NPP (National Physical Plan), for consistency, a conurbation is named after the most prominent town within it — and not because it is the state capital or the state in which it is situated. Its name is also not based on locality such as “northern” or “eastern”. That township will be the reference centre within its conurbation. In this case, George Town represents the most-developed area and main growth centre in the GTC.

Much of the official documents I have perused so far refer to the conurbation by its most dominant city (George Town), not by the central sub-national entity (Penang). IMO, Greater George Town still keeps with WP:CONSISTENCY as well, given that other Malaysian conurbations are named after the most dominant cities (see Greater Kuala Lumpur and Greater Kota Kinabalu). Vnonymous (talk) 11:07, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

A reasonable argument. On my part I have found there are the following Google results;

• 4,560 for "Greater Penang Conurbation"
• 4,860 for "Penang Conurbation"
• 1,190 for "Greater George Town"
• 2,310 for "George Town Conurbation"

Thus showing that the proposed name could be considered less common, although these are unfiltered sources. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 11:21, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

I understand the point of a commonly accepted name vis-a-vis an official name. Though, I did a Google search & found wildly different results.

• 6,970,000 for Greater Penang
• 19,500 for Penang Conurbation
• 336,000 for George Town Conurbation
• 626,000,000 for Greater George Town

That, plus the fact that most government sources refer to the conurbation by its dominant city (George Town), similar in style to the titles of other Malaysian conurbations in Wikipedia. Still, I shall leave it to consensus on this issue. Vnonymous (talk) 11:33, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

You forgot to use " " marks to get exact matches, so your results ended up conflated with every mention of Penang and all these other George Towns! — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 11:39, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

My apologies. But since George Town as a name is so ubiquitous worldwide, then a Google search does not entirely paint an accurate picture. Who knows if there is a Greater Georgetown in India, for example. Still, I stick to my point that Greater George Town is a more accurate & consistent term. Going by the references, even the World Bank seems to have acknowledged the name as such. Having said that, I would concur if my proposed title Greater George Town should be amended to Greater George Town, Malaysia.

Another point I would like to add. The name Penang is often used to refer to the city of George Town itself, which of course is misleading, since in actuality, Penang is much larger than the city; Penang being a state in Malaysia. I do not discount the possibility that the term Greater Penang may have come about due to the incorrect usage of the name Penang to denote only the city of George Town. Perhaps tourists often refer to the city as Penang, which would lead to this confusion. Vnonymous (talk) 12:59, 26 July 2018 (UTC)

• The proposed title seems strange because George Town is not a legal an administrative entity (that would be the Penang Island City Council) and "Penang" is very common shorthand for the urban area. NB that "Georgetown-Butterworth conurbation" is also used for the area. —  AjaxSmack  00:40, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack: If George Town is not a legal entity, then why do those government sources I posted above (plus the World Bank) acknowledged the city as such? Furthermore, Clause 3 of the Local Government (Merger of the City Council of George Town and the Rural District Council of Penang Island) Order 1974, which was sanctioned by the Penang state government, stated that

"... the status of the City of George Town as a city shall continue to be preserved and maintained and shall remain unimpaired by the merger hereby effected."

This again could indicate the confusion between the terms Penang and George Town (as I have already pointed out previously, more accurately the former being a state and the latter being a city within that state).

It should be noted from those sources that the conurbation is far larger than the State of Penang itself, encompassing areas in Kedah and Perak. Vnonymous (talk) 00:57, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

I've clarified my comment. One of the sources you cite above notes: "...street signs show postcodes as “P. Pinang”...The Federal Government has yet to recognise George Town as a city..." —  AjaxSmack  01:32, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

And I stand by my points. The city status of George Town, granted in 1957 by Queen Elizabeth II, has never been officially revoked. The Mayor in 2015 also acknowledged the fact that George Town now covers the entirety of Penang Island. And those government sources still refer to George Town as a city. A case in point: The university is distant from the heart of George Town, so the city does not benefit from amenities like libraries, coffee houses and bookshops. - Cities, People & The Economy: A Study on Positioning Penang by Homi Kharas, Albert Zeufack and Hamdan Majeed of Khazanah Nasional and the World Bank.

