Talk:Hanni (singer)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Hanni is not dual national

Latest comment: 4 months ago29 comments4 people in discussion

There is consensus between the participants to use the "Vietnamese–Australian" description. For any further changes pertaining to the description, please create a new discussion to establish a new consensus in accordance with the CCC policy.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article that says she is misleading has no real evidence that she is a dual national. She is of Vietnamese ethnicity but is born in Australia. She has never lived in Vietnam, so she can not be a Vietnamese national but only a Australian national. https://www.aph.gov.au/~/media/Committees/economics_ctte/estimates/sup_1516/Treasury/answers/SBT148-150_Ludwig_Attachment.pdf states if she is born in Australia, she is of Australian national/citzenship.

There is no evidence that she is a Vietnamese dual national with Australia. Especially being born in 2004. Her parents were of Australian citizenship when Hanni was born. So it is impossible for her to be other than an Australian citzen.

The original author of the korean entertainment news article is only one only article that states this misinformation. It could be a korean to english translation error or a article to stir up controversy but there are no facts or evidence to prove that Hanni Pham is a dual nationality. Hence the reference is removed since its is false regarding her single Australian nationality Lightningwhitefox (talk) 12:06, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

This says she's a dual national. You need a reliable source that says she's not a dual national - we only go by what sources expressly say. You cannot work it out through your own knowledge and research - that's prohibited under Wikipedia's policies. See WP:OR. DeCausa (talk) 13:08, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox According to WP:VERIFY, quote "In the English Wikipedia, verifiability means people using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source. Its content is determined by previously published information rather than editors' beliefs, opinions, experiences, or previously unpublished ideas or information. Even if you are sure something is true, it must have been previously published in a reliable source before you can add it". The Korea Times (removed 6RR via revision: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) is not the only source stating the subject as dual nationality; there are multiple reliable sources of similar reputability regardless of languages with the same information. However, per WP:CITEBOMB, we (the editors that contributed to Hanni (singer)) don't include all of them here. Therefore, the statement you made "There is no evidence that she is a Vietnamese dual national with Australia. Especially being born in 2004. Her parents were of Australian citizenship when Hanni was born. So it is impossible for her to be other than an Australian citzen" contradicts the VERIFY policy. Additionally, your rationale, quote from edit summary "I am an Australian Vietnamese like Hanni and know that if she is born here, she can't be dual a national with Vietnam" falls under Wikipedia:ORIGINAL RESEARCH. As stated in ORIGINAL RESEARCH, quote "On Wikipedia, original research means material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists ... To demonstrate that you are not adding original research, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article and directly support the material being presented".

@DeCausa FYI, the latest revision currently contradicts your reply due to prevent WP:3RR violation from the involved editors. Pinging @Btspurplegalaxy should you wish to comment on this topic that you reverted on earlier. Also pinging @Poirot09 and @Dumbcat79, whom has the highest contributions to this article for their comments, if the deleted materials including the source should be restored (if not rollback yet) or if the materials including the source should be deleted (if rollbacked). — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:19, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox is correct. The Korea Times is not an authoritative source. Where is the Korea Times citation source claiming she holds Vietnamese citizenship? She holds Australian citizenship only until there is definitive proof from a reputable source which provides clear evidence she holds Vietnamese citizenship. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 09:29, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 I would suggest that you read my reply above again as your comment was already answered above hence I won't repeat myself. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 09:34, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

"The Korea Times (removed 6RR via revision: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) is not the only source stating the subject as dual nationality; there are multiple reliable sources of similar reputability regardless of languages with the same information."

I would like to see the multiple reliable sources used to verify this information.

