Talk:Guiomar Novaes

Name

• Why the "Novais" spelling? I can't find any contemporaneous source that says she spelled her name any way other than "Novaes".

• This rather suggests her true date of birth was 28 February 1895, not 1896. I've altered the article. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• Jack, I quite agree with you, and discussed at length this matter with Dantadd (the editor who changed the spelling; you may follow the discussion on his talk page, if you want), but it was to no avail. Dantadd claims that the current spelling rules of the Portuguese language should apply. I disagreed and explained my reasons in detail, but he remained adamant. So, in order to avoid an edit war, I decided to let it be. At least I got him to include the "archaic spelling Novaes" in the article. Best regards, MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Page has now been moved as agreed. -- JackofOz (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• I just noticed this discussion here after I just changed the article's title again. I should have ckecked here first sorry. Still, I believe the correct spelling should actually be "Guiomar Novães" as the artist spelled her own name this way. (well at least Herbert Barrett her manager) Singingdaisies (talk) 21:52, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a misunderstanding here: Guiomar Novaes never spelt her name as "Novães", as her many letters and overall written correspondence show. If Herbert Barrett wrote it like that, he was just plain wrong. MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 02:31, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Ditto. "Novães" isn't even a Portuguese surname, and is much worse than "Novais", which at least sound the same way. Ninguém (talk) 03:28, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Do you think a phrase should be added regarding Harold Schonberg calling Novaes de "Paderewska of the Pampas" that it was incorrect, for there are NO PAMPAS in Brazil. He was getting confused with Argentina, for Christ sakes! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.47.93 (talk) 23:21, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

There are Pampas in Brazil (in Rio Grande do Sul). What I don't see is how Novaes' style can be deemed similar to Paderewsky's. Maybe the intention was to compare the technical perfection of both pianists, but otherwise I can see no similarity. Ninguém (talk) 18:02, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

It was James Huneker, not Harold Schonberg, who called Novaes "The Paderewska of the Pampas". Schonberg merely mentioned this in his book. Furthermore, Paderewsky was anything but a technically perfect pianist, so Huneker must have had something else in mind when he made this comparison (things like singing tone, flexibility of phrasing, etc.). MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Umlaut, sometimes

Her name was sometimes printed with an umlaut, such as on this 78 RPM record from 1948l, and others. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noliscient (talk • contribs) 18:18, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Octavio Pinto

Jack, I looked in the New Grove as promised and found nothing on Novaes' husband, composer Octavio Pinto. I have access to a 2nd Edition of the New Grove if I get to Pasadena sometime this week; hopefully, something will be there. Otherwise, since you have some of his compositions, maybe you might have more ready access to biogrqaphical information that I do. Jonyungk (talk) 22:37, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Jack and Jonyungk, here is some information on Octavio Pinto I found in the All Music Guide:

Octavio Pinto

Born November 03, 1890 in São Paulo, Brazil Died October 31, 1950 in São Paulo, Brazil Country: Brazil Biography Brazilian composer Octavio Pinto is perhaps better remembered as the husband, from 1922 on, of the brilliant and famous Brazilian pianist Guiomar Novaes. Pinto was in fact not a musician by trade, but actually an architect with a thriving business throughout Brazil. He did manage, however, to get some piano lessons from the well-known Hungarian pianist Isidore Philipp (teacher also of Pinto's wife when she was at the Paris Conservatoire) as a young man, and he issued a relatively steady stream of music -- character and show pieces for solo piano -- until he died in 1950. Pinto's most often-played piece of music is one written for and made famous by his wife: Childhood Memories (Scenas infantis, from 1932). Well-known in South American musical circles even before marrying one of that continent's greatest virtuosi, Pinto was a close friend of Heitor Villa-Lobos. The oft-made claim, however, that Villa-Lobos composed his piano work Próle de bébé, Book 1 in honor of Pinto and Novaes' two children (daughter Anna Maria and son Luis Octavio) is a dubious and untidy one: Villa-Lobos composed Próle de bébé in 1918, several years before the two married and had children. ~ Blair Johnston, All Music Guide

If you think he merits an article, here's a start ! Best regards, MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 00:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Title of talk page

We now have an article Guiomar Novaes but a talk page Talk:Guiomar Novães. I tried to fix it but it so that both use the first spelling, but it didn't work. Can someone fix this, please. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:01, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Feito. Ninguém (talk) 11:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

err ... noblesse oblige?  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 11:37, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Spelling

By the way, there are absolutely no rules to spell proper names. Names of persons are spelled as registered at birth, signed by the person, used by the person, or sometimes even as printed in the newspapers. That an orthographical reform would change the spelling of somebody's name is absurd, as is the footnote appended to the name.Kraxler (talk) 20:32, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes... so I suggest to change these pages: Luís de Camões to Luiz de Camoens; Afonso Henriques to Affõso Hẽrriques; Euclides da Cunha to Euclydes da Cunha etc. etc. You must read the "Acordo Ortográfico" and several style guides (see Dicionário Histórico-Biográfico Brasileiro by Fundação Getúlio Vargas). Dantadd (talk) 01:13, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

This article is about Guiomar Novaes, that's her name. Orthographic reforms do not change people's proper names. Or do you suggest to move Fernando Collor de Mello to Color de Melo? You know that there is no double L in Portuguese. Please read the Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Names guidelines, and then come back. Kraxler (talk) 21:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Please read the above guideline, and then say why it should not apply here. Please do not edit war, Dantadd. The article has been without the note for years, so the article should remain thus until after consensus has been established that it can be added. Kraxler (talk) 17:31, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

