Talk:H.R. 2449 (113th Congress)

Requested move 22 December 2014

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• To authorize the President to extend the term of the Agreement for Cooperation between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Republic of Korea Concerning Civil Uses of Nuclear Energy → House Resolution to extend civil nuclear cooperation with South Korea
• To amend title 10, United States Code, to require an Inspector General investigation of allegations of retaliatory personnel actions taken in response to making protected communications regarding sexual assault → ?
• To amend the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to maintain or replace certain facilities and structures for commercial recreation services at Smith Gulch in Idaho → ?
• To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act to extend through 2018 the authority of the Federal Election Commission to impose civil money penalties on the basis of a schedule of penalties → ?
• To authorize the Secretary of the Interior to take certain Federal lands located in El Dorado County, California, into trust for the benefit of the Shingle Springs Band of Miwok Indians → ?

– These are absurdly long titles that no one is ever going to type in doing a search for the relevant resolutions. We should steer away from the kind of super-long titles that Congress uses. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 20:10, 30 December 2014 (UTC) bd2412 T 19:22, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

• Support in spirit, but oppose doing this via RM. Nom should be bold, per WP:BRD; get it done and save us all a lot of time. Dicklyon (talk) 19:51, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
  • I would prefer to establish the precedent by discussion. bd2412 T 20:16, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
    • I see. But doesn't that border on WP:POINTy? Dicklyon (talk) 20:41, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
      • I find this WP:NOTPOINTy. (Proposing to move the articles to bad titles in order to garner opposition would be POINTy.) The objective of all RMs is to establish consensus. If someone presents a good, systematic way to name the articles over the course of the discussion, all the better. Dekimasuよ! 21:06, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
        • To be fair, I am absolutely certain that these pages must be moved, but not at all certain what would be the best title scheme to use for determining target titles. I think I have made a logical proposal for the first one, but perhaps someone else will come up with something better. bd2412 T 21:19, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• To authorize the closer of this move request to amend the titles in question for the benefit of Wikipedia, aye. Dekimasuよ! 20:10, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Ditto Dicklyon Red Slash 22:01, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment how about we call them House Resolution xyz ? (for a shorter name, and in lieu of anything better for the ones without other choices) -- 67.70.35.44 (talk) 23:47, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Absolutely Oppose bare use of "House Bill" or "House Resolution" number with no disambiguator: A reference to legislative resolutions, without specifying the legislature and legislative term, is always inappropriate and misleading. Even government agencies get this wrong: You'll see some reference like "to comply with H.B. 1234" and it turns out they mean H.B. 1234 from some Congress 30 years ago, and you can't figure out which one, because there have been 80 different Congresses that numbered up that far. Also, remember that there are many, many state legislatures that use the same category and numbering style. (Any articles with ambiguous titles like that should be renamed; they're likely to be confused with other things that are probably as notable than the article.) --Closeapple (talk) 05:58, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose proposed names: The current names aren't pretty, but since they're the closest things to most commonly used name we have, assuming that none of them have short titles in them. Renaming should only happen if there is another common name, not just a shorter description we made up, particularly since there may be multiple bills on the same general subject. Are these bills even notable? I'm not sure what the search engine reason would have to do with this: If someone is looking for that specific bill, they're either going to cut-and-paste or type part of the name they already know. It has to be in either the title or the article text, so that it does show up when people do try to match it. Changing the title just moves the match from the title to the article text. --Closeapple (talk) 05:36, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Let's try this:

  To authorize the President to extend the term of the Agreement for Cooperation between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Republic of Korea Concerning Civil Uses of Nuclear Energy → Support for United States-Republic of Korea Civil Nuclear Cooperation Act

  Turns out it has a name. This resolution was passed by the House (H.R. 2449) to the Senate, where for some reason it became S. 1901 and received the short title "Support for United States-Republic of Korea Civil Nuclear Cooperation Act" (for the record, that's with a hyphen, because nobody except a few Wikipedia editors use MOS:DASH in names), passed the Senate, and the President signed it into law, so it's actually a law (not just a bill) and has its own short title and is Pub. L. 113–81 (text) (PDF), 128 Stat. 1007, enacted February 12, 2014.

  To amend title 10, United States Code, to require an Inspector General investigation of allegations of retaliatory personnel actions taken in response to making protected communications regarding sexual assault

  If we have to, maybe House Resolution 1864 (113th United States Congress) — but it looks like this bill, which is H.R. 1864, will die in the United States Senate Committee on Armed Services when the 113th Congress ends 2 weeks from now, and there's no evidence of WP:GNG. Maybe it should just be redirected to Sexual assault in the United States military#Related legislation.

