Talk:Gustav Horn, Count of Pori

Untitled

Of course, there was no "count of Pori" in the Swedish aristocracy, this is an anachronism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.65.145.15 (talk) 23:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Horn af Björneborg

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was No consensus Duja► 09:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The name registered with the Swedish House of Nobility is Horn af Björneborg. Wikipedia should not be used to invent new names. Teuton 14:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. The proposed name is against the naming convention of Wikipedia, which clearly says this biography should be under his title of count. Additionally, this is English Wikipedia, not a place to mask people's names' behind their translations to Swedish. In English Wikipedia, it is totally irrelevant how a person was registered in a Swedish institution. We do not have Catherine II of Russia behind such name as "Prinzessin Sophie Auguste Friederike zu Anhalt-Zerbst", although she undoubtedly had been registered as such in some German institution. Suedois 00:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Sueadoise, I suggest you take a look on the discussions om this site on how names are to be treated. The consensus is that the original names are used. Kings and roylaties have also been translated into English, which is acceptable but in my opinion not suitable for the nobility in general. The noble family Horn af Björneborg was ennobled by the Swedish king, therefore I chose to inform you of the full official name as it has always been recorded in the Swedish House of Nobility (I fail to see you point when you say this is of no relevance). You are inventing Finnish names here which is unacceptable. (I am quite surprised you did not translate also Horn to Torvi (Finnish)). Teuton 19:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose Use English. Septentrionalis 21:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly support We should use English, but not Finnish. Transalations of names into English are accepted only for royalties. The name is Count Horn af Björneborg. Teuton 17:08, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

• Strongly support Of course where English names are in use they are the ones to be used, also i Wikipedia. However, for a large number of foreign subjects there are no English translation of their names. When it comes to Swedish historical persons, without any translated names, the Swedish names are to be used. This should mean that Swedish names should be used for all, but historical royalties. For some reason Finnish names are used for many Swedish historical persons. This must be considered incorrect. Finland was not a separate state, not even a separate region of Sweden. It was fully incorporated, in difference for example Scotland with the UK, and the Finnish language had no official recognition in this State. Finland as a separate area was invented in 1809, when it became part of the Russian empire, but not even then did the Finnish language become an official language. Of course Finnish names should be used for Finnish persons, but for the Counts Horn or for that part the more recent Marshal Baron Mannerheim, they must correctly be named in Swedish. If Wikipedia should use present translations of historical names consequently, this would mean that for example the German Prince von Pless, would be known as the Prince von Pszczyna, the Irish dukes of Leinster as the dukes of Laighin or the Austrian dukes of Teschen would be called dukes of Český Těšín. The consquence of this would only be confusion and for this reason I strongly suggest a cleanup among Finnish names on historical Swedes.

Carl (not Kaarlo) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cwestgren (talk • contribs) 00:52, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Name?

Why is it that he is called Horn, Count of Pori, when in fact he's last name is Horn af Björneborg and the city he was a count of wasn't even called Pori, but only Björneborg, at the time? This name is not historically correct, and the last name includes the af Björneborg part, which is not to be separated. This article ought to be named Gustaf Horn af Björneborg as that was this person's complete name. Aszev 15:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The city was called Pori by Finnish speaking Finns, who were the inhabitants of the city. --88.114.242.180 18:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

This still doesn't change the fact that his last name is Horn af Björneborg. It is a proper name, and the article should of course be named thereafter. Aszev 20:33, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with Aszev. Horn af Björneborg was (but is no more) a prope family name and should be treated as such. One should add in the text that he was count of Pori (Björneborg in Swedish, which was dominant administrative language of Finland back then), though. But that's a title, not a name. No need for a title in the article name.

Jens Persson (213.67.64.22 (talk) 02:20, 13 January 2008 (UTC))

If you want to change to have the other one be the name of the page, it has to be done properly. First get agreement among the editors here, then ask for an admin to help move the page properly since it will be a complicated move (over a redirect) that can't be done properly by a non-admin. You can put in a request at Wikipedia:Requested page moves. Meanwhile, I'll put it back to the way it was before today, because it's not acceptable to just have two pages each redirecting to the other and no way to find the content. Thanks. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Wait -- I was just reading Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names, which says "Rule here is, "So-and-so, ordinal (if appropriate) title (of) place [...] Examples: Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington, or Henry John Temple, 3rd Viscount Palmerston, [...]". I did some web searches which gave me the impression that "Gustav Horn" may be a much more commonly-used name for this individual than "Gustav Horn af Björneborg". I also saw the variant "Gustav Horn von Björneborg". The convention page says "In general, use the most commonly recognized English-language form of the name." So it seems to me that perhaps Gustav Horn, Count of Pori may be the appropriate name for the page after all, or possibly Gustav Horn af Björneborg, Count of Pori or Gustav Horn von Björneborg, Count of Pori. Can anyone look up the name in an encyclopedia of nobility or something and see how it represents the name? --Coppertwig (talk) 19:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

The sirname registered with the Swedish House of Nobility (Riddarhuset) is "Horn af Björneborg" (anyone can check this on their website www.riddarhuset.se). He was made count of Björneborg (Swedish for Pori). He was addressed as Count Horn. The proper way on this page would be to use the full official name or just use Gustav Horn. //Teuton (talk) 21:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the information! I can't get that web page to work, but I take your word for it. Maybe the website will work another day. "Björneborg" and "Pori" mean the same thing, so maybe it would be silly to say "Gustav Horn af Björneborg, Count of Pori". Maybe just "Gustav Horn af Björneborg" after all. I think we can say we're all agreed -- everyone who commented in this thread except maybe 88.114.242.180, who didn't really say which name to use. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the great cooperation. My guess is that 88.114.242.180 is merely a troll. I didn't realize there was some kind of automatic function reverting my edits (which after all were correct), sorry.