Regardless, the most developed city within the conurbation is George Town, as acknowledged by those government sources above, hence the naming of the conurbation in those sources. To reiterate,

Under the NPP (National Physical Plan), for consistency, a conurbation is named after the most prominent town within it — and not because it is the state capital or the state in which it is situated. Its name is also not based on locality such as “northern” or “eastern”. That township will be the reference centre within its conurbation. In this case, George Town represents the most-developed area and main growth centre in the GTC.Vnonymous (talk) 01:55, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Choosing a title based on "In this case, George Town represents the most-developed area and main growth centre in the GTC" is WP:SYNTH/WP:OR. And Wikipedia is not beholden to the NPP. The relevant policy is WP:COMMONNAMES, and the specific name proposed, "Greater George Town", needs to be shown to be the most common in reliable sources. —  AjaxSmack  03:09, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Under the NPP (National Physical Plan), for consistency, a conurbation is named after the most prominent town within it — and not because it is the state capital or the state in which it is situated. Its name is also not based on locality such as “northern” or “eastern”. That township will be the reference centre within its conurbation. In this case, George Town represents the most-developed area and main growth centre in the GTC. - Cities, People & The Economy: A Study on Positioning Penang by Homi Kharas, Albert Zeufack and Hamdan Majeed of Khazanah Nasional and the World Bank.

I am quoting directly from one of those government sources posted above. Clearly not WP:SYNTH nor WP:OR. In fact, most, if not all of the references I have provided, refer to the conurbation by its dominant city (George Town), instead of the subnational entity (Penang). Surely these government published sources above, which includes some element of research by the World Bank of all parties, are considered reliable? Go read them up. Vnonymous (talk) 03:51, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

• Move/Rename title. The nominator has solid arguments - quite a number of official governmental references using the term George Town Conurbation, versus the multiple books and numerous travel websites that purportedly refer to it as Greater Penang (to this day I have yet to read a single book which explicitly states Greater Penang). The name change is also in line with WP:CONSISTENCY, since other Malaysian conurbations in Wikipedia are similarly named, like Greater Kuala Lumpur and Greater Kota Kinabalu. bonjourPinang 01:35, 28 July 2018 (UTC)Blocked sock of Vnonymous, who proposed this move. Dekimasuよ! 20:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

• Move/Rename title - Agree with the reasons given by Vnonymous above. George Town Conurbation is more widely used by the government-linked references provided above. Semi-auto (talk) 12:35, 29 July 2018 (UTC)Blocked sock of Vnonymous, who proposed this move. Dekimasuよ! 20:54, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

References

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Several notes.

(In particular to @HundenvonPenang)

Currently, I'm rewriting the entire article following the writing structures of George Town, New York metropolitan area, and Greater Tokyo Area. I do suggest making amendments there.

One thing to note, I propose making a move of this page to different names. I have two ideas in mind:

• George Town Conurbation – as the amount of references referring to this name in official documents seems to be quite lopsided, I have rarely seen any official sources using the article title except for tabloids, which quite possibly sourced the name from this page itself.
• George Town metropolitan area (my preference) – the neutrality and sterile nature of the name makes for easy searching.

I send my best regards. gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 17:38, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Addendum: I'm split on the definitions by KPKT. Their southern boundaries for the metropolitan area stopped within Bukit Merah but no more. I'm surprised they excluded Bagan Serai and Parit Buntar. However, some academic sources do refer the entire Kerian District as part of the metropolitan area.

Currently, my draft page simply includes the areas of all eight districts - without any exceptions according to KPKT's definitions. This makes for a total area of 4,965 sq km. I want to know how the present figure was obtained. Was it calculated? For me, it seems to be quite problematic when the GDP calculations amount for the entire district given the limited data from DOSM. gavre (al. PenangLion) (talk) 17:45, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

Hey PenangLion. Sure, will have a look the soonest.

• Agree on moving this page, as it appears that "Greater Penang" actually refers to a masterplan by Najib Razak that never got off. Though from official and academic sources – specifically Dasar Perbandaran Negara, National Physical Plan 2, World Bank study on Penang and OECD – the term "George Town Conurbation" (or "Konurbasi George Town") was more commonly used, and thus should be the new article title.
• Regarding the southern boundaries, it was deduced from the more recent National Physical Plan 4 and while it does not include the entire Kerian district (from my findings on official documents, it never was the case since the earlier Dasar Perbandaran Negara), page 7 -23 outlined the areas of northern Perak that are within the conurbation (i.e. Parit Buntar, Bagan Serai, Alor Pongsu and Selama). This being an official plan from the Ministry of Housing and Local Government (KPKT), I would stick to KPKT (as pointed out previously) as being the more authoritative source on spatial and urban planning matters.
• Did you mean the current GDP total? It's an estimate, given how not all of Kerian is in the conurbation, hence the added "est" in the table and the prose. Actual figures would be more difficult to ascertain, though the conurbation's boundaries did seem to cover most of the major townships of Kerian. hundenvonPG (talk) 22:21, 7 November 2024 (UTC)