Talk:Guy of Ibelin (died 1304)

Parentage

Which John of Ibelin is his father? John of Ibelin, the Old Lord of Beirut, married Melisende of Arsuf, and he had a son named Guy, but that family lived too early for this Guy. Adam Bishop 06:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, nevermind, apparently he was the son of the jurist (and Maria of Armenia, not Melisende of Arsuf). Adam Bishop 03:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm confused too. That John of Ibelin died in 1266. So how could he be the father of Guy of Ibelin, who supposedly wasn't born until 1276? Or did they have sperm banks back then?.... --Elonka 00:44, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Page move

I'm still not finding any confirmation that this Guy of Ibelin was born in 1276. More likely the birthyear is 1250. Until/unless we can find a solid source, I recommend that we move this page to Guy of Ibelin (died 1304). Any objections? --Elonka 02:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

(followup) Since there was no objection, I went ahead and moved the page. --Elonka 03:27, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Deletions

Some important information from the Medieval historian Le Templier de Tyre about Guy of Ibelin was deleted a few days ago [1]. Could someone kindly reinstate it? Cheers PHG (talk) 19:24, 23 November 2008 (UTC):

Guy is mentioned in the 13th century account by the medieval historian "Le Templier de Tyr", as entering into contact with the Mongols in order to re-conquer the Holy Land. According to the chronicler, Ghazan sent an envoy to inform that he would join the Franks during the winter, but adverse conditions stopped him from coming:

"That year [1300], a message came to Cyprus from Ghazan, king of the Tatars, saying that he would come during the winter, and that he wished that the Frank join him in Armenia (...) Amalric of Lusignan, Constable of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, arrived in November (...) and brought with him 300 knights, and as many or more of the Templars and Hospitallers (...) In February a great admiral of the Tatars, named Cotlesser, came to Antioch with 60,000 horsemen, and requested the visit of the king of Armenia, who came with Guy of Ibelin, Count of Jaffa, and John, lord of Giblet. And when they arrived, Cotelesse told them that Ghazan had met great trouble of wind and cold on his way. Cotlesse raided the land from Haleppo to La Chemelle, and returned to his country without doing more".

— Le Templier de Tyre, Chap 620-622

That information was removed because it's covered elsewhere, and it was giving undue weight here, to Guy's contact with the Mongols. See Franco-Mongol alliance, and Talk:Franco-Mongol alliance#List of articles for review. --Elonka 22:49, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleting is not editing [2], and just putting a paragraph about Guy of Ibelin's involvement in the Holy Land can't be undue weight. This article is ridiculous small, and is in need of more information on Guy. Cheers PHG (talk) 06:07, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

PHG, thank you for respecting the ArbCom restrictions which banned you from editing all articles relating to medieval history. If you would like to continue to participate on the talkpage in a civil fashion, and to provide other reliable secondary sources which have additional information about Guy, I would be happy to review them. --Elonka 06:22, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The first bit is (mostly) fine. The entire quote is unnecessary just like it is everywhere else. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. Maybe be we can just leave the quote in the references for anybody to be able to check easily. Cheers PHG (talk) 07:33, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

The quote is a primary source that only mentions Guy of Ibelin in passing. I can't see as it would be a very useful addition to the article. --Elonka 19:21, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

On page 811 of Sylvia Schein's article "Gesta Dei per Mongolos 1300. The genesis of a non-event", there is the following statement

According to Marino Sanodu and the "Templar of Tyre", Guy d'Ibelin the Lord of Beirut and Jaffa and John of Antioch went in 1299 to Byblos to join the king of Armenia who was there with Ghazan. On their arrival, they found that Ghazan had already left Syria and they left for Cyprus.

This is a perfectly good secondary source, with two connected primary sources (mentioned in Schein). Mathsci (talk) 00:30, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

References

Rudt de Collenberg

Rudt de Collenberg is one of the standard sources, but I think for some information he has been superseded by Hans Mayer. I can't remember the name of Mayer's article at the moment but he disproved some of Collenberg's conclusions, at least for the early Ibelins. For the later Ibelins (like Guy) I think he is still the usual source. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Does this help you any? (The Mayer reference isn't part of the preview, unfortunately, but maybe you have access to the hard copy.) Choess (talk) 16:22, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, I think I've found the reference: 'Carving up crusaders: the early Ibelins and Ramlas,' in Kedar, Mayer & Smail's Outremer. Choess (talk) 16:27, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that's the one. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)