Talk:Greek football clubs in European competitions

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sezon 23-24

ΟΥΕΦΑ Γιουρόπα Λιγκ 2023–24

Περίοδος	Ομάδα	Φάση	Αντίπαλος	Εντός	Εκτός
2023–24	Ολυμπιακός	3ος Προκριματικός	ΚΡΚ Γκενκ	1–0	1–1
		Πλέι οφ	ΦΚ Τσουκαρίτσκι	3–1	3–0
		Φάση ομίλων (Όμιλος Α)	Γουέστ Χαμ
			ΣΚ Φράιμπουργκ
			Μπάνσκα Τόπολα
	ΑΕΚ (CL-Q)	Φάση ομίλων (Όμιλος B)	ΑΦΚ Άγιαξ
			Ολιμπίκ Μαρσέιγ
			Μπράιτον
	Παναθηναϊκός (CL-Q)	Φάση ομίλων (Όμιλος F)	Βιγιαρρεάλ ΚΦ
			Ρεν
			Μακάμπι Χάιφα

European Cup/UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup/Europa League presented as one competition (one board) or not (separate boards)

I think that they are the same competition. They are presented as one in the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League articles. Real Madrid has 15 titles in total. That means competition is the same and should be presented as one. Anyone who disagrees can write down his own pov. Thank youAbudabanas (talk) 09:14, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

They are different, one is simply a continuation of the other, but you solved the issue yourself and correctly in the end. But there is also the other issue with the separate table of the top 4 clubs, the goals they have scored that are not seen anywhere else. It's a documented plugin and I don't see what the problem is. All I understand is that you consider the article your own and don't let anyone else write it. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:D19D:6726:41EB:394 (talk) 11:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

The competition is the same, a continuation as you wrote. They must be included in the same table. They are not different competitions so that we divide them into 2 boards. This could be confusing. If you type UEFA Cup on search bar it will direct you to UEL page. Because they are the same. It is shown in the table (exactly as it is shown in the UCL and UEL articles) when those competitions changed name. As for the top 4 clubs, the article is for all Greek clubs who participated in European competitions. If you like to add goals scored/conceded I suggest you do that for all of them. The first board shows the apps/results for all 20 teams. The second shows the all-time contribution of points for the country ranking (I did not add Ionikos, the source swissfootballdata included Ionikos because they played in Europe, Lamia for example have not). Why should we make a top 4 board for goals? Expand the first one or make a third with all teams so that they are all represented equally. Abudabanas (talk) 14:44, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

The competition is not the same, just as you are not the same as your father, just his successor. Finally, this issue is resolved, so we don't need to discuss it anymore.

On to the other topic now. There is the table with the 4 teams. I am not obliged to make for the others. The important is always emphasized. Like the marches in the quarter-finals and not in the round of 16, which you also removed. And just to see how wrong you are, a run to the last 16 of the Champions League is more important and more difficult than a run to the final of the European Cup. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:78D0:96E2:FD7F:25FD (talk) 15:54, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Through the years, the competition changed. Many times. Of course it is way more difficult what Panathinaikos did in 2001-02 for example when they qualified from two Group stages, if you compare it with what AEK Athens did in 1969 when they simply qualified from two rounds. The fact is that the competition is the same though. And they both reached the quarter-finals of the same competition. They are both quarter-finalists and they can both add it as an honour even if it looks unfair for someone because surely Panathinaikos had a way more difficult task. Real Madrid has 15 CL trophies. They do not divide them in 6 European Cups and 9 CL. And it does not matter if the first 5-6 titles were claimed in a more easy fashion. They have 15 titles in total. We are talking about distinctions, aren't we? Last 8 vs last 16. I do not consider that when you reach the last 16 of any competition that you distinguished yourself. I mean it is you and 15 others. This can be shown by multiple things: i) Vocabulary, the word itself. You played a quarter-FINAL, you are a quarter-finalist. No such word exists for Round of 16. ii) Football: UEFA draw procedures. When teams reach the quarter-finals of all UEFA competitions, it is considered by UEFA an achievement. And the last 8 teams are treated equally. No country restrictions and no seedings on the quarter-finals draw. This does not happen in the Round of 16. iii) Olympiacos won the Conference League this year. Without thinking at all, I could name you very fast the most of the last 8 teams if not all of them. It would be difficult for anyone I think, to name the most of the last 16 teams. He would probably search in Wiki or Google to do that. I also think that when we as a country have a team that actually won a European trophy, to consider a Round of 16 participation as a distiction, it is like we degrade the whole thing, about when we should believe that an achievement is worth mentioning. iv) Other sports: You will find a lot of Final-4 or Final-8 tournaments in Basketball, Volleyball and other team sports. You will not find a Final-16 tournament. Eight teams qualify for the NBA Playoffs from the East and eight from the West. Eight runners compete in an athletics final, eight swimmers compete in aquatics final. You will find number 8 everywhere in sports. I mean it's everywhere. It is a distinction. An achievement. When it is yourself and 15 others, it is surely not the same thing. Abudabanas (talk) 16:49, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Exactly. For the same reason, the table you removed and didn't mention at all in your answer should stay because it refers to the teams that have more success and not the ones that have nothing to show. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:69CA:59EF:435:E294 (talk) 19:23, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