Hanni was born in Melbourne, Australia. By default, she would have Australian citizenship. Despite her parents and grandparents coming from Vietnam, that does not make her a Vietnamese citizen. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 10:52, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 Here are some of the reliable sources with similar information in both Korean or English from Donga Ilbo, Herald Corporation, Elle Korea, Korea JoongAng Daily, Business Insider, and Nylon. Please note that these are non-exhaustive and are provided in good faith, and there are additional reliable sources available. If you require more sources, please conduct the research yourself as per WP:BURDEN. It is not my responsibility to provide all sources and/or teach you how to find them. If you need help on "how to research", please consult the WP:TEAHOUSE. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:22, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Paper9oll Business Insider says "Hanni was born in Vietnam, but raised in Australia, per Nylon."

That reference to Nylon says: "Vietnamese-Australian member Hanni is a vocalist and a primary dancer of NewJeans. The 18-year-old was born in Vietnam but was raised in Australia."

It contradicts The Korea Times citation in the article: "Hanni, whose real name is Pham Ngoc Han, was born in Melbourne, Australia, in 2004."

~~Are you going to edit the Hanni page now to state that she was born in Vietnam instead of Melbourne, Australia?~~

~~If you continue to suggest that Hanni holds Vietnamese citizenship without providing reliable sources you are actively partaking in the spread of misinformation.~~ Vien.Vu1 (talk) 11:38, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 I'm pretty sure that we're discussing nationality, so please don't go out of scope as this causes unproductive discussion. While there may or may not be reporting errors in Business Insider, which in turn quoted from Nylon's reporting, this isn't under my capacity to comment on as I'm not the editor for these two companies. Regardless, it's important to note that the six sources provided indicate that Hanni is "Vietnamese" and/or "Australian" and/or "Vietnamese–Australian" or similar variations. Even if there are reporting errors regarding her birthplace in two out of the six sources, the discussion's scope, i.e., nationality, is still correctly addressed.

In addition, I would suggest that you retract your statement, "Are you going to edit the Hanni page now to state that she was born in Vietnam instead of Melbourne, Australia? If you continue to suggest that Hanni holds Vietnamese citizenship without providing reliable sources you are actively partaking in the spread of misinformation". Otherwise, I will consider this a form of personal attacks, which goes against the guideline to "comment on content, not on the contributor". Failure to retract will mark the end of this discussion between us. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:59, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Paper9oll I'll retract that statement to continue this discussion. Apologies if you perceived that as a personal attack.

Vietnamese-Australian does not indicate that she is both Vietnamese and Australian nationality. It is simply used as an ethnicity marker which is common in Western countries, such as Australia. By birth, she is Australian which makes her an Australian citizen. Her ethnicity is Vietnamese due to her parental heritage. Ethnicity and Nationality are entirely separate conversations.

My suggestion would be to edit the article to state that Hanni is "an Australian singer of Vietnamese descent" and her Citizenship to be just "Australia". Vien.Vu1 (talk) 12:30, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 To retract, please follow WP:REDACT guidelines. Your proposed suggestion would still require reliable sources to fulfill the verify policy. However, I couldn't find any sources to support it (meaning it must be explicitly written as such). From my observations, the reliable sources commonly report her as (in order of common usage):

"Vietnamese–Australian" without explicitly mentioning "nationality" and/or "citizenship" and/or "citizen"
"Vietnamese" with the word "nationality"
"Vietnamese" with the word "descent" or "citizen of Vietnam and Australia" (Point 3 has two usages of equal frequency)

In order to reach a WP:CONSENSUS, the first option is currently the most viable option as it also fulfills the MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES guidelines. However, for option 2 and 3, given the direction of this discussion and the comments made, it's unlikely to gain any consensus and would likely result in a stalemate and/or circular discussion. Hence my proposal as is below:

