Talk:Halloween/Archive 11

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Please Read This

Yesterday this article's talk page got a lot of query and additions (it was Halloween after-all). That said, I have consolidated about fifteen categories under the "To Do List", "Additional Proposals", and "Noticed Mistakes & Discussion Thereof" categories. I have made sub-categories or starred each previous category. If you still believe your post requires a full category, please move it and then expand. It was not my intention to insult anyone's ideas or downgrade them to sub-categories because I do not think they are important. I just felt like twelve categories in one day that could easily be consolidate to three would make easier reading and analysis for all. Thanks, (Nicolaususry 14:50, 1 November 2007 (UTC))

To Do List

Here is a list of things that need to be done to this article. If you do not have time to fix it yourself but want to leave a notation for someone else, leave it here.

  'i want to know who started Halloween thank you   

New Gallup Poll

A new Gallup poll on Halloween has statistical information that can be used as citations for existing parts of the article, or to add new information to the article. In particular, the poll's finding that Christians and non-Christians celebrate the holiday in virtually the same numbers. — Walloon 06:28, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Dark history of the eve - Although not often documented... and certainly not a popular thought among the Christian majority... Halloween has a very dark history in some parts of the world. Historically, some areas of the world considered the Catholic vigil of the day before All Saints' Day to be a time to cleanse the community of anything which would sully the holiday. It was therefore an excuse to roust any non-Christians :(pagans, Jews, Gypsies) in the community or nearby, an excuse for pogroms. Costumes are a means of hiding one's identity after all. (What? You thought the KKK came up with the idea of wearing sheets while harassing people they did not like?) And going house to house, extorting bribes to prevent vandalism ("trick or treat") is also tied to this.

A little bit of this history should sneak into this page so we're not all fooled into thinking this has always been candy and fun for the kids. Not so long ago in "the old country," this was a deadly serious business. Signed - Dan in Lexington, MA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.115.113.144 (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Why you care? for me (and maybe for others) this is just a party in wich childrens ask for candies and teenagers use to have theme parties. There's nottin wrong in give a candy to a little boy and theres nottin wrong in hang out with someone wearing a monster outfit.

It's just a plan to make people spend money in candies and costumes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.248.40.19 (talk) 23:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Grammar Suggestion

In the History section, the sentence stating: "The festivals would frequently involve bonfires, where the bones of slaughtered livestock were thrown" should instead read "The festivals would frequently involve bonfires, into which the bones of slaughtered livestock were thrown." Thanks, Lexrst (talk) 19:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC) I fixed it. (Videogamer765)

United States public service campaign?

On "Wait Wait, Don't Tell Me," the NPR word-oriented quiz show, it was stated that the most successful public-service campaign in history was one that took place in the 1930s, encouraging children to go from door to door and beg for candy on Hallowe'en, instead of committing pranks and vandalism. Interesting if true... deserves more investigation... Dpbsmith (talk) 10:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sources Needed

• Find me a source for the sentence "It was a day of religious festivities in various northern European Pagan traditions, until Popes Gregory III and Gregory IV moved the old Christian feast of All Saints' Day from May 13 to November 1." Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
• Find good sources on the actual HISTORY of Halloween. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:34, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

While I have not yet found any actual sources, I do want to point out that when I googled origins of Halloween, all of the other websites out there seem to agree that it was Pope Boniface IV, not the Pope Gregory's, who instituted All Saints' Day as Nov 1. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.84.75.28 (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Archiving of talk pages needed

Please would some editor familiar with the article archive any appropriate threads? Thank you! Benjiboi 21:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Stormin' Foreman 23:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

To Do List

I was going to add {{todo}} but I realized it was more complicated than the time I have right now will allow.--otherlleft (talk) 15:12, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Additional Proposals

If you have a suggestion for this article but need clarification from someone else who knows more about the subject before moving it to the "To Do List" first, then please place it here for consideration.

• Bonfires and fireworks are illegal in Ireland? First I've heard of it. I'm adding a to those assertions. Markfiend 13:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I propose that Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes" be added to the list of fiction. "October is a rare month for boys" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.191.155.98 (talk) 00:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• I propose that "fear" be added under "black" on the "orange and black color associations table". I am nowhere near an expert on this subject, and would like feedback on this suggestion before I make any change. Thanks, (Nicolaususry 18:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC))

• changing the assertion that there is no proof that Christians purposefully turned Pagan holidays into Christian ones. "In 601 A.D. Pope Gregory the First issued a now famous edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert. Rather than try to obliterate native peoples' customs and beliefs, the pope instructed his missionaries to use them: if a group of people worshipped a tree, rather than cut it down, he advised them to consecrate it to Christ and allow its continued worship." ~http://www.loc.gov/folklife/halloween.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hythlae (talk • contribs) 21:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

• locking this article due to recent vandalism?