There's no issue here, as of the common sense, but also as of the corresponding articles of the top leagues. The European Cup and the Champions League are the first/top-tier competition and UEFA Cup and Europa League are the second-tier competition (since none of the went defunct in between). For everything else I encourage you to go in the other league's articles. BEN917 17:07, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The link you gave is good but it depends on the country. In Albania, let's say they agree with me https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_football_clubs_in_European_competitions, but in England titles count. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:BDC0:4FF8:5F3F:1C41 (talk) 17:28, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

In both countries you indicated the European Cup and the Champions League, as well as UEFA Cup and Europa League comptetions are in the same category. I don't see your point. BEN917 17:35, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't even understand what we're talking about. We are talking about whether qualifying for the last 16 of the Champions League or the Europa League is a distinction for a Greek team. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:BDC0:4FF8:5F3F:1C41 (talk) 17:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry if it seemed that my view was as a direct answer to your previous rant, but I really just expressed my opinion on the topic. Isn't the title "European Cup/UEFA Champions League and UEFA Cup/Europa League presented as one competition (one board) or not (separate boards)", no?

As of the round of 16 and even though I agree with Abudabanas about the not excistance of a word for a club reaching that stage, I believe that it should be included, since the Greek clubs do not present such feats to ignore qualifications of that magnitude. BEN917 07:29, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@BEN917 Question. i) We write down all R16 apps in each competition? ii) R16 apps only for European Cup/CL? iii) R16 apps for European Cup/CL and UEFA Cup/EL? iv) existing board with only CL (without apps when it was named European Cup) and UEFA Cup/EL? Abudabanas (talk) 08:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Write down the Round of 16 apps in all four competitions. I mean I doesn't hurt the addidion of one extra column since the tables already exist. BEN917 09:13, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@BEN917 Ok. I will do that sometime in the next days. Abudabanas (talk) 09:19, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

You don't need to do anything. It's fine the way it is now. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C45D:150F:7266:F674 (talk) 09:23, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Table of the top 4 Greek teams in the European cups

There was a board that a user removed. The table was this:

Place.	Teams	Participations	Points	Games	Victories	Draws	Defeats	Goal	Titles
1	Olympiacos	72	347	356	140	67	149	470-511	1
2	Panathinaikos	60	277	297	103	71	123	360-405	0
3	PAOK	46	246	234	89	66	79	327-304	0
4	AEK Athens	50	213	244	77	59	108	308-365	0

It contains the total performances of the first 4 Greek teams in the European cups (appearances, wins, losses, goals, trophies). These are not found elsewhere in the entry. Please give your opinion if it should be documented or not. Of course it can be enriched in the future.

I propose to keep it. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:648A:DE79:B730:982 (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

This table shows apps, games, wins, draws, defeats which are already clearly shown in the first board of the article for all Greek clubs. Points? Like they were in a league or something? The all-time contribution of points for the country ranking is shown in the second board of the article. Titles? Olympiacos title is mentioned all over the article (intro, gold background on the distictions section, gold background and image trophy on the results section) and it is not like we have a ton of titles to put on the table. The only thing that this table includes that it is not already mentioned is total goals for/goals against of the top 4 clubs. This is an article for all Greek football clubs who participated in European competitions. Expand the first table adding gf/ga for all 20 teams so that all of them are represented equally. Abudabanas (talk) 06:42, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Simply put, you disagree. Okay. Let's wait what other users have to say. For now you have by force imposed your point, since the painting has been there for a long time. It didn't bother you then. It seems that the title of Olympiakos bothered you, as I understand from your words. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:1897:BB81:6AFC:9319 (talk) 09:11, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I wrote the intro for Olympiacos title, I also added in the intro the fact that Olympiacos is the team with the most apps/matches in total, I added a golden background on the distictions section for the 2024 season, I added the second board with the total contribution of points for the country ranking where it is clear that Olympiacos is way ahead of all teams. A top-4 board with numbers which are already shown in the first two boards, in an article which is about all Greek teams seams to me like someone who thinks he is in a fan forum and wants to brag about it on his rivals. The title is everywhere in the article, you do not have to worry, it is not going to fade away. Expand the first board and add goals for/against for all Greek clubs. After all, this is an article named 'Greek football clubs in European competitions'. It's about all of them. They myst be treated equally. Make an article 'Comparison between the top-4 clubs' and lay down whatever you think can make you proud and happy. After all, your team bests everyone else in numbers. And it is clearly shown here also. Abudabanas (talk) 09:36, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I followed this example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_League_Greece#Top_Division_Table_(since_1959%E2%80%9360)

