Talk:Groups claiming affiliation with Israelites

POV check

The Template:POV check has been placed on this page because it appears that the entire purpose behind the creation of this thinly-veiled article is only to validate the unproven claims of certain users with a Mormon POV who are obsessed with validating their own beliefs and views by "adopting" topics (actually entire existing Wikipedia articles) relating to Judaism and the Jewish people. Pathetic! That is why a Template:verify was inserted in the Mormon sub-section of this article. The attempt to somehow equate Mormonism with (elements) of Judaism is further shown in the new template Template:Mormon jew which was manufactured by plagiarising the original Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar. Again, pathetic! Why is this article needed? It merely restates (basically verbatim) all the points that are to be found in all these individual articles, and there already exists a comperehensive Mormonism and Judaism article, so why create this one as well, unless you are grabbing at straws? IZAK 17:15, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

What is the point of this article?

This appears to be an article listing a bunch of unusual groups which either claim to be or are Jewish, with one other completely unrelated group (Mormons) mixed in. The text itself is mostly copy-pasted from the articles on those groups itself. Is there any point to this article? Jayjg ^(talk) 18:45, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree with this too. I mean why is the Mormon religion on this list? If they can be on their so can The Way of God Church of the Lord Jesus because if you look at their site you will see they now see themselves as true Israelites even while believing their religion is Holiness.--MinisterMason (talk) 13:50, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a very useful article as anyone interested in the lost tribes of Israel would probably like to see a list and details of all the tribes claiming to be of Israelite origin Interested567 (talk) 13:50, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Merge this article with the Israelites article?

Since I just did a major clean up and the Israelites topic, this is fresh on my mind. Many of the "groups" included in this article are covered there, with the same points being made and rsame eferences cited. It seems like too much redundancy to have so much duplication between these two articles. I think we should consider:

1. Merging this article with Israelites, but taking great care to not duplicate information that is already in that article performing the merge.

Or,

2: Moving all groups not recognized as "Israelite" by the proper authorities (we might need an expert on the subject to weigh in) into this article, and keeping/moving to the other article only groups that are accepted as Israelites.

If anyone else has suggestions, please do bring them up! The two examples I gave didn't take much effort on my part and I know there have got to be better suggestions out there. It's pretty clear to see some of the problems with these articles, and I was looking for so I wanted to propose some somewhat quick ways to regroup/reorganize the pages for improved ease-of-use and to facilitate quicker searches for our readers. Not to mention, either of the suggestions I made will eliminate redundancy and, thus, the chore of having to check/edit identical source material in multiple places.

Any thoughts? Thank you for reading about my suggestions. Hananekosan (talk) 15:16, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Rename?

I'm wondering if this article might better serve us if it dropped the exclusive focus on ancient Israelites. I was thinking simply "Groups claiming affiliation with Judaism." Here is the sort of info that prompted my thought: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/.premium-1.624585. Dontreadalone (talk) 00:13, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Or maybe not. Maybe this remains and we have Judaizing communities or something similar as a compliment? Dontreadalone (talk) 00:37, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

"It is accepted that the Jews and the Samaritans are descendants of the ancient Israelites"

True or false, rabbinic orthodox jewish writings seem to disagree with this statement (regarding the samaritans). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.46.78.41 (talk) 16:46, 2017 August 30 (UTC)

Rabbinic orthodox jewish writings do not represent actual history. The only difference between Jews and Samaritans was the political affiliation with the Temple authority in Jerusalem. But both groups were only minimally descended from historical Israelites (which are distinct from biblical Israelites). ♆ CUSH ♆ 11:48, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Groups claiming affiliation with Israelites

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Groups claiming affiliation with Israelites's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "MJSelfID":

• From Messianic Judaism:
  
  • "Jewish Conversion – Giyur". JerusalemCouncil.org. JerusalemCouncil.org. 2009. Retrieved 2009-02-05. We recognize the desire of people from the nations to convert to Judaism, through HaDerech (The Way)(Messianic Judaism), a sect of Judaism.
  • Robinson, B. (2006). "Messianic Judaism". Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance. Retrieved 2008-04-29.
  • "Recent incidents suggest rise in violence between Haredi, messianic Jews". Haaretz.com. 2006. Retrieved 2008-04-29.
  • Haberman, Clyde (1993-02-11). "Jews Who Call Jesus Messiah: Get Out, Says Israel". The New York Times. Retrieved 2008-04-29.
• From Judaism: *"Jewish Conversion – Giyur". JerusalemCouncil.org. JerusalemCouncil.org. 2009. Retrieved 5 February 2009. We recognize the desire of people from the nations to convert to Judaism, through HaDerech (The Way)(Messianic Judaism), a sect of Judaism.

