Talk:Guitar synthesizer

Cleanup needed

Ok, the Guitar/Synthesizer PC section is written like someone who can barely grasp English, and sounds like an advertisement. Someone should remove it immediately. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.34.198 (talk) 23:05, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Possibly error

Usually, a cable connects the hexaphonic pickup to the converter. This allows the guitarist some freedom of movement, unencumbered by the converter. However, several Casio models in the PG and MG product lines integrated the guitar, the hex pickup, and the converter into one unit. Casio is the only known manufacturer to try this. It was convenient in that a MIDI cable could be plugged directly into the guitar. Godin has taken a similar approach, selling guitars with 13-pin synth acces.

I think that Roland are producing the sma.e can anybody confirm or deny? Lochok 13:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

That is not the same thing as what Casio once offered. The 13-pin interface allows you to connect to the converter. The Casio guitars had the converter built in. --Trweiss 13:11, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Two Minor Problems

It is difficult to say whether a guitar/synthesizer is an instrument in its own right. The Roland paradigm is actually two instruments, one controlling the other. Guitar-like MIDI controllers are not instruments at all; just an interface to the instrument. Nevertheless, guitar/synthesis has its own techniques, advantages and limitations which are distinct from both guitar playing and conventional keyboard synthesizers.

This is a bit of a philosophical issue, but not a very difficult one to answer I don't think. A midi controller is a part of an instrument, just as much as the keyboard on a piano (taken without the strings, hammers, and sounding board) is part of a piano. Pretty usleass by itself, but a part of the piano nonetheless. Taken with a synhtesizer, the controller, whatever that controller might be, is part an instrument. But this is all OR, as is whats in the article now, and its difficult to determine whether either contention is appropriate according to No OR policy. Strictly speaking its not, and the view should be attributed to a published source, but its difficult to find sources on issues like this, and might just be better left out of the article.

opening a low-pass filter in real-time is an expressive technique which is often possible on a synthesizer but is not possible on a guitar. (Guitarists need a wah-wah pedal to produce a similar effect.)

Putting a low-pass filter on a guitar, and controlling it with a pedal, is not only possible, but not exactly uncommon. A wah-wah pedal is only one type of filter that happens to be very popular. But, given an alternate music history, low-pass filters could have been just as common. But pedal controlled low pass filters, or ANY other kind of filter, are available for guitars (they just happen not to be as popular, but still not in any sense uncommon). As a matter of fact, any effect that is applied after the synthesis on a synthesizer (most effect barring midi effects, and real time oscillator harmonic control--) can be applied, and controlled in real time, to a guitar by simply sending the guitar to the same effect (even DSP effects, as most guitar effects are these days anyways) So I'm moving this bit out.Brentt 20:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This page is very out of date I have just been drafting an update paragraph but I am by no means an expert here it is for now is anyone else sufficiently interested to pitch in to bring this up to date?06:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)06:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)06:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)~

2011 has seen a step change in the utility of Guitar Synthesis with Din 13 connections or variations on that theme and further devleopments in both divided Pickup technology of both the Peizo and Magnetic variety and particularly the availability of faster more affrodable processors. Line 6 have launched the JTV Variax modles along with the new generation of Pod HD's and Roland the improved GK3 along with the Roland GK 99 and GK55 all these innovations and improvements are are providing guitar modelling as well as Amp modelling functionality controlled with Midi Switching in real time without most of the famous glitches of earlier systems.and other pickup manufacturers such as Graph Tech with their ghost technology have all made great strides in eliminating glitches such as Piezo quack.RogerGLewis (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC) RogerGLewis (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC) Thats as far as I have got I'm not sure why I really care but it does seem a shame for this page to be out of date in this much revived and fast moving area of Music and perfoimance technology.RogerGLewis (talk) 06:23, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Page move

Sorry, accidentally left out comment with the move operation. The page name should not contain a forward slash as this indicates a subpage (namely "synthesizer") of the "Guitar" page, which is clearly not the intention with this page. The previous pagename "Guitar/synthesizer" will redirect to this one so previous wikilinks in other article will still work. Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (technical restrictions) for futher information. --Deon Steyn 08:21, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Beginnings

On the historical section, the article is missing the following guitar synths, which were the firsts, along with the Roland GR500: The ARP Avatar, the "360 Systems Polyphonic Guitar Synthesizer" (used by Lee Ritenour in Captain Fingers), the "360 Systems Slavedriver" (Used by John McLaughlin AFAIK), the swedish Hagstrom's "Patch 2000", and the Electro Harmonix Rackmount Guitar Synthesizer (Used by Steve Howe in ASIA). All these are pre-1980 and analog, and were used by notable musicians.

The technical section can be expanded more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.41.23.23 (talk) 20:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Technical problems

Roland has followed two somewhat divergent tracks in their use of guitars and basses as controllers for synthetic audio. Directly relevant to this article are the GR devices, intended primarily as musical synthesizers. These devices are capable of sending and receiving the full range of MIDI control signals, and are directly analogous to the more familiar keyboard-interface synthesizer. Because of latency — here, the brief amount of time required to digitally interpret an analog signal — there is often a brief but perceptible hesitation between striking a note and hearing a resultant tone. At least one (the GR-1) had some basic sequencing capability.