Not all the teams are here either, but only the first 10. And there are too many and not just 20 as in the present entry. So I have no obligation to extend it. It can be done gradually by anyone. And stop focusing on Olympiakos. You are unfair to many teams except PAOK. So don't provoke. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:5105:8397:319C:89FD (talk) 10:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a board about the same competition. The Greek National League. You cannot have all-time European total points when teams have unequal apps in different competitions. For exaple, Olympiacos have more apps in CL which is a tougher competition than AEK who have most apps in EL. That alone creates a statistical error. And that is why it was important to add the total all-time contribution of points for the country ranking of all teams which I did when I read it from swissfootballdata.com. It is easy to make accusations when you are not logging in and appear as an IP user. Log in and report anything you find that it is provoking or being unfair to admins/experienced users for a dispute to be resolved. Abudabanas (talk) 10:40, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

You see you don't know them well. UEFA applies a uniform scoring system that gives 2 points for a win, 1 for a draw, 0 for a loss. These are the actual scores of the teams, regardless of the tournament. The points in the other table you put give the bonuses of the qualifiers depending on the event. Did you see that the tables are different and both are needed? https://www.gazzetta.gr/football/champions-league/article/1428424/o-olympiakos-18os-sto-champions-league-29os-o-panathinaikos-pics 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 (talk) 11:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 Points regardless of the tournament? That is not what the link you added shows. The links shows points on one competition. The CL. Otherwise a statistical error would occur. You need 4 boards if you 'd like to count points. Each for one competition. CL, EL, CWC, ECL. Abudabanas (talk) 11:49, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Here is also from the Cup Winners' Cup.

https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/ec-der-pokalsieger/

The source is already in the thread, which others created, which you have not read and now come to make suggestions and orders. Finish and let someone else speak and have their say. Then the entry will be restored. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 (talk) 12:08, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9D7:48DF:AA4B:3214 These are all-time ranking boards from each competition. They cannot be added all in one and have a total performance. You can create a European competitions all-time ranking section snd add all these boards with the ranking of all greek teams in each competition Abudabanas (talk) 12:19, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Would you like me to make you a coffee? Come on man. Deal with PAOK and let someone else speak. Who do you think you are and you keep making suggestions when you don't even know the basics. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:4466:820E:2FC5:D199 (talk) 12:25, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I would like to add this about the way clubs are rated and it is the same for all 3 competitions. https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulations-of-the-UEFA-Conference-League-2024/25/D.3-Association-coefficient-calculation-Online

D.4.1 Points awarded in the UEFA Champions League

Qualifying phase and playoffs:

Clubs eliminated in the UEFA Champions League qualifying phase or play-offs are awarded points in the UEFA Europa League or UEFA Conference League (see Appendix D.4.2 and Appendix D.4.3 ).

League stage and beyond (excluding knockout stage play-offs):

2 points for a win.

1 point for a tie.

0 points for defeat.

D.4.2 Points awarded in the UEFA Europa League

Qualifying phase and playoffs:

Clubs eliminated in the UEFA Europa League qualifying phase or play-offs are awarded points in the UEFA Conference League (see Appendix D.4.3 ).

League stage and beyond (excluding knockout stage play-offs):

2 points for a win.

1 point for a tie.

0 points for defeat.

Guaranteed minimum:

Clubs are guaranteed at least three points in the UEFA Europa League championship stage, even if the number of points actually earned at this stage is less. This guaranteed minimum is not added to the points actually earned in the league phase and is not included in the correlation coefficient calculation.

D.4.3 Points awarded in the UEFA Conference League

Qualifying phase and playoffs:

1 point awarded to each club eliminated in the first qualifying round.

1.5 points awarded to each club eliminated in the second qualifying round.

2 points awarded to each club eliminated in the third qualifying round.

2.5 points awarded to each club eliminated in the playoffs.

League stage and beyond (excluding knockout stage play-offs):

2 points for a win.

1 point for a tie.

0 points for defeat. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:E986:339C:9B64:A127 (talk) 06:01, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:E986:339C:9B64:A127 Coefficient calculation. That has nothing to do with the all-time total points shown (like all teams were playing in the same league or same competition) on the top-4 board you insist on editing. Adding total points when teams have different apps on multiple competitions creates a statistical error. Abudabanas (talk) 08:22, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

Maybe. but it will check and if it exists it will be corrected. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C4FA:FBB9:E10B:3E9 (talk) 10:17, 20 July 2024 (UTC)