The Pope Gregory letter does not mention adopting pagan holidays. On the contrary, it specifically suggests that pagans who are concerned about not having their traditional feasts should instead have feasts on Christian holy days. "Let them therefore, on the day of the dedication of their churches, or on the feast of the martyrs whose relics are preserved in them, build themselves huts around their one-time temples and celebrate the occasion with religious feasting." He mentions nothing about tree worship. He does recommend converting temples into churches but first removing all pagan idols etc. Letter here http://www.britannia.com/history/docs/mellitus.html Dmottram (talk) 18:11, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Noticed Mistakes & Discussion Thereof

Incorrect Pronunciation

• The pronunciation for púicíní is most certainly not 'poocheeny', but rather 'pookeeny'. This appears to be a confusion with the Italian name Pucini. In fact púicíní is rooted from 'púca' meaning a variety of fairy, an -íní is the plural derivative meaning 'small fairies'. References: Púca (Wikipedia), Games and Other Activities (Wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.13 (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• There's another problem, Scotland is not indented properly in the "Around the World" section which also throw off the bullet points that follow it. 82.11.186.14 01:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• "In the ninth century, the Church measured the day as starting at sunrise, in accordance with the Florentine calendar" -- as following the link confirms, the Church measured the day starting at sunset, not sunrise! Please update.199.43.19.222 11:49, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• Irish-American Appropriation - As usual, we see another instance in this article of the general phenomenon where anything to which the term "Celtic" can be attached is missappropriated on behalf of the Irish, presumably by misty-eyed Americans indulging in their customary wish-fulfillment 217.37.221.49 11:22, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• History Reversion - I'm reverting the history intro to an earlier version. The current one originally added by Copeland2119 sounds like neo-pagan fluffiness. I've never heard of "the Celtic Goddess Eiseria" and it was unsourced. Earthnut 06:58, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

• This article is not alone on the web assuming that Celtic = Irish. General web sources state that Halloween is derived from an ancient Celtic festival, Samhain, which was celebrated in all Celtic lands. There is little evidence that the festival is a Celtic festival at all - and still less an Irish festival. The more likely source of Halloween is derived from The three day Catholic festival - All Hallows Eve, All Hallows Day (or all Saints Day) and All Souls Day. At the time of reformation in the sixteenth century, the Protestants denied the Catholic belief in purgatory and the idea that living humans could help dead souls get to heaven through their prayer. The still very catholic populous were still understandably concerned about the souls of their departed relatives and the whole festival was thrust underground. It is not surprising that the holiday took on associations with the occult or demonic given the strong link to the dead and the strong disapproval of the Church of England. Once the connection with praying for dead ancestors in purgatory was lost, the evening took on more sinister tones in the popular imagination. The dead souls who were welcomed home on All Hallows Eve in medieval Catholic times came to be seen as restless spirits to be feared. The early Halloween was probably brought across to what is now the US by the earliest of migrants from England - including all the paraphernalia we now associate with the festival - jack o'lanterns, trick or treat (derived from the practice of providing soul cakes to the poorest in the community). Halloween as we see it today is a true American tradition - irrespective of it's original source! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 (talk) 00:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• 'Other western countries embraced the holiday in the late twenty first century': Wow! Is this like a future version of wikipedia? how do you already know what's going to happen at the end of the twenty first century? Seriously, I find it hard to believe that thas sort of rubbish was let past. MDP 220.253.151.172 (talk) 01:10, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Additional Information (Ireland)

In Ireland in particular the West we used to sing a song when doing the "trick or treating". It goes as follows: "Christmas is coming and the geese are getting fat, please put a penny in the old mans hat, if you haven't got a penny a h'penney will do, if you haven't got a h'penny God Bless you." This would be sung when the door bell was rung and the owner of the house opened to see a collection of children dressed up as witches, wizards etc. After all the rounds of the houses were done we used to then empty our collection bags and begin to count how many sweets, nuts and indeed pennies we had collected. The night would finish off with us going down with ma and da to see the bonfire.

Hey! I remember that rhyme...but the Dublin version ended "if you haven't got a h'penny then God help you." (Sarah777 12:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

That song was also traditionally sung in England (and perhaps other places). I don't know where it originated.--81.153.87.45 21:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

As a kid in England I used to sing "Sunday Bloody Sunday" - that must mean that this song is an English song. This childs nursery ryhme is certainly of English origin (hence the ha'penny referenc). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.107.234.2 (talk) 00:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

This is just a well known English nursery rhyme - a,ong with all the others. I suggest nothing to do with Ireland.