  To amend the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to maintain or replace certain facilities and structures for commercial recreation services at Smith Gulch in Idaho

  No better description than this — it's pretty much what this is. This article is longer than the bill! Maybe it should be merged and redirected to North Fork Salmon River or something. H.R. 4283 will die in the United States Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources in the next 2 weeks, never becoming law, and its whole content is to authorize lawnmowers and chainsaws and and backup electrical supply in a place (Smith Gulch) that doesn't even have its own Wikipedia article.

  To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act to extend through 2018 the authority of the Federal Election Commission to impose civil money penalties on the basis of a schedule of penalties

  Public Law 113-72 if we need to keep it. This should probably be merged and redirected to Federal Election Campaign Act. It was signed into law as Pub. L. 113–72 (text) (PDF) when the President signed it on 2013-12-26.

  To authorize the Secretary of the Interior to take certain Federal lands located in El Dorado County, California, into trust for the benefit of the Shingle Springs Band of Miwok Indians

  No better description than this — again, pretty much what it is. Pub. L. 113–127 (text) (PDF) signed into law 2014-07-16, but it seems like it's a very minor subtopic of Shingle Springs Band of Miwok Indians.

--Closeapple (talk) 08:05, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• Comment I think that an appropriate option might even be to lengthen the titles as follows:

United States proposed legislation: To authorize the President to extend the term of the Agreement for Cooperation between the Government of the United States of America and the Government of the Republic of Korea Concerning Civil Uses of Nuclear Energy

United States proposed legislation: To amend title 10, United States Code, to require an Inspector General investigation of allegations of retaliatory personnel actions taken in response to making protected communications regarding sexual assault

United States proposed legislation: To amend the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to maintain or replace certain facilities and structures for commercial recreation services at Smith Gulch in Idaho

United States proposed legislation: To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act to extend through 2018 the authority of the Federal Election Commission to impose civil money penalties on the basis of a schedule of penalties

United States proposed legislation: To authorize the Secretary of the Interior to take certain Federal lands located in El Dorado County, California, into trust for the benefit of the Shingle Springs Band of Miwok Indians

An alternate beginning might be "United States proposed federal legislation:..." To an extent I also think that long titles may pictographically represent a topic of a legal document.

GregKaye ✍♪ 10:57, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

• There is a hard limit to the length of article titles. I don't know what it is offhand, but I think that we are already approaching it. bd2412 T 17:39, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

bd2412, Is that a technical hard limit or based on any Wikipedia policy? I don't think that the application of WP:CONCISE applies to an addition of a category type prefix. GregKaye 10:33, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

The hard limit to which I referred is a technical hard limit. For example, Wikipedia can not support the full Fiona Apple title: "[[When the Pawn Hits the Conflicts He Thinks like a King What He Knows Throws the Blows When He Goes to the Fight and He'll Win the Whole Thing 'fore He Enters the Ring There's No Body to Batter When Your Mind Is Your Might so When You Go Solo, You Hold Your Own Hand and Remember That Depth Is the Greatest of Heights and If You Know Where You Stand, Then You Know Where to Land and If You Fall It Won't Matter, Cuz You'll Know That You're Right]]". The most that it will link from that title is "When the Pawn Hits the Conflicts He Thinks like a King What He Knows Throws the Blows When He Goes to the Fight and He'll Win the Whole Thing 'fore He Enters the Ring There's No Body to Batter When Your Mind Is Your Might so When You Go Solo, You Hold". Of course, there are more things to consider than just hard limits. If you go to the article, To amend the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to authorize the Secretary of the Interior to maintain or replace certain facilities and structures for commercial recreation services at Smith Gulch in Idaho and look at the title at the top of the page, it doesn't exactly lend itself to readability. Long titles like these in our default fonts (which cater well to our more characteristic titles) are likely to give our readers eyestrain and headaches. bd2412 T 16:57, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Yeah, this could have been done boldly, but nothing wrong with going through the "formal" process. --IJBall (talk) 03:33, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support proposed and for that are question marked House Resolution xxx (xxxth United States Congress) seems appropriate.--Labattblueboy (talk) 14:20, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
• Support shortening and reasonable attempts at consistency. This reminds me very much of Talk:United States House resolution on persecution of the Rohingya people in Burma, where I think we can through a useful discussion to a good result (notability questions aside). It would be nice to be consistent with that decision. I haven't immediately read this carefully enough to see it there is a useful precedent. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:51, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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