With my first research I found the following: UEFA introduced the points system in its international competitions in 1979. Taking into account 5 years, the official scoring starts from 1975. This means that since 1955 and the 'maiden' European club competition under the auspices of UEFA, the Champions Cup, until 1973-1974, the calculations are not considered official. However, looking at the specialist website Kassiesa, we see scores even before 1974-1975, with the method introduced by UEFA that season. With these data, the corresponding Greek harvest begins in 1959-1960. From 1959-1960 until 2019-2020, with the 5 different measurements used by UEFA (plus the unofficial measurement until 1973-1974), Olympiacos has won 314 points from 118 wins, 54 draws and qualifications that have been accompanied by bonus points, in a total of 299 games in its European history. Panathinaikos is next with 277.5 points in 287 matches (101 wins, 69 draws, 117 losses) and AEK with 202.5 points in 225 matches (71-56-98). Promoted PAOK of the era Ivan Savvidis now has 166 points in 190 games (69-55-66) and Aris are further back with 59.5 points in 66 games (24-18-24) of the 3 UEFA competitions (Champions Cup /Champions League, Cup Winners' Cup, UEFA Cup/Europa League). The remaining 15 Greek clubs that have competed in Europe have accumulated a cumulative 118.5 points in 180 matches (57-34-89).

So everything is correct so far. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:78CA:B43C:E72C:4090 (talk) 07:03, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

To sum it all up, we disagree on 2 things: i) whether a last 16 or last 8 participation is a distinction or not ii) the top-4 board that you keep adding and I found of no use, because the existing first board and the second board that I added with the all-time contribution of points for the country ranking already show everything that a reader needs to know.

About the last 16 vs last 8 thing: a) National Television news article on 10 near miss qualifications of Greek clubs with 8/10 being from quarter-finals on (from the other two, a R32 AEK match with a huge missed chance and a R32 Bayern-PAOK on pens) ertnews.gr b) A great Alphanews article on all the participations of Greek clubs from quarter-finals on alphanews.live c) An article from a less known site with the same content thebest.gr d) An article from a website (not friendly towards Olympiacos I admit) and which shows the quarter-finals/semi-finals/final apps and I guess is the reason you want to add the last 16 apps as distinctions too sdna.gr (matches PAO 25, AEK 10, OLY 4 back then/ 9 now)

About the top-4 board thing: a) Second board with the all-time contribution of pts for the country ranking (that I added in the article) on ertsports.gr (National TV) tovima.com in.gr tanea.gr megatv.com sport24.gr sport-fm.gr fosonline.gr to10.gr. Most of the websites owned by Olympiacos president Marinakis. b) Top-4 board that you keep on adding and includes a total point summary from various competitions is shown only here in Wikipedia. I found that useless when the second board from swissfootballdata is presented and it also creates a statistical error because as I already explained the teams have different apps on the competitions. I suggested that you can include as a comparison the all-time ranking of the teams in each competition. For example CL all-time ranking (OLY 25, PAO 30, AEK 77), CWC all-time ranking (OLY 37 on worldfootball or 39 on transfermarkt, AEK 69 or 71, PAOK 80 or 83 / the two websites ranking is not the same) The all-time standings of CL available in uefa.com, transfermarkt, worldfootball.net and various articles exist with the Greek teams all-time CL ranking on sport-fm.gr gazzetta.gr sportime.gr to10.gr . You presented a coefficient calculation which is a totally different thing and includes the points of each team in the last 5 or 10 years (5-year coefficient for the draw procedures and 10-year coefficient for prize money), an all-time standings board of the Greek National League which is one competition and a text (source?) that says that officially points were awarded after 1975 and if we add the previous years points with the same way, then we can come up with a total summary. Even in kassiesa.net you cannot find a board like this, only a suggestion forum kassiesa.net and you can also read this in kassiesa. The country rankings are published by UEFA since 1979. Before 1990 these rankings were only used to determine the number of berths in the UEFA Cup. In the first years of the UEFA Cup, and before 1971 in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, teams were invited to participate. This archive contains the calculated country rankings for all previous years.

The team rankings are used for the seeding of draws. From 1994 until 1998 only for the seeding of draws in the UEFA Cup. It is unknown whether these coefficients had any meaning before that time. This archive contains the calculated team rankings for all previous years. You keep adding a board that it is unknown whether it has any meaning, it is nowhere on the Internet (or extremely difficult to find because I didn't so far) and is meaningless after the addition of the all-time contribution of pts board and the existing all-time standings of CL, EL, CWC where the clubs are listed by competition (by UEFA also). Abudabanas (talk) 10:04, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Dear friend. I will answer you briefly because these days I am collecting official data on this matter. so you have to wait a few days. Well. 1) Participating in the 16 is important after the establishment of UCL,UEL, UECL, because it has significant benefits in team ranking, beyond the difficult and longer route to get there. 2)The actual team points table is also useful for a simple reason. One point equals 1000 points in the UEFA ranking, whatever that means. I will explain in detail later.