My proposal also includes hidden note to make it clear that this is based on consensus here and also aligned with MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES guidelines. This hidden note should deter any further changes to this area moving forward once implemented as it would be considered as going against the consensus, which may be seen as a signs of disruptive editing. However, as per WP:CCC, should there be a need to update this area in the future, a new consensus shall be required to overwrite the previous consensus. No changes to the citations are required, including [1] (The Korea Times, disputed above), as this citation already explicitly supports the "Vietnamese–Australian" writing. However, "Australian–Vietnamese" does not have any reliable sources that explicitly state it as such, hence this isn't a viable option. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 13:41, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Happy to go ahead with your proposal. Thank you. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 14:01, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 Thanks you. Are you comfortable to wait 3 days (till 17 July 2024) as a precaution to see if there are any further objections (if applicable) before this changes is implemented? As I don't want a situation where immediately, this was implemented then the disruptive editing starts again by those whom objected but didn't participated. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Paper9oll Yes, happy to wait until 17th July 2024 for the changes to be implemented. Vien.Vu1 (talk) 14:25, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 Ok thanks! — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:36, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I am finally not banned anymore. Being a newbie to wikipedia.

The korea times was translated from a korean source. Where in Korean. Describing Hanni as a Vietnamese member rather than the unatural korean way of saying someone is ethnically Vietnamese. We can say 혈통 rather than 국적 but its unnatural. The problem with using translated sources is the mistranslation.

Since most news articles in Vietnam refer to Hanni as a person with Vietnamese roots.

So without self research. And hunting resources based on wikipedia guidelines there's no definitive proof of a dual nationality source as most articles point to the Korea MOFA article where Hanni with newjeans did some government promotion for the relationship between Vietnam and Korea. Where the article in Korea states newjeans consists of a Vietnamese member. Which can be determined as ethnicity rather than nationality. The problem is we cant provide korean sources to the English wikipedia side. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 12:06, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox I'm not going to address your comment as it's unclear what you are trying to imply. Please note that, as stated above and by other editors on your talk page during your block, Wikipedia does not operate on original research, and you are prohibited from doing so here. This was also communicated to you during your block. Additionally, you have been directed to the policy WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS twice, so I assume you have read it. Otherwise, please note that there is already an existing consensus (with planned implementation on 17 July 2024) above. If you have concerns with the proposal, kindly address them here. Your concerns should focus solely on the proposal to ensure that the discussion remains productive, please provide reliable sources to support your concerns explicitly (i.e., word-for-word) as the existing proposal is based on reliable sources. Failure to comply with this advice and acceptable reply format will result in no further responses. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 14:40, 15 July 2024 (UTC)

I would not cite the Korean times as they did not actually have a one on one interview with Hanni as such with Vogue Australia. As that article describes an opinion piece and not an interview. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 11:07, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Im happy with the proposal as it aligns with Vietnamese Australians and Hanni being a 1st generation Vietnamese Australians. https://www.vogue.com.au/culture/newjeanss-danielle-marsh-and-hanni-pham-are-a-new-sensation/news-story/f24e0c565d49c8cf98e35d3b69b18010

Is an article by Vogue Australia describing them as Australian teens. Australian singers etc. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 10:48, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

[1]https://www.theaustralian.com.au/arts/music/danielle-marsh-and-hanni-pham-on-kpop-sensation-newjeans-star-on-the-january-cover-of-vogue/news-story/d9d9cec8b0fc3f38edd1b66f7d4399b9

The Australian is a reputable media outlet in Australia. also refers to this Vogue Australia article referring them to as Australian teens. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 10:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

This Vogue Australia article was accompanied with a youtube video of the interview https://youtube.com/ebIc3zjFfg0 Lightningwhitefox (talk) 11:11, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Or search youtube for “hanni vogue australia” the first result.

This source verifies that Hanni is Australian. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 11:15, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox Noted that you have no objections to the proposal above. We will proceed with the implementation on 17 July 2024 as planned. Regarding the use of The Korea Times (citation [1]), as mentioned above, we will retain this citation to fulfil WP:VERIFY policy as it explicitly supports the "Vietnamese–Australian" description. Additionally, as per the proposal, we will use the same description as it is the most commonly used term to describe Hanni in reliable sources. Thank you for your agreement and participation in this discussion. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 11:44, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The only objection is the use of that korean times article. The Vogue article and published magazine states that Hanni is Australian. The original Korean article contradicts this claim saying that shes also of a Vietnamese nationality. Which is incorrect as initially stated. Only a caption for an image states that she’s Vietnamese-Australian and not the article anywhere mentions that she is Vietnamese-Australian.