O Estado de S. Paulo, 1942

It's just a note... The "Acordo Ortográfico" is very clear when it states that all nouns, including names (given names and family names) that belong to the Portuguese language (i.e., it does not apply to foreign names) should follow the regular spelling rules. I'm not proposing moving the article, just adding a note that brings the simple information: the family name Novaes, in modern spelling, should be written Novais. The same applies to Luís de Camões (in his time Luiz de Camoens), Afonso Henriques (in his time Affõso Hẽrriques) or the much more contemporary Eça de Queirós (there's a note there...). My friend, it's just a simple note. It means no harm and gives a valid information. Dantadd (talk) 17:57, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Folha da Manhã (Folha de S. Paulo), 1943

It's not just a simple note. First, no other article has such a note, as far as I know. Second, the name of a person has nothing to do with orthographic rules. The Dictionary you cite serves as a guideline for the registrar how to register new-borns at the registry. If it is the law, he should follow it. Once registered with a different spelling, it can't be changed anymore, except by order of a court. Please distinguish people who lived before there were any rules (like Camões whose name was written in many different ways), and modern people who have their names consistently written in the same spelling. The name "Guiomar Novaes" was never written anywhere with a different spelling. All sources agree that this was the spelling. Under the circumstances, no footnote needs to be added. Footnotes may explain differences in original and modern spelling (like Ferencz/Ferenc Liszt) or they may explain variant spellings. But here there is nothing to explain. Contrary to the Orthographic Rules, nobody ever spelled her name Novais, after all, her name was Novaes. Kraxler (talk) 18:30, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Ok, you won. You are wrong about the Portuguese spelling rules, but I will not create a war. Congratulations. Dantadd (talk) 20:18, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

And talking about "The name Guiomar Novaes was never written anywhere with a different spelling.", take a look here or http://acervo.folha.com.br/busca_detalhada/ here]. Those are just the most important Brazilian newspapers with plenty of articles that use the current (and correct) spelling "Novais". Suddenly, "never" assumes a different meaning. Dantadd (talk) 20:20, 14 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the clippings. (I took the liberty to insert them here in the discussion, for better spacing.) I'll think about it. A note similar to that at Theophilus C. Callicot may be appropriate. Kraxler (talk) 13:33, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

And if you have some time, please read: this and this. Here you have a few excerpts:

1. Pasquale Cipro Neto e Ulisses Infante, por fim, fazem importante e oportuna observação: "A grafia dos nomes de todos os que se tornam publicamente conhecidos aparece corrigida em publicações feitas após a morte dessas pessoas".1
2. De Arnaldo Niskier também é lição nesse sentido, para o nome dessas pessoas: "passando desta para a melhor, a norma é escrever seus nomes de acordo com as regras ortográficas", razão pela qual "um Antonio Luiz só o será em vida: depois da morte passará a ser, portuguesmente, Antônio Luís".
3. Nomes históricos. De acordo com as normas ortográficas vigentes, o Estado coloca na grafia atual os nomes históricos. Assim: Luís (e não Luiz) de Camões, Eça de Queirós (e não Queiroz), Washington Luís, Venceslau Brás, Campos Sales, Rui Barbosa, Aluísio Azevedo, Artur Azevedo, Vital Brasil, Machado de Assis (e não Assiz), etc.
4. Pessoas mortas. Históricos ou não, os nomes de pessoas mortas serão adaptados à grafia atual: Castelo Branco (e não Castello Branco), Luís Carlos Prestes, Vinícius de Morais, Gilberto Freire, Ulisses Guimarães etc.

I hope all those references will be useful. Dantadd (talk) 02:08, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

That's very interesting. It requires certainly some thought about how to get this info into the article, to comply with the guidelines of the English Wikipedia and with the facts themselves. Thank you for the refrences, I'll draft something next week. Kraxler (talk) 15:07, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

I re-inserted the previous note. We can discuss about the text used to reach a consensus. Dantadd (talk) 14:47, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

I re-deleted the note for several reasons:

1. The note itself, as it is worded, is nonsense: It says "must be spelled" but the name is not spelled Novais, which is self-contradictory and thus unlogical. Besides, Wikipedia is not a lawbook which orders their users to do something or other. It is an encyclopedia, which spreads knowledge. It is based on sources. All modern sources, which refer to her, spell her name Novaes. Her name was occasionally misspelled Novais during her lifetime. As you know, the Formulario Ortografico of 1943 instructed the spelling of living persons' names to be maintained as registered at birth.
2. The rule stated in the Formulario Ortografico of 1943 is widely ignored, I had never heard of it before. The authoritative sources continue to spell names as they were spelled during the lifetime of modern historical celebrities. See here: The Presidential Library of the Brazilian Government spells "Castello Branco". The change of apersons name after their death is unconstitutional (violating human dignity), illegal and actually unheard of in any other country of the world. It specifically does not apply to how the name is spelled in foreign countries. Wikipedia is bound by the sources, and can not change the spelling under a supposed general rule.
3. And now the most important: The latest Acordo Ortografico, now in force, seems to have revoked the 1943 rule. See here, Base XXI says that "To preserve their rights, anybody may maintain the spelling of their name as they themselves use to spell it or how it was legally registered." There is no mention of any change of spelling after the death of a person. I ask you to put forward proof that the supposed rule of 1943 was re-affirmed by the subsequent spelling reforms, as you claim. In the meanwhile, I suggest you refrain from adding any such note to any Portuguese language proper names. Kraxler (talk) 12:32, 31 March 2014 (UTC)