As for the links you show me from various sites, these are stories to caress the ears of fans. See you later. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:216F:29B6:1226:3FD4 (talk) 14:38, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I added all these sources to simply point out that the all-time contribution of pts for the country ranking from the Swissfootballdata is literally everywhere on the Internet. You can also easily find the all-time standings of each European competition and see the ranking of the Greek teams (uefa, transfermarkt, worldfootballnet). An all-time table with points added together, including all the matches from all the competitions and presented like the top-4 board that you are adding, is surely not easy to find. I didn't. As for the Greek teams, the board from the Swissfootballdata is written here, we all see that Olympiacos has offered to our country the most pts and has the best performance by far from the other teams. Had no problem to make that edit. I would delete the apps, wins, draws, defeats which are already shown in the first board for all 20 Greek teams and I would make a 'comparison' table including all-time ranking from Swissfootballdata, CL ranking, CWC ranking, EL ranking etc. All of them easy to find and on various websites, domestic and abroad. I believe that adding points when the apps are not equal in each competition is statistically wrong. And that is why I think that it is easy to find all-time standings for a sole competition (National Greek League, CL, EL etc.). Only in kassiesa.net they had some ideas suggested on their forum about how you may calculate points before 1975. And maybe in a simiral fashion that is what they did on Swissfootballdata for the all-time contribution of pts for the country ranking. Anyway, they did it, it's everywhere, I made the edit here too. Can't find the pts presented like the top-4 table. Can't find a reason to add them when we already have the board from Swissfootballdata. That's all. Abudabanas (talk) 15:48, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Added a request on Wikipedia:Third opinion. Abudabanas (talk) 17:35, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I saw it. What do you want me to do? Should I also write there to say that we disagree? In the rest of what you write, you are confusing it somewhere. I presented real facts and you then showed me some sites. What I understand is that you are in no mood to cooperate. You just want yours to pass. I have already found how many points all 20 Greek teams have accumulated in Europe. All. What are you doing? You look for allies here and there. Anyway. He finally understood that the points earned by each team on the field give them the qualifications and the bonuses that come with them. And since they are documented in sources, your opinion is unnecessary. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:491E:D681:E64:EAE5 (talk) 18:22, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:491E:D681:E64:EAE5 I have no problem with you or Olympiacos or anyone. Can be proved with the edit history in this article. Added stuff that show Olympiacos topping other Greek teams in Europe. Added on intro the fact that they are the top club in apps/matches. Added gold background on 2024 season. I simply have my opinion. And my pov is that a Round of 16 app cannot be called a distinction for a Greek club. And I also found the top-4 table totally unnecessary. You disagree. I accept that. Let's see what other people think on the matter. Maybe I am the one who is mistaken. Abudabanas (talk) 18:51, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

1)You are definitely wrong and on purpose. You are unfair to all the teams that qualified for the round of 16 of the Champions League, the Europa League, the Conference League. To get there you have to go through 3 qualifying rounds, from the playoffs, the group stage and the knockout stage of 32. After all, UEFA gives a separate bonus for qualifying to the 16. If it is the old European cups, where there were 32 teams and you got to 16 from the 2nd round, then it's just not a distinction. Besides, the Greek teams do not have many successes

2)Points determine each team's position in the all-time, 10-year, and 5-year rankings. The actual points and the bonuses resulting from them.

The fact that you keep mentioning Olympiakos is strange. As a PAOK fan, you have Aris as your opponent. Olympiacos vs. Panathinaikos. You don't have the same size. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:7143:B551:DFCA:3415 (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

My opinion was asked on this and I would like to say it. If such table is to exist, I believe the fair thing to do would be to include all Greek teams that have participated in European Competitions, along with the performance of each team in each competition. Inter-Cities Fairs Cup/UEFA Cup/UEFA Europa League would be the same, and European Cup/UEFA Champions League would also be the same, but results for each competition would need to be documented separately. In that fashion, "points" also does not make sense, because no league was ever contested aside from group stages -- several matches were knock out, where a team could qualify even with a loss. However, even for competitions which had a group stage, there were several knockout games that Greek teams had for these competitions, so it would be uneven to categorize all of the games as having "points". Of course, the title of Olympiacos in UEFA Conference League could somehow be highlighted in the extended table of all competitions. Moreover, I believe it is not fair to show only the "top 4" clubs, when teams like Aris, Panionios, AEL, and OFI have had considerable European presence throughout the years. No satisfying argument can be made about showing only 4 teams. The reasonable question arises "why top 4 and not top 5", "why top 5 and not top 7", et cetera. To support this, I also do not agree with the top 10 teams being shown in the overall rankings of the Greek league from 1959 -- I think the Greek equivalent article is the correct way to show overall results for the Greek league and I propose a modification of the English article to comply with the Greek one. For the resolution of this conflict, I would propose one of two things:

• Remove the current table completely, or
• Extend the current table to include all Greek teams ever participated in a European competition, with results categorized by competition, without a "points" metric, and with Olympiacos' title highlighted in UEFA Conference League.