The other branch is the VG ("Virtual Guitar") group. These devices employ COSM (composite object sound modeling) in order to create guitar-like sounds, including simulation of pickup configurations, amplifier types, speaker cabinets, audio effects devices, room acoustics, and microphones. (COSM has much in common with the modeling used by other companies, e.g. the Pod devices of Line 6.) As these devices are generally using digital modeling to control and embellish analog signals, there is no digital-to-analog latency. These devices transmit and receive a very limited set of MIDI signals, such as triggering.

There is some overlap as to both function and use. Some of the VG voices strongly resemble synthesis; some of the GR voices sound quite like a standard guitar. Despite that, they are functionally separate.

So there I'm stuck. The VG are by far more commercially successful than the GR, and have had prominent (often enthusiastic) users, not least being Metheny, Fripp, Belew, Gabrels, Joni MItchell, and Vai... yet since these boxes are assuredly NOT synthesizers, their mention in this article should be bare-bones minimal.

All such mention should be in its own article, right? But search "guitar modeling" and you wind up right back here.

Augh.

At very least, I'll have to start a section for "guitar modeling" or similar, in hopes that it eventually deserves to be an article. But let's be clear: modeling is essentially the same as an effects pedal, albeit crammed with more computing power than NASA had for the Apollo program. But modeling IS NOT synthesis. It'd be shameful to give that misunderstanding credence here.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 01:52, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

proposed changes

I adore the playing of Roy Wooten. Almost all the gushing over him NEEDS to be cut here. (Put it in his article!) (resolved)

Dedicated game controllers DO NOT belong here. Being able to somehow hook them up to stuff that eventually rsults in audio IS NOT sufficient justification. It'd make more sense to start listing every electronic noise-making toy ever made that looks &/or sounds remotely like a guitar, and I'd cut THAT in half a heartbeat. (resolved)

The newest entry in Recent models is from 2010. Kinda suggests that many more have come and gone since. Someone got a better heading?

Must I remind everyone about the perils of List-O-Mania?? Merely because someone once tried out a device DOES NOT mean that she/he ever was "a user" of that device, much less remains so. If you want to add a name to the list, have the decency to point to an article where the device is actually discussed!! Perhaps better, find an old catalogue or adsheet where the musician has willingly supported the manufacturer.

In the users list here, I could verify that Reeves Gabrels and Joni Mitchell each used the Roland VG-88 VG-8 exclusively for multiple tours. Jennifer Batten is like the ONLY player to have a hex-pickup signature model (Washburn JB-100 MIDI) but I've no idea what she plugged into. (slight correction: Ritchie Blackmore had a short-lived Roland-ready Fender model, and as well has for years brought out a white Strat with a Roland hex rig, though I can't find mention of what it drives.)

Others plugged in only for some of the sets, or for a song or two per show, or maybe once used it as a ten-second embellishment in the studio (Marty Lee Hoenes, hex fuzz at outro of "Ah! Leah!"). These things ARE NOT EQUAL. Putting them all in a single alphabetic list is inherently claiming they ARE equal.

Overall, there are dozens of specific claims made, with no attempt at sourcing. If you've got some pet project here, fix it before I kill it.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 02:23, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

Oh, goshdarnit. Actually, Gabrels and Mitchell both relied upon the earlier VG-8, an entirely different device. Apologies for letting that gaffe ride so long. Weeb Dingle (talk) 21:41, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

I have removed the entire Software guitar controllers subsection of Guitar-like MIDI controllers as nonsensical and irrelevant. Actually, I can make a case to remove the entire section: When sections like this appear, it's a sure sign the article is being needlessly dragged out, expanded too far past its ostensible purpose. If you take the "guitar" part out of "guitar synthesizer," then you're beyond the pale, period. If something cannot be played like a guitar AT ALL, then it deserves no mention in this article.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 02:38, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

For the much same reason, I have removed the Guitar sound synthesis section.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 02:42, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

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Does DSP have a place in this article?

If there is discussion on WP of guitar modeling, it has eluded me. The most well-known general term is DSP, digital signal processing (though DSP has much wider application than just guitar). Various gear companies have made use of DSP; I'm most familiar with Roland's VG devices.

While musicians are probably most familiar with DSP as a way of creating "virtual" effects boxes, DSP is (per its name) digital rather than analogue. For that alone, I lean toward including modeling (or if you prefer, modelling) in this article.

But though digital technology is used to modify an analogue signal, the intent is to create "synthetic" sounds that closely mimic analogue (and analogue-modified) sounds… and that makes me want to definitely NOT put it here.

Muddling this further is that the same GK hexaphonic pickup used for GR synthesis is employed to drive VG devices.

Would inclusion of VG COSM in this article be out of place? Opinion welcome.
Weeb Dingle (talk) 08:29, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

On the question of DSP being included in this section - take note that the Boss -SY-300 guitar synthesiser uses DSP and modeling to control the oscilators of the unit (and also allows the guitar signal to be fed into the filter and effects section of the synth). This is a different approach to previous guitar synths and is worthy of mention in this article. pete (talk) 05:43, 29 December 2017 (UTC)