The fact that Vogue Australia who actually interviewed Hanni and Daniele and has the most accurate information from the girls as well Im sure their publicist as well Lightningwhitefox (talk) 15:29, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Anyway. Hanni Nationality should be be similar to Luke Nguyen profile with nationality. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 15:31, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox Yes, the proposal aligns with the article you linked. The use of The Korea Times has already been discussed twice above. To summarize, we absolutely need this source to adhere to Wikipedia's verification policy—please read this policy if you haven't already. Vogue Australia only describes her as "Australian", which fails verification for the "Vietnamese–Australian" description. If desired, this source could be included in the Early life section. However, as mentioned earlier (this being the third time), it cannot be use to support the "Vietnamese–Australian" description as proposed. Please refrain from raising concerns about this source further, as it leads to unproductive and potentially circular discussion. The proposal will proceed as planned, as agreed earlier. If you wish to include Vogue Australia in the Early Life section, please limit your response to addressing this point, failure to comply with this advice and acceptable reply format will result in no further responses. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 16:01, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

https://theconversation.com/backlash-against-k-pop-star-hanni-shows-vietnam-still-struggles-with-the-legacy-of-the-war-200493

Should replace the Korea times citation. As this gives the background of the conflict and through explanation of the reason why there was a controversy with her heritage being of a Vietnamese dispora. This passes the verification test as well explains much more of the conflict from a Melbourne professor citing Vietnamese articles as well inside. While the vogue one validates her being just Australian. Which contradicts the terminology dual nationality as the korean times articles. This conversation article states she’s Vietnamese Australian. Which aligns with Vietnamese Australian prior.

This is a discussion on contents cited reference. But if the contents doesn’t really affect the cited point for her being Vietnamese-Australian. Then I will refrain from making any more comments. However the language used my korea times is not the same quality as this article that I believe should replace the cited one of similar content but gives a more indepth of the reasoning of the struggles of Vietnamese Australians dispora with Vietnam. Unless this link can be cited as a controversy section. Lightningwhitefox (talk) 23:38, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

@Lightningwhitefox Below is the updated proposal.

The proposed source (The Conversation) will be added as citation [2]. To clarify any confusion, our primary use of this source is to ensure the "Vietnamese–Australian" description fulfil WP:VERIFY policy. We are not concerned with the article's additional content, such as "giving a more in-depth reasoning of the struggles of Vietnamese Australians diaspora with Vietnam". Therefore, there is no need to replace The Korea Times; however, as you insisted, The Conversation will be added to verify the description.

As mentioned earlier, we will proceed with the implementation today, 17 July 2024. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 03:02, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

@Vien.Vu1 @Lightningwhitefox The proposal has been implemented via this revision. Thank you for your agreement and participation in this discussion. As there are no further discussions required, I will proceed to close this discussion. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 05:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hanni is Australian and not Vietnamese national

Latest comment: 3 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hanni Pham is second- or third-gen Vietnamese Australian, that automatically makes her an Australian national, not Vietnamese. She was born and raised in Melbourne in 2004, she speaks English all the time, her family had migrated from Vietnam to Australia after 1975. Asian Australians are Australian citizens of Asian descent.

For example, JD Vance's wife Usha Vance is unanimously American.

The person who presumes that Hanni is dual Vietnamese-Australian national is implying that people of Asian descent born in Australia are not considered Australian, only whites can be Australian. This is outrageously racist and unacceptable behavior. Please show solid evidence of your claim on Hanni's Vietnamese citizenship, including IDs and documents, or Wikipedia:Disinformation.

Please show me who are the original Australians before white European invasion. Čtvrtsmrš (talk) 03:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

Nationality infobox incorrect

Latest comment: 1 month ago21 comments4 people in discussion

Hanni and her siblings are Vietnamese Australians, that is Australians with Vietnamese ancestry. Nationality refers to citizenship. Vietnam only offers dual-citizenship in rare circumstances. There are articles saying Hanni uses her Australian passport at airports. Hanni has only said "Vietnamese Australian" as per the context of the Wikipedia article, as she would as an Australian citizen.

Now some music news articles have picked up this Wikipedia biography to say Hanni has dual-citizenship. This has causing absurd controversy in Vietnam, which requires some national fidelity to the state. This is all circular reasoning. Hanni has nothing to do with the politics or laws of Vietnam.

For another analysis see: https://m.blog.naver.com/jhnsn/223138660452.

See https://lawyers-vietnam.com/citizenship-in-vietnam for an explanation how unusual it would be for second-generation Australians to obtain Vietnamese-Australian dual citizenship.

There is evidence of Australian citizenship due to her birthplace in Melbourne and passport use. There is no evidence of any Vietnamese citizenship or of a Vietnamese law granting it automatically. Until otherwise proven, the nationality of Hanni MUST be described as Australian. Travelmite (talk) 03:54, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Following up, there is an archive page full of incorrect assertions. Well, that can be all fixed. Travelmite (talk) 04:03, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you - she should be listed as Australian. Especially seeing as we have her info box saying “Nationality: Vietnamese-Australian” which is something that doesn’t exist. In that, she is either a dual national (Meaning nationalities would be Vietnamese comma Australian) OR we are describing her ethnicity, something that is not done on WP. The reference also doesn’t describe her citizenship, only her ethnicity as an Australian with Vietnamese lineage. I feel we remove it from the info box but leave the information in her early life section about her parents. I’m glad you brought this up. orangesclub 🍊 04:07, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There are sound reasons to dispute that there is a consensus on the archive page. Wikipedia editors with expertise in nationality law should be included in this update. Travelmite (talk) 06:15, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

There is also an incorrect application of MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES which merely states what punctuation is required. It does not say to presume dual nationality, and it does not override Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons. Travelmite (talk)

Phrases like "Vietnamese Australian" (or "Australian Vietnamese") do not automatically imply dual citizenship. If such an implication runs a bit stronger in Australian English than otherwise, then it would probably make sense to use alternative phrasing. Regardless, the goal of the wording should be to indicate a native/citizen of Australia, and (if it's relevant to her notability, which seems to be the case) a Vietnamese ethno-familial background. These facts do not really even need to be in the same sentence; there is no requirement to use the string "Vietnamese Australian" if that is seen as problematic. In the US, "Vietnamese American" would not be problematic, and would not at all imply dual citizenship. My experience (limited) of this sort of thing abroad is that word order is often reversed in the UK (e.g. "British[-]Vietnamese", often hyphenated), but not universally, and also does not imply anything about citizenship. These sorts of ethno-national compounds appears to be more common in North American (including Canadian) usage than in English elsewhere, but it's not something I've seen reliable data about. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 08:04, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. The issue is the infobox which says "Nationality: Vietnamese Australian", which does imply dual citizenship. Travelmite (talk) 08:47, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I have been asked to comment here -- I think because I have edited articles related to nationality law. I hasten to disclaim that I am not a lawyer and have not been educated in law in any jurisdiction. That said, it is my understanding that a sovereign state decides whether or not an individual is or is not a citizen according to its own precepts, regardless of the opinions of other countries, of the individual involved, or of others such as Wikipedia editors.