As a general comment, please do try to keep a polite and calm environment. We all know that football is very popular in Greece, and this can lead to being a field of toxicity. Arguments such as "you are a PAOK fan and Aris is your opponent", or "you are saying this because Olympiacos got the title and you are a PAOK fan" when someone is trying to make constructive criticism are, aside from impolite and disrespectful, not tackling the issue. We should try to keep a calm and polite environment, respect others' opinions, try to address the core of these opinions when we disagree on something, and avoid arguing like a comment section of football news websites or social media. Wikipedia deserves better than this and we can all work towards making this a peaceful and fruitful place. -Nevechear (talk) 00:24, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@Nevechear i) Thanks for giving your thoughts on this ii) A table with the results of all Greek teams in each competition already exists in the article (that is why I find the top-4 table with total 'points' of no use) iii) what's your opinion about the distinctions section? Should we include the Round of 16 participations as a distinction or from Quarter-finals on? There is an argument about this also. You can read on Talk page the section with the one or two boards for European Cup/CL and UEFA Cup/EL. Abudabanas (talk) 03:53, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Good morning. Your opinion is respected, but I will remind you of a few things. The results of the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup cannot be counted together with the UEFA Cup, since UEFA itself does not count it as it is considered unofficial.

Secondly . You say that the points have no meaning and that the table is incomplete, with only 4 groups. The official sources, however, have points, on the basis of which the classification of the teams is determined and have corresponding (favorable or not) draws.

Still, if the table is incomplete, it does not mean that it should be removed. It can be paid off gradually. However, it is not a reason for removal.https://documents.uefa.com/r/Regulations-of-the-UEFA-Conference-League-2024/25/D.3-Association-coefficient-calculation-Online

https://www.worldfootball.net/alltime_table/champions-league/

Thirdly. I would also ask you to complete your answer, if you consider the qualification of a Greek team to the last 16 of the Champions League and the Europa League discrimination. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:F50D:DF54:4B7D:8867 (talk) 04:54, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

And a resource that would help complete the scoreboard. It tells how many points each team has contributed since 1959 https://www.contra.gr/podosfairo/posoys-vathmoys-efere-stin-ellada-kathe-syllogos-apo-to-1960.7693004.html 2A02:586:813D:2A91:F50D:DF54:4B7D:8867 (talk) 05:26, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore. No one can deny the existence of a rating when UEFA itself gives it. And indeed in the first 30 teams in all of Europe (me in 4 from Greece only), for the sake of brevity of space and time https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/0253-0d822547c1d9-f5b77ad0a2e8-1000--who-tops-the-all-time-european-cup-rankings/

Many opinions are certainly good, but only when they are substantiated with sources. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:2C6B:14E3:E514:EC3F (talk) 12:09, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Finally, regarding the matter of whether it is a distinction, qualifying for the last 16 of the Champions League and the Europa League.

Points system

Points are awarded as follows:

2 – All wins from group stage (UCL, UEL, UECL)

1 – All wins in qualifying and play-off matches (UCL, UEL, UECL)

1 – All draws from group stage (UCL, UEL, UECL)

0.5 – All draws in qualifying and play-off matches (UCL, UEL, UECL)

4 – Group stage bonus participation (UCL)

4 – Round of 16 bonus participation (UCL)

4 – Group winners (UEL)

2 – Group runners-up (UEL)

2 – Group winners (UECL)

1 – Group runners-up (UECL)

1 – Each round clubs reach from the round of 16 (UCL, UEL)'

1 – Each round clubs reach from the semi-finals (UECL)

https://www.uefa.com/nationalassociations/uefarankings/country/about/ 2A02:586:813D:2A91:E029:1247:7632:9B07 (talk) 12:39, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:E029:1247:7632:9B07 So you are saying that because of the coefficient point system, a Round of 16 app is a distinction for a Greek club and it is also your personal belief. My pov is that we reached at least a quarter-final 19 times. Round of 16 apps add another 38 times (not quite difficult I presume. At least that is what the numbers indicate). Presented domestic articles featuring the 19 times from various sources and the national news. As for UEFA, I already mentioned that the only draw procedure where all teams are treated equally with no seedings and no country restrictions is when they reach the quarter-finals. And that's because it is an accomplishment/distinction. Before that, you are treated by UEFA as a seeded team (based on the coefficient ranking that you are mentioning) or an unseeded one. For the remaining 8 teams, coefficient points/rankings means nothing. You are a quarter-finalist. All 8 teams shone out in the competition and are treated equally. I suggest that only those 19 times should be shown on the distinctions section. Abudabanas (talk) 13:13, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