PeterDP

Upper age of trick-or-treating

"A child usually "grows out of" trick-or-treating at around age twelve. Trick-or-treating by teenagers is accepted but generally discouraged by those handing out candy. Teenagers and adults instead often celebrate Halloween with costume parties, bonfire parties, staying home to give out candy, listening to Halloween music, watching horror movies or scaring people. However, lately teenagers, especially girls, "grow out" of trick or treating when they go to college. It is beginning to be considered "cool" to go trick or treating for a minimal amount of time (one or two hours) in large groups and in costumes and then head to a party with a more revealing costume."

This whole section is defiantly NOT wikipedia standard and defiantly needs revision —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanahead (talk • contribs) 19:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"Defiantly" or "definitely"? — Walloon 21:25, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL! Both!(Sarah777 21:39, 7 October 2007 (UTC))

Defiantly... it seems like it is a teenager telling other teenager what to do to be cool, it just doesn't seem mature. The first part is okay though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryanahead (talk • contribs) 17:13, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, even though it is "immature" to have that article there, it seems pointless as well as it doesn't really have any significance to the article. If there was a law against going trick or treating then maybe lol. I am going to delete this unless anyone has any objections? Signed: pa-merynaten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.224.245 (talk) 18:51, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so - in the UK, most people who trick or treat are over the age of 12. Get your facts write Esc luver 17:59, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts — right? — Walloon 18:06, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Is it worth adding that in the UK, trick-or-treaters are as likely to be met with verbal abuse as candy due to the widely held belief that we in the UK are not "effin' yanks" and neither are the trick-or-treaters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.188.238.252 (talk) 10:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC) Similarly in Australia! Lyn50 20:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I think this is well worth adding actually. In fact I don't like the way the article makes it sound as though "Many Australian families are celebrating Halloween now". Do any Australians actually know any families who decorate up their house and things? All I ever saw was a few kids hoping to score free sweets out of it and you're right, these people will often be met by abuse 70.189.213.149 (talk) 18:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Does this men that I as a young 60-year-old can´t go trick-or treating? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.176.237.1 (talk) 12:38, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

"Before indoor plumbing was ubiquitous, tipping over or displacing outhouses was a popular form of vandalism." As most outhouses in England were (and still are) made of brick, this statement seems suspect, to say the least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.245.32.11 (talk) 02:57, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Does this "mean" or "men"? LOL. Seriously though, in the part of Canada where I live, kids usually go trick-or-treating for their last time at around 13. We really should include the upper limit for different countries, but we would also need a reliable source. Usually adult costumes are for those who either accompany their children or for ones who give out candy, but I'm not sure. Can we have a colour-coded map of where the upperlimitage for people TOTing during Halloween? That would be helpful. Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 21:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

FA

October 31'st is coming up fast, i think we should get this article up to FA status! EvilHom3r 00:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

It would (will, if people are game) take a lot of work. This article needs a lot of help. We would also most likely be working under semi-protected status, as we're now entering the time when this article gets hit hard with vandalism. Just look at the logs from last year, to see what we're in for. I'm potentially game, but just sayin'. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to post that same suggestion. I think that it might be possible to reach GA status before October 31. We need to get to work on it quickly. I'm going to post some suggestions and I will need everyone willing to try to work fast to get the suggestions done. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to help tidy up this article, but I can't because when I log in the article is still locked. I think it's because most of the time i forget to log in and all my contributions just show my IP address. Anyway, does anyone know how I can go about applying to become an "established" user or do I simply have to remember to log in from now on? Dennisc24 17:51, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, You must always log in, otherwise Wikipedia can't be sure if you're established or not. The page is protected from IP editors because they account for most vandalism and because, since it's Halloween, a lot of vandals will want to add nonsense to this article. Wikidudeman ^(talk) 19:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"Human Sacrifices"

I have neither the necessary privileges nor the relevant knowledge to edit a page on Halloween, but the section fittingly titled "Human Sacrifices" is very much below Wikipedia standards. In particular, the sentence regarding one Rowan Williams looks like some sort of personal attack rather than factual accounting. It would be helpful for the community if someone were to bring that section up to Wikipedia standards (new title and all), if indeed it belongs as a section at all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WeSpeakSunshine (talk • contribs) 06:09, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

That section has been reverted for copyvio reasons - it would have been removed for NPOV reasons otherwise. DenisMoskowitz 12:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hallowe'en in Scotland

The town of Kilmarnock in Scotland is (as far as I know) the only place in the world to celebrate Hallowe'en on the last Friday of October instead of the traditional 31st of October. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.26.185.35 (talk) 10:29, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Night Of Light - reclaiming Hallowe'en for the church

May I suggest adding the following text and link to the Religious Perspectives paragraph?

In recent years, some Roman Catholics in Great Britain have sought to reclaim Hallowe'en for the church by holding Night Of Light vigils across the country. This has had the endorsement of Bishop Ambrose and an official Roman Catholic Exorcist in Great Britain.

Claim surely, rather than reclaim?! (Sarah777 19:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC))