Talk:HSV-2 Swift/Archive 1

Archive 1

UAE possessive form

I believe the possessive of United Arab Emirates is United Arab Emirates'. See for example [1] and [2]. Kendall-K1 (talk) 00:51, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Old question (restored)

What does "non-commissioned" mean here? --Gbleem 23:58, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

"non-commissioned" hasn't been in this article since 2014. Since it was leased by the MSC, it wasn't a commissioned US Navy ship. --Dual Freq (talk) 18:46, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I was just putting it back in so that it could be properly put into an archive later rather than being thrown out with the trash. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 18:52, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

It's a 10 year old question from a user no longer on wikipedia about an item not even in the article. --Dual Freq (talk) 19:01, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Now operated by the UAE's National Marine Dredging Company

According to this article http://www.janes.com/article/53274/hsv-2-turns-up-off-aden. Anotherclown (talk) 09:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

On a side note, though she was flying the UAE flag when she was sunk, her port of registry was still Majuro. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 21:10, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Are the reports of her destruction exaggerated?

http://english.almanar.com.lb/49399

Hcobb (talk) 13:19, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Video of attack is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaMSb_7_3cM looks like serious if not ultimately fatal damage 2001:4DD5:3C76:0:F87A:1F57:5F12:4170 (talk) 18:56, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Awaiting reliable media sources. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:51, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Reports indicate she sank with the loss of at least 22 crew, some of them Australian citizens. The UAE may have been able to rescue some civilian passengers but this has not been, repeat not independently confirmed. The UAE seems to be in full damage control/panic mode, so press releases from them should be taken with caution at best. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 10:08, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Correction to last, it was apparently Saudi forces that supposedly rescued some survivors. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 10:11, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

She's a write off at the bottom of the ocean the video footage is here. Cheers. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8f4_1475393638 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.174.63.245 (talk) 11:44, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

That's the same video. Even assuming it is the ship discussed in this article, it shows no sinking. On fire / heavily damaged does not mean sunk. It may be correct, but we still await reliable sources. Thanks anyway. --Dual Freq (talk) 11:56, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

themercury.com.au article basically re-reports competing claims of sinking or incident, but adds that Incat managing director had no information beyond the internet reports. Being in Tasmania, and connected to the builder, I would think they would have reason to report on the ship as they have in the past. --Dual Freq (talk) 15:35, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree, not a good sign. It implies that the Swift has indeed sunk, and that the Saudis/UAE are keeping any survivors incommunicado while they try to find a way to spin this latest loss (apparently there have been a number [11 as of February of this year] of Arab coalition vessels, mostly Saudi, being sunk by forces allied with the Revolutionary Committee of Yemen within the last eleven months). Ceannlann gorm (talk) 16:35, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

US State Department statement, 2 Oct 2016: "The United States strongly condemns the Houthi forces' unprovoked attack against a UAE vessel operating near the Bab al-Mandeb yesterday." Nothing about a sinking yet, probably fairly soon I would think, especially if some of the crew was from Australia. --Dual Freq (talk) 02:13, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

This seems legitimate. However I don't think twitter feeds, even 'official' ones with pictures, are considered RS, so I'll just put back in mention of the C-802 back in the article for the moment. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 18:38, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. It doesn't look to me like @MbKS15 is an official account, so that caption is not necessarily correct. WAM's english page has nothing, but their ar lang ver has a brief story with 5 photos, one is an interior photo. If Google translate can be trusted, it says nothing about a C802 and says insurance will cover the loss. Perhaps this is a cruise missile incident, but there are quite a few logistical issues. They don't just fit in the back of a light pickup truck, cranes are not unusual for handling cruise missiles. (C-802 is 6.39 metres (21.0 ft) long and 715 kilograms (1,576 lb), without a launcher or container.) There is also a risk of the missile radar or other seeker selecting the incorrect target. Cruise missile might be true, but small boats with multiple anti-tank rockets seems plausible to me as the Fox story claimed. We do need a reliable source on this beyond twitter. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:53, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

is/was

I don't think it's appropriate to change everything to past tense at least until we have confirmation from RS that this ship was sunk. This has been changed a couple of times, and I have changed it back. Kendall-K1 (talk) 01:32, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