It adds nothing to the tragic. A simple column next to 8 is. And I have nothing to prove to you. You find sources that say that qualifying for the last 16 of the Champions League is not a distinction. Of course you never got there. But let's wait and see what your friend, who forgot to answer this, will say. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:9B6:129D:433C:CABB (talk) 13:40, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:9B6:129D:433C:CABB You are pointing out the coefficient ranking points. They are valid up until the Round of 16. From the quarter-finals onwards, UEFA does not use them. They put them aside. It is clear by that action that UEFA considers a quarter-final app as a distinction. All remaining 8 teams treated equally. It is also clear by the numbers that a Round of 16 app is not quite difficult to reach for the Greek clubs. This is not my statement. It's what the numbers indicate. Have nothing more to say. Let's see what other users think on the matter. Abudabanas (talk) 13:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The point mate is that you don't have sources, but personal perceptions. However, I just now discovered something that should not be in the column of 16 of the Champions League. Of AEK in 1993 and 1995. Essentially, passage to the 2nd round is nothing else. The same does not apply to Olympiakos and Panathinaikos. See the entries of 1993 and 1995 in the Champions League. Also for grades. They can, although they shouldn't come out easily. I'll make an edit for you to see. If you disagree, undo it. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:F44C:205:56B9:4C00 (talk) 14:11, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:F44C:205:56B9:4C00 AEK Athens was one of the 16 teams remaining in the competition, however in the entry it is written that UEFA CL was proposed as a name for the last 8 group stage. In that case, a R16 app of 2006 or 2010 season for example can be added in your distinctions board, but the R16 apps (or 2nd round, whatever) of AEK Athens in 1993 and 1995 UCL seasons can't be included. Do you realize how confusing may that be for a reader and that you created a board that simply cannot be accepted because the parameters and the statistics shown are not even for all participants? R16 apps are not distinctions. Provided you the solution Abudabanas (talk) 15:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

If this year PAOK passes the 2nd qualifier, passes the 3rd, passes the playoffs, qualifies from the league phase, qualifies from the 24 and reaches the 16, will it not be a distinction? It will even be big. Leave the bullshit. You know I'm right. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:FC70:1F66:DC3F:55D2 (talk) 15:43, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:FC70:1F66:DC3F:55D2 No, it won't be. Surely not an easy task, a respectable march, but not a distinction in Europe. Not something that outside PAOK supporters would last in memory. APOEL from Cyprus reaching the quarter-finals in 2012 was a distinction. Olympiacos in 1999 season too. I can easily recall the year when Olympiacos reached the quarter-finals. And when Panathinaikos did in CL or UEFA Cup. The matches, the opponents. Juventus - Olympiacos in 1999. Barcelona - Panathinaikos in 2002. Details. Like the last minute penalty of Niniadis in the 1st leg. The mistake by Eleftheropoulos in the 2nd leg. Basinas penalty in the first leg vs Barcelona. The last minute missed chance of Vlaovic at the Camp Nou. If you asked me when did Olympiacos/Panathinaikos reached the R16, can't recall the exact seasons. Maybe approximately and surely not all of them. As for the details very few come in my mind. Can recall for example that once in R16 you won Man United 2-0 home and lost 0-3 away. Can't remember exact year, scorers etc. You as an Olympiacos fan would surely remember all the details. If you went through that year, that's a distinction in Europe. Quarter-finals Abudabanas (talk) 16:17, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

If you can't remember then look it up. Dementia is a dangerous disease that strikes even the young. However, I remember Aris' 3-0 in Perugia very well. I have not seen such a ball from a Greek team in Europe since then, even though I am a fan of another team. Anyway. Without sources you cannot remove something that has sources. Anyway, I'm sorry that you forget easily. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:88BB:27F9:4186:33CD (talk) 16:36, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't know in what kind of criteria should be the top 4 teams in a table. That reminds me of the "Big 3", "Big 4" or "Big 5" that the Greek newspapers and sites use, which is clearly a journalistic term that doesn't exactly fit in an encyclopedia. But mevertheless, doesn't the first table covers it all? Even if it's not, another table fills the gap. Is there any particular reason in keeping it? BEN917 17:31, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

The first table with the appearances does not have the goals of the teams. Here's a reason. If it bothers you that there are only the first 4 groups, you can fill in the rest. It's not a reason to take him out anyway. It is also a clearer table than the first one and gives an overall picture of the teams with the greatest distinctions. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:BDC0:4FF8:5F3F:1C41 (talk) 17:56, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

Then the goals of each club should be added to the first table to get this over with. BEN917 07:31, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@BEN917 @Nevechear Do you agree with the removal of the top-4 board and that the existing first two boards including all 20 Greek teams (1st with results, 2nd with all-time contribution of pts for the country ranking) provide all the information needed? Of course, we can expand the first board adding goals for/against in the future. I could do that. Abudabanas (talk) 08:10, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it's for the best. BEN917 09:03, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

If you spread out the first panel it won't be readable as you have to scroll the sidebar. And we don't remove anything documented. Don't forget this. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C45D:150F:7266:F674 (talk) 09:27, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:C45D:150F:7266:F674 Three users have the same pov, top-4 table removed. I hope that you stop reverting. No need for blocking, reports etc. Abudabanas (talk) 17:25, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes. I think that there is nothing to support a "top 4" table, if a table with the results of all Greek teams exists. Nevechear (talk) 16:14, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@Nevechear Top-4 table removed. Me, you and BEN have the same pov that the first two boards are sufficient. Hope the IP user will stop reverting Abudabanas (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

