Talk:Hafsa Sultan

Name

The mother of Suleyman is usually known as "Hafsa Sultan", without the "Ayşe" part. I will move the article's name if there is no opposition.--Phso2 (talk) 19:33, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

To editor Phso2: See A'isha (name) for more on the name, "Ayşe".  OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine  02:54, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

To editor Paine Ellsworth:Yes, very well, but...has this something related to the current problem of the article's title? Or is this just for information?--Phso2 (talk) 06:49, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

It was just an FYI, Phso2, in case you hadn't seen it yet. I stumbled across the page while I was researching the "current problem".  OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine  14:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. The target page might be better off as a disambiguation page as suggested by the proposer, so a new multi-move request should be opened. Suggested might be something like:

• Ayşe Hafsa Sultan → Hafsa Sultan (wife of Selim I)
• Hafsa Sultan → Hafsa Sultan (daughter of Selim I)

Then Hafsa Sultan can be converted into a disambiguation page as suggested. Several of its backlinks will then need to be disambiguated. In order to ensure that these page moves are not controversial, a bot will place an appropriate notice at Talk:Hafsa Sultan. To get a wider consensus it is suggested that all of the involved WikiProjects be notified on their talk pages, as well. (closed by non-admin page mover)  OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine  01:57, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

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Ayşe Hafsa Sultan → Hafsa Sultan – Common name, found in each and every reliable source on the subject and panels on Istanbul monuments. The previous name's origin is obscure but is perhaps an OR from personal websites. Phso2 (talk) 19:22, 27 May 2016 (UTC) --Relisted. RGloucester — ☎ 17:44, 4 June 2016 (UTC) --Relisting. Omni Flames (talk) 00:20, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. Note that there was already an article at Hafsa Sultan before the proposer moved it. I've moved it back awaiting the end of this RM. --

  The redirection could have become a disambiguation page if this page was moved to smthg like Hafsa Sultan (consort of Selim I, is this move back really useful?--Phso2 (talk) 16:07, 8 June 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 13 June 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move both per rough consensus. (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk · ctb) 01:03, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

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• Ayşe Hafsa Sultan → Hafsa Sultan (wife of Selim I)
• Hafsa Sultan → Hafsa Sultan (daughter of Selim I)

– Common name for Selim I's consort and mother of Suleyman I is simply "Hafsa Sultan"; it is found in each and every reliable source on the subject and panels on Istanbul monuments. The previous name's origin is obscure, perhaps an OR from personal websites or a confusion with Ayşe Hatun (wife of Selim I). Phso2 (talk) 14:07, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

• Support. Although this article has been titled "Ayşe Hafsa Sultan" since it was first created in 2008, even the very first reference source cited, The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Ottoman Empire, refers to this subject throughout as Hafsa Sultan. The common given name "Ayşe" is used in that book on two pages and appears to refer to two other women. As to the second page move, it will free the "Hafsa Sultan" page to be a disambiguation page with no primary topic per WP:TWODABS.  OUR Wikipedia (not "mine")! Paine  00:33, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
• Comment (as invited): I repaired the page history of Hafsa Sultan after closing Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2015_May_28#Hafsa_Sultan, but have no particular knowledge of this topic. The proposal seems sensible. – Fayenatic London 07:25, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support. This might also help to distinguish her from Ayşe Hatun (wife of Selim I). We shouldn't drop the name Ayşe from the article, whithout a definitive source. It is not OR or from a website. I checked on books.google.com and she is named frequently "Ayşe Hafsa" in books going back as far as 1946. Also most other wikipedias name her "Ayşe Hafsa", only French and ukrainian name her just "Hafsa" Arved (talk) 08:25, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

  You are right, it can't be OR nor from a website; still, I only find books in Turkish with this name, whose authors' reliability is difficult to ascertain (note that it doesn't seem to be a peculiarity of Turkish historiography, since Uluçay's classic book "Padişahların Kadınları ve Kızları" calls her "Hafsa Sultan". That other wikis use Ayşe Hafsa is no wonder, since they are almot always copies of the English article; the Turkish article was created as "Hafsa Sultan" then renamed shortly afterwards.--Phso2 (talk) 11:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

• Her officially recognized name is HAFSA SULTAN without AYŞE.

  

  The entrance of her türbe inside the courtyard of Yavuz Selim Mosque at Fatih-Istanbul. Her name is written as Hafsa Sultan.

  212.253.113.183 (talk) 21:27, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
  • I have reduced the size of the image on this page. Click on the thumbnail to enlarge the image. – Fayenatic London 12:47, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

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Origin not disputed

It's a bit silly to say her origin is disputed, and then to go on to say that only tourist guidebooks and popular histories say she was the daughter of a Crimean Khan. This is not her origin being disputed, this is the myth of her Crimean origins not having died out yet. I'm rephrasing the sentence. Chamboz (talk) 15:17, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The origin is disputed. It could be a myth but there is no concrete evidence to suggest she was a Christian. Both sides need to presented. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:8405:FA00:6D25:845D:52EB:1EE1 (talk) 19:38, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

As far as I have seen, there's an academic consensus that she wasn't the daughter of the Crimean Khan. Specialists on this topic, like Leslie Peirce and Alan Fisher, are very clear about this. All the secondary sources you cited were by non-specialists, like Reşat Kasaba, who is an expert on the Ottoman Empire in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries; and Brian Glyn Williams, who has apparently written on the Crimeans but again with a focus on the modern age. If you can cite anyone who actually specializes on the period in question and has done research in that area in the way that Fisher and Peirce do, by all means I'd be happy to see it. Chamboz (talk) 19:48, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Chamboz, I highly respect Peirce's work; my intention is only to remove the bias tone of "certainty" when there clearly is uncertainty with regards to the Harem.

This is not Peirce's theory. This appears to be Uluçay's theory, based on waqf documents and inscriptions. The Crimean theory is of Western origin and is not based on documentary evidences; as Chamboz writes, it simply has not died out yet, because it is older and more appealing (Crimean princess vs obscure slave), but there doesn't seem to exist a real controversy (ie a scholarly debate where evidences are brought forth and discussed).--Phso2 (talk) 21:20, 27 September 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 14 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) NNADIGOODLUCK (Talk|Contribs) 10:13, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

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Hafsa Sultan (wife of Selim I) → Hafsa Sultan – This page was moved to its current title to disambiguate between Selim I's wife and his daughter. However, the article about Selim's daughter has been deleted and does not exist anymore, and it turns out that the daughter's name has been recorded as Hafize not Hafsa in sources; thus this attempt for disambiguation was unnecessary in the first place, as Hafize and Hafsa are totally different names. Keivan.f^Talk 01:28, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

• Support as unnecessary disambiguation, but perhaps add a hatnote pointing to Hafsa Sultan Caravanserai. BegbertBiggs (talk) 12:24, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.