@Kendall-K1: I note that the reference is tagged as unreliable. Reuters] is a RS, and mentions an attack on an Australian built catamaran, but does not name Swift. Mjroots (talk) 14:04, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

@Kendall-K1: There's also this video on Youtube. Mjroots (talk) 14:49, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree, I havent found any conclusive evidence that the ship was sunk. If Swift is taken to port and then scrapped, her fate should be listed as scrapped rather than sunk. I believe that we should stick with "is" for the moment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SamHolt6 (talk • contribs) 17:37, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

More References on the Brigade 17 Dhubab

The only Brigade in the Dhubab area loyal to Saleh-Houthis is the Brigade 17 located East of Dhubab, its mentioned in the UAE media in an article from October 2015:

“We also destroyed Al Houthi forces inside Brigade 17 and arrested some of them. We advanced after coalition warplanes and cannons strafed the area,” the general said, adding that "many" UAE troops have actively taken part in the operation.

On wikimapia the location corresponds with Dhubab Brigade 17 Tunnel Bunker Network — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcusT202 (talk • contribs) 00:15, October 11, 2016 (UTC)

That source is a year old and says the complex was taken back from rebel forces at that time. You need a reliable source that says it relates to Swift. Otherwise it is a original research / synthesis. Wikimapia is user generated content. Anyone can put anything there with no sources or factual basis, wikipedia can't use it as a source. --Dual Freq (talk) 00:24, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

References

Reported destination

According to Sputnik and Al Jazeera the Houthis claim that she was en-route to Mokha when she was sunk. I am of half mind whether to add this nugget now, or wait until the sinking is finally officially confirmed. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 06:19, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

I've added a "cn" tag. You didn't cite a source in the article, and the Sputnik story you linked above does not mention Aden. Also note that it says the ship was approaching the coast of Mokha, not that Mokha was its destination. Kendall-K1 (talk) 12:44, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

The information on Aden being the destination for the Swift came from the official press releases from the coalition command, i.e. the Command of Coalition Forces Supporting Legitimacy, in Yemen. Supposedly she was en-route to provide "medical and relief aid and evacuate wounded and injured civilians in order to complete their treatment outside Yemen". The conflicting report that she was headed for Mokha/Mocha comes from the Houthis' own official statements (Google Translate - note that due to a glitch I haven't been able to link to their initial statement of the 01/10/16). The phrase "as it approached the coast of Mohka" has been generally interpreted as referring to the approaches to Mocha. I'll see about putting the aforementioned references in the article when I get a chance. I haven't had any luck yet creating a permanent link to the Houthis' first statement on the attack. Might ultimately have to go with an untranslated link there. Ceannlann gorm (talk) 20:54, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

I don't have access to the full versions of these articles, but IHS Janes has a couple new articles today on this subject. 1 and 2. The 2nd mentions the AIS track, but omits a direction of travel saying: "IHS Markit's Automatic Identification System (AIS) track for Swift showed that it was in the international shipping lane near Mocha (approximately 20-25 km from the Yemeni coast) when contact was lost at 00:28 GMT on 1 October." As far as original research that can't be used in the article, the last freely available AIS track from marinetraffic.com shows the ship south of the strait, 8 hours prior to the attack, heading north at around 10 knots. The ship was apparently attacked some 70 or 80 nm north of there, 8 hours or so later indicating it was northbound. The AIS track indicates origin of Aden, travelling west then north. We'd need a reliable source that says that though. I don't know why they would bother lying since anyone can read an AIS track. Discussion on fleetmon gives a last know AIS position of 13°06′N 043°07′E. Unfortunately, this is also not a WP:RS, but is consistent with what Janes said about the location being north of the strait and in the shipping lane near Mocha. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Food for thought re:destination / mission. From Janes earlier this year, UAE Vessels in Eritea, late 2015. Swift was photographed with other troop landing ships at Assab. War on the Rocks had an early Sept 2016 article discussing UAE bases in the horn of Africa saying "In mid-July 2015, the Emirati battlegroup began landing at the Little Aden oil terminal. Emirati Al-Futaisi-class landing ships and other landing craft including the Swift, a former U.S. Navy vessel, made repeated runs between Assab port and Aden. In October and November 2015, Assab served as the logistics hub for the deployment of three 450-man Sudanese mechanized battalions to Aden."