Jens Persson (213.67.64.22 (talk) 20:25, 14 January 2008 (UTC))

Why not just "Gustav Horn", with Gustav Horn moved to Gustav Horn (disambiguation)?

—WWoods (talk) 20:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I can see the website now, but I can't find where you can look up names of nobility. Can you tell me where to go on their website to check it? I only understand a very tiny bit of Swedish, and only one of their pages is in English.

I would like to see a reliable source for his name listed in the article in a "References" section. Maybe that website can be used. I think the article can tell people where to find his name on that website. Or maybe someone can give information about a book or something that lists his name.

There was no automatic function reverting your edits, Jens Persson. User:Jonathan reverted some of your edits, and I reverted some. (Sorry!) I'm not sure why Jonathan did. I reverted because I thought you and Jonathan should stop reverting and leave the article the way it was the day before, until we could all decide what to do. Go to the article and click "history" at the top to see the list of edits.

Your edits may have been correct for the correct name of the person the article is about, but they were not correct for the correct way to move a page in Wikipedia.

If you want to move a page, please don't just copy the text to the new place. The page history has to be moved, too. Please use the "move" button at the top of the page. If it tells you that you can't move it like that, then please ask an administrator to do it at Wikipedia:Requested page moves. In this case, I put a request there, and User:Anthony Appleyard has fixed everything: now the page history and the talk page are all here at the new name. But it's better to wait and just do the move the right way, because if people edit the page after the cut-and-paste move and before it's fixed then the page history can get complicated.

It also helps if you write edit summaries that tell people what you're doing. I think part of the problem might have been that Jonathan didn't understand what you were trying to do. If you're moving a page, the edit summary should say something like "moving 'Gustav Horn, Count of Pori' to 'Gustav Horn af Björneborg'" or "moving page to new name as discussed on talk page" or something. (But anyway you should use the "move" button and it will put in the edit summary automatically.) I guess at first I didn't understand what you were trying to do, either. I just saw two pages that redirected to each other, and I couldn't see the article.

Reply to WWoods: Two reasons. One is that, as I said above, the Wikipedia naming conventions suggest including his title as well as his name, so "Gustav Horn, Count of Pori" would be better than just "Gustav Horn". The other reason is that we have three editors insisting that his correct name is "Gustav Horn af Björneborg", with one saying that it can be looked up at the Swedish House of Nobility, which sounds to me like a reliable source for this. Please get agreement or compromise among all editors here before you do any more moves. I don't have strong feelings about the name of the page, so if others agree on something then that's OK. The best thing is to find books and other sources, list them in the References section, and use them to decide what the correct name is. --Coppertwig (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Nationalencyklopedin calls him "Horn, Gustaf".[1] Svenskt biografiskt lexikon includes him as "Horn, Gustav" (volume 19, pages 361-364). Olaus (talk) 00:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The page I managed to find on Riddarhuset (maybe Teuton is referring to another one) is [2], concerning the noble family Horn af Åminne (a brother family to Horn af Björneborg) where it states:

Riksrådet och fältmarskalken Gustaf Carlsson Horn (1592-1657) upphöjdes i grevlig värdighet 1651 26/3 på Stockholms Slott av Drottning Kristina med Björneborg i Finland som grevskap, och introducerades 1652 15/10 med namnet Horn af Björneborg under nr 9, men utgick ätten med honom själv på svärdssidan 1657 10/5.

(Free translation) The riksråd and field marshal Gustaf Carlsson Horn (1592-1657) was promoted to count in March 26 1651 at Stockholm Palace by queen Kristina with Björneborg in Finland as his county, and was introduced October 15 1652 with the name Horn af Björneborg under no. 9, but the family ended with himself on the sword side April 10 1657.

Another thing that speaks for the use of the full name, in my opinion, is that all noble names of the construction x af y are registered and used in this full form in present day Sweden (even though they're sometimes informally shortened to the first part only, but never officially). Aszev (talk) 16:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

As this is English Wikipedia, and not Swedish, please kindly use English sources. It is immaterial what sources in Swedish say. Such namings are welcome in Swedish Wikipedia, which really uses Swedish language in its texts. Suedois (talk) 16:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia's principle is to use reliable sources, which for Swedish nobility may very well be in Swedish, and use naming conventions appropriate for an English language encyclopedia. Which is the English-language source and the Wikipedia policy that point out a semi-translation into Finnish as the name in English for a Swedish noble? I see no compelling reason for the of Pori name for this person, since it is not the naming of the article on the town Pori/Björneborg we're talking about, and no strong support. A discussion about a move to Gustav Horn af Björneborg should be opened to correct the name. Tomas e (talk) 11:12, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Breitenfeld

Horn did not fight against the Saxons at Breitenfeld. The Saxons were allied with the Swedes (both being protestant) against Tilly's Imperial, Catholic force. John George was routed by the right wing of the Catholic force (under the command of Furstenberg). Horn, who was next in formation beside John George maneuvered his soldiers to prevent Furstenberg's men from flanking the main body of the Swedish force. Like so: [1][2] [3]. Thanks. Staple (talk) 08:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)