Reference named "Denominations":

• From Judaism:

  Orthodox

  Simmons, Shraga. "Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus". Aish HaTorah. Retrieved 28 July 2010. Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:
  #Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. #Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah. #Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations. #Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

  Conservative

  Waxman, Jonathan (2006). "Messianic Jews Are Not Jews". United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Archived from the original on 28 June 2006. Retrieved 14 February 2007. Hebrew Christian, Jewish Christian, Jew for Jesus, Messianic Jew, Fulfilled Jew. The name may have changed over the course of time, but all of the names reflect the same phenomenon: one who asserts that s/he is straddling the theological fence between Christianity and Judaism, but in truth is firmly on the Christian side....we must affirm as did the Israeli Supreme Court in the well-known Brother Daniel case that to adopt Christianity is to have crossed the line out of the Jewish community.

  Reform

  "Missionary Impossible". Hebrew Union College. 9 August 1999. Archived from the original on 28 September 2006. Retrieved 14 February 2007. Missionary Impossible, an imaginative video and curriculum guide for teachers, educators, and rabbis to teach Jewish youth how to recognize and respond to "Jews-for-Jesus," "Messianic Jews," and other Christian proselytizers, has been produced by six rabbinic students at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion's Cincinnati School. The students created the video as a tool for teaching why Jewish college and high school youth and Jews in intermarried couples are primary targets of Christian missionaries. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

  Reconstructionist/Renewal

  "FAQ's About Jewish Renewal". Aleph.org. 2007. Archived from the original on 23 October 2014. Retrieved 20 December 2007. What is ALEPH's position on so called messianic Judaism? ALEPH has a policy of respect for other spiritual traditions, but objects to deceptive practices and will not collaborate with denominations which actively target Jews for recruitment. Our position on so-called "Messianic Judaism" is that it is Christianity and its proponents would be more honest to call it that. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

• From Messianic Judaism:

  Orthodox

  Simmons, Shraga. "Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus". Aish HaTorah. Retrieved December 13, 2016. Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because: 1. Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies. 2. Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah. 3. Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations. 4. Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

  Conservative

  Waxman, Jonathan (2006). "Messianic Jews Are Not Jews". United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism. Archived from the original on December 20, 2016. Retrieved December 13, 2016. Hebrew Christian, Jewish Christian, Jew for Jesus, Messianic Jew, Fulfilled Jew. The name may have changed over the course of time, but all of the names reflect the same phenomenon: one who asserts that s/he is straddling the theological fence between Judaism and Christianity, but in truth is firmly on the Christian side.…we must affirm as did the Israeli Supreme Court in the well-known Brother Daniel case that to adopt Christianity is to have crossed the line out of the Jewish community. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

  Reform

  "Missionary Impossible". Hebrew Union College. August 2, 1999. Retrieved December 13, 2016. Missionary Impossible, an imaginative video and curriculum guide for teachers, educators, and rabbis to teach Jewish youth how to recognize and respond to "Jews-for-Jesus", "Messianic Jews", and other Christian proselytizers, has been produced by six rabbinic students at Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion's Cincinnati School. The students created the video as a tool for teaching why Jewish college and high school youth and Jews in intermarried couples are primary targets of Christian missionaries.

  Reconstructionist/Renewal

  "FAQ's About Jewish Renewal". aleph.org. 2007. Archived from the original on October 23, 2014. Retrieved December 20, 2007. What is ALEPH's position on so called messianic Judaism? ALEPH has a policy of respect for other spiritual traditions, but objects to deceptive practices and will not collaborate with denominations which actively target Jews for recruitment. Our position on so-called "Messianic Judaism" is that it is Christianity and its proponents would be more honest to call it that.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:50, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Missing Groups

this article seems to miss out a number of groups with traditions or claims going back to ancient Israel, such as the Royal clan of Madagascar and relatives and some people on the Philippines Interested567 (talk) 13:55, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. The Kaifeng Jews of China should be added, as well as the Persian Jews. However I think it's not necessary to list every sub-group which are recognised as Jews on this page. The better knows ones should at most only be given a paragraph with links to their own articles.

1.127.107.58 (talk) 21:21, 25 July 2021 (UTC)