mAlso, a Janes article Binnie, Jeremy (28 July 2015), Janes reported in July 2015 that Swift may have been used may be using it to support an amphibious operation in Yemen. --Dual Freq (talk) 02:15, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

The first of those links recommends checking with Sean for some of the details. MPS1992 (talk) 20:35, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

IDK, but I think I would give IHS Janes the benefit of the doubt on bad proofreading versus being blatantly inaccurate. --Dual Freq (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Three news links of possible use (all 5 October 2016):

• "Crew members of UAE ship attacked by Houthis tell of terrifying raid" (The National)
• "Yemen conflict: UAE says Houthis attacked civilian ship" (BBC)
• "Attack on civilian ship is in clear violation of int'l charters and threatens freedom of navigation: UAE Foreign Ministry" (Emirates News Agency)

—RP88 ^(talk) 23:29, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Here you can see photo with post attack damage http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/f095224e9df71bf151f00dae04ec02bc?width=650

Definitely not sunk, but obviously crippled. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.121.222 (talk) 17:51, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Another angle with visible damage http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/ae7bac4e27aae6255a8287fe00d16512?width=650

Source http://www.themercury.com.au/news/tasmania/incatbuilt-hsv2-swift-battered-but-not-sunk-in-rocket-attack/news-story/a84a2adfa91fa5d307b3cf72697d6b2f — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.121.222 (talk) 17:54, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

Further - crew account on the attack http://www.thenational.ae/uae/crew-members-of-uae-ship-attacked-by-houthis-tell-of-terrifying-raid

No casualties reported, only injuries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.188.121.222 (talk) 18:05, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding sources that talk about destination. Houthi said Swift was approaching Mokha, but did not say that was the destination. Emirati military said it was on a trip from Aden.[3] WAM said it was on a trip to deliver aid to Aden, but not whether it was on its way to, or coming from, Aden.[4] So I can't find anything that supports Aden as the destination, or anything that says there is confusion about its destination. Kendall-K1 (talk) 03:07, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Fair use images

While I would very much like to use an image of the ship after it was damaged, we can not at this time. The only images right now appear to be copyrighted press images from UAE's WAM.[5] and since the ship has not been scrapped or sunk, it is still available to be photographed by someone else and released for free. If the ship is scrapped or sunk or otherwise removed from a situation where it can be photographed, then the image can be added under fair use. Putting a replaceable fair use image in this article will actually discourage someone from taking a photo and releasing under a free license. Using it violates Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria #1 and #2. #1 since it is replaceable and #2 because a press/media org is the source. Cropping the image or taking it from someone else that stole it does not remove the original copyright. --Dual Freq (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Repairs

The ship has been towed to Greece and is now in the possession of Seajets, a ferry company that already operates a number of older Incat ships. Looking at photos of just how heavily damaged it is (linked in the last two references in the article), I'm wondering if any shipyard in the east Mediterranean has the expertise and experience to do the job well. Welding aluminium ships is a fairly technical skill and while a number of companies built large fast aluminium catamarans in the past, only Incat and their arch-rival Austal are still in the business of building them today. It will be interesting to hear how the repairs are done and if they try to do it at Seajets Greek base with experts flown in from somewhere like Tasmania or if they tow the ship to another location for repairs or if they just end up scrapping it. Bogong (talk) 01:45, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

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