Talk:Gymnastics at the 1904 Summer Olympics

Julius Lenhart

I have reverted the change of Lenhart's medals from AUT to USA. Our primary source for these articles, the IOC medal database, shows these medals attributed to USA. It is entirely likely that Lenhart was Austrian, as the reports from early Games are very sketchy (especially 1904). Nonetheless, as an uncited change, it has to be reverted. If a citation is found that shows Lenhart as Austrian, then we will still show the medal as USA's (unless the IOC source is updated too) with a footnote to explain the discrepancy. This is precisely the approach we took with the similar situation of Albert Coray in Athletics at the 1904 Summer Olympics. Andrwsc 03:14, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Sources showing Julius Lenhart as Austrian:

• de:Julius_Lenhart
• [1]
• [2]
• [3]
• [4]
• [5]

Albert Coray was French

• Mixed team at the 1904 Summer Olympics he is listed as French
• Albert Coray he is listed as French
• Athletics at the 1904 Summer Olympics 4 mile team race silver he is listed as French
• Athletics at the 1904 Summer Olympics Marathon he is listed as American

There is no sense to list the 4 mile team race silver as "Mixed team", when Coray is listed as American... So in one event he is French and in the next event he is American...

The IOC medal database is wrong in both cases. Lenhart was Austrian and Coray was French.Doma-w 09:15, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's precisely my point. The IOC medal database is still our primary reference with respect to medals and the derivative medal tables we also show. Even for contradictory cases like the ZZX medal for the team race but USA for the marathon, we still stick to the IOC source. However, we add as many footnotes as necessary to point out the apparently incorrect information. Andrwsc 16:36, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

So, when our primary reference shows wrong data, nevertheless we will copy the wrong data? Hmm... Wouldn't it be better to shown the right data and add a footnote with the newest research and reference and/or an information that the originally data is/was wrong? Doma-w 00:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not convinced that the IOC data is completely "wrong". In 1904, athletes at the Olympics did not compete for their nations as they do now. There is a fair amount of retroactive assignments to figure out which nations should get credit for medals, and they obviously made some judgement calls, some of which appear to be contradictory. We seem to have good data now that says that Lenhart is Austrian, but that doesn't mean that he represented his country at the Olympics. It looks like he was representing his Philadelphia-based gymnastics club more than anything else.

There is a good reason why I'm advocating this position. It is a very slippery slope that we would start down if we started re-assigning medals. For example, consider the situation of Sohn Kee-chung, a Korean competing for Japan under the Japanese name of "Kitei Son" in the 1936 Summer Olympics. If we set the precedent of over-riding the IOC source, then what's to stop someone with a pro-Korean POV of changing the 1936 results and medal table to attribute that medal for KOR instead of JPN? What we have now, showing JPN on the Athletics at the 1936 Summer Olympics page, and good explanatory text in Sohn's article, is the best way to handle this, in my opinion. Yet another example is Michel Théato, who won the marathon for FRA, not LUX, in athletics at the 1900 Summer Olympics.

Looking at several of the pages involved in this discussion, I see several places where we need to do some copyediting to clean things up. But I remain firmly convinced that we need to stick with the IOC with respect to the nation assignment for medals. I hope you agree! Andrwsc 03:04, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to say, that there is a big different between Lenhart and Sohn Kee-chung. Sohn Kee-chung was Korean, but Korea did not exist in 1936. So this is a political question. This is like Germany and Austria at the 1938 FIFA World Cup, politically Austria did not exist. Lenhart never had American citizanship or dual citizanship. He did not stay in America - he came back to Austria after a few years. I agree, that he primarily represented his Philadelphia-based (German!) gymnastics club, but I wouldn't like to say, that this makes him an American. The reason why I am still "fighting" for Lenhart is, that he is still the most sucessful Austrian competitor at the summer Olympics ever! (2 gold, 1 silver) Except Lenhart Austria has only three more competitors, who have won 2 gold medals at the summer Olympics (Hradetzky, Seisenbacher, Hagara).

I am sorry, but I am still confused, that in one list Albert Coray has a French flag and in the next list he has an American flag... And you are very right! Michel Théato is the same problem! Here: List of Olympic medalists in athletics (men) here he is listed with a Luxembourgian flag and here: Athletics at the 1900 Summer Olympics he is listed with a French flag... Doma-w 13:59, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree that we have some work to do to clean up those articles to make them consistent! And yes, there are some differences in the situations of many of these medalists. However, I think the one common thing that is that we do not modify the medal assignments on the main "Sport at the year Olympics" pages and we don't update the medal tables. We need to maintain that as though it was policy.

I think the first step with Julius Lenhart is to write an article about him and discuss his Austrian nationality there! Our debating about the status of a redlink is a bit strange, don't you think?  ;) Andrwsc 16:10, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you are right! So I started with Julius Lenhart. Hoping for your help! :-) Doma-w 20:01, 9 April 2007 (UTC)