Discussion result

@Nevechear @Abudabanas @BEN917 You have decided to remove the painting and are urging me to stop with threats. I didn't know that docs are only removed because three users decided they didn't like them. We'll see.--2A02:586:813D:2A91:68FF:451B:871D:FF0C (talk) 19:50, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

And to show you an example of how insidious your contribution is, look at what one of you called Panhellenic championships, when they didn't even happen

1941–42 Panhellenic Championship

1942–43 Panhellenic Championship

1943–44 Panhellenic Championship

1944–45 Panhellenic Championship

What do you have to say now? Should we ask the Greek federation or ask the administrators to delete them? I say you better make up your own mind, as you usually do, pretending to be innocent pigeons. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:3D7A:68D3:9F96:5AA1 (talk) 22:41, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:68FF:451B:871D:FF0C Thing is that you won't stop reverting even if there are 5 or 6 users who disagree with you like in the Greek Football Cup article. Abudabanas (talk) 05:09, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

I haven't dealt with this article recently.. Besides I find it fine. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:65DF:6533:69AA:D57C (talk) 05:21, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

These articles that you're mentoining are about abandoned seasons of the Panhellenic Championship as of other seaons before and after the WW2 so your point is invalid. And even if it was that is a whole different case about what we are examining now. Abudabanas followed a correct procedure to resolve the issue according to the terms and policies of wikipedia. If you are not familiar with them or the result isn't to your likings it's not on everybody else's fault. If the sources are your main issue we can resolve this as well and add them to a similar table, text or better as external links. And remember, keep it civil BEN917 08:07, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

https://www.rsssf.org/tablesg/grkprehist.html#44

1943 The 'Union of Greek Athletes' started a league in Athens and Pireus under

the supervision of the German occupation army. Known results (of A.E.K.)

1944 In February 1944 Panathinaikos created a "Panathinaikos Tournament", but

this failed to end. There were 2 groups created, 1 in Athens and 1 in

Pireas. Not a single score is known.

1945 Greece was liberated, so the EPO (Greek Football Federation) took the

decision to start the regional championships again. A tournament called

"Easter Cup" was started 22.4.1945, but failed to finish, because

Panathinaikos were expelled from the tournament.

Do you see anywhere that it says panhellenic championship? No! So you have falsified a source, i.e. you are making fun of its readers WP! However, the other two users, who I saw you have collaborated on other posts, are not doing anything. Obviously because they cover each other's irregularities.

In this thread you didn't even read the debate and took Abutabana's side without providing a single source. Just your opinion. And you threatened me indirectly already. You talk about civil when you consider me dumb and trash. Maybe I am. But I am not a slave. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:7D68:EA25:E3D6:1F36 (talk) 08:59, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Summary tables of results for each European cup separately.

Since I'm really interested in the entry and not in fights I will present summary tables for each competition, so that the goals scored by each team, all teams, can also be seen. I'll give an example starting with the Conference League

Summary of the course of the Greek teams in the UEFA Europa Conference League
Club	App.	Games	W	D	L	G	Seasons
PAOK	3	34	18	7	9	55-34	2022, 2023, 2024
Aris	3	10	6	1	3	15−11	2022, 2023, 2024
Olympiacos	1	9	7	0	2	19−10	2024
AEK	2	3	2	0	1	6−5	2022, 2025
Panathinaikos	1	2	0	1	1	1−3	2023

2A02:586:813D:2A91:7583:7674:F069:E62A (talk) 08:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:7583:7674:F069:E62A Already shown on the first board of the article. Apps, results in each competition for all Greek clubs. You are expanding the matches section (and the whole article) adding 4-5 boards for no reason. Goals for/against could be added on the first board and have a smaller version of the article. Abudabanas (talk) 09:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

If we put the goals in the first table, it will spread out so much that it will not be read. Anyway, I'm trying to make the article better and more detailed. Stop judging me and work. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:A463:A6DC:232D:858F (talk) 09:13, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:A463:A6DC:232D:858F You are not making the article better or more detailed by expanding it and adding 4-5 tables that include info which are already there. Abudabanas (talk) 09:28, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

The tables you added were not needed. The first panel on the top right shows the 10-year raking. You are a toxic person and half educated. Continue the war. I will continue to work. One of us will get blocked in the end. But this will be judged by the administrators. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9:F0B7:D52D:5E2F (talk) 09:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

@2A02:586:813D:2A91:C9:F0B7:D52D:5E2F The top right shows the year by year coefficient pts of Greece for the last 10 years. I added the current UEFA coefficient rankings both for country (that is the 5-year total and by which is determined by UEFA how many clubs are qualified for each country) and clubs (which is this season's coeff for each club that is valid for all draw procedures until next year). Abudabanas (talk) 10:13, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes I know. Congratulations. Move on. 2A02:586:813D:2A91:C0D9:21D6:10F8:B9BC (talk) 10:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)