In a web search, I found an item titled Law No. 07/1998/QH10 on Vietnamese Nationality of 20 May 1998 and linked here, Article 3 says, "The State of the Socialist Republic of Vietnam recognizes that the Vietnamese citizens have only one nationality; the Vietnamese nationality." I take that to indicate that if some other state recognizes an individual recognized as a citizen of Vietnam, the Vietnam state does not recognize the validity of that recognition by another state and regardless of the opinion of Wikipedia editors.
Article 11, "Papers proving Vietnamese nationality", lists "certificate of Vietnamese nationality" and "His/her birth certificate enclosed with papers proving the Vietnamese nationality of his/her parents". I take that to indicate such papers, if they exist, prove Vietnamese nationality. That article indicates that other papers might also provide such proof, but does not list them.

I suggest reference to the Multiple citizenship article -- at least the first paragraph of the lead section. "Dual citizenship| is a slippery term. It is entirely possible for two countries to consider an individual as their citizen and, as I understand things, neither of those countries would have a valid opinion regarding the validity regarding validity of the recognition of the other country's citizenship recognition; the opinion of Wikipedia editors such as myself would not rise to even that level of validity.

I see that the article cites this source, which mentions "Directive 222" as, apparently, a big deal about this. The mention is linked to this, which seems to contain the Vietnamese text of Directive 222 on page 237. I have not translated or tried to understand the text but I not that it seems to be dated 1975. Perhaps I am jumping to a conclusion, but it seems to me that the law dated 1998 would supersede this iof there is a conflict.

That's about as far as I can go quickly. I have not read either the article or that supporting source carefully, but the source says, 'pro-government social media page Tifosi said “there are many idols but only one fatherland,” implying that supporting Hanni would be unpatriotic.' and does not seem to mention anything about her nationality and, if it did, that would be the opinion of whomever wrote that on that social media page. If nationality is to be an issue, sources more directly to that point would need to be cited and, if those sources differ inn their viewpoints, WP:DUE would come into play.

I've used the terms nationality and citizenship above as if they are equivalent. They are not equivalent in the case of the United States but, AFAIK, they are equivalent in most or all other cases.

I hope that some of the above is helpful ratrher that just copnfusing the issue. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 11:05, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. In summary, Wikipedia editors cannot decide on legal matters; the directive of 1998 means that second-generation Australians (like Hanni born 2004) would not have Vietnamese citizenship or nationality; and there is no specific mention of Vietnamese nationality any reliable sources with direct knowledge. Travelmite (talk) 12:50, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

A further update. I have checked the so-called reliable articles. Some of these state that Hanni was born in Vietnam, which is false. Others are vague about nationality vs ethnicity. This is a good demonstration that the articles are unreliable. Travelmite (talk) 13:21, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I interpret that 1998 law differently.

As I read Article 11, Vietnam bases nationality on Jus sanguinis, not on Jus soli. Hani would be a VN national if her parents were—lplace of birth does not seem to come into it. The government of Australia may or may not hold an opinion re whether or not she is a VN national. Separately, they may or may not recognize her as an Australian national (I have not looked at that). As I read Article 3, the government of VN would not recognize that she holds Australian nationality. What Wikipedia editors think about any of that does not matter at all -- per WP:V, anything asserted in a WP article must be attributable to one or more published reliable sources; such supporting sources should be cited. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I see your point. We certainly do not know the status of the parents, if they were stateless refugees, if they renounced, or lost citizenship under the earlier directives. I also found a 2008 law [2] where article 13(2) seems to require overseas Vietnamese to register within 5 years to retain their nationality. A lawyer would need to figure all this out with the family details at hand. It seems unlikely music journalists sources know this and just jump to conclusions. Regardless, we can all agree that Wikipedia editors must avoid such legal presumptions. Thank you for all your explanations. 11:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC) Travelmite (talk) 11:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

(added) I took a quick look at this source, which the article cites to support an infobox assertion that Hani's nationnality is " Vietnamese Australian". I do not see any support in that article for an assertion that she holds either nationality. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 21:29, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Issues are: 1. it does not mention nationality or citizenship 2. Writer is a PhD student in Canada who has no knowledge of singer's nationality or citizenship. They may have picked it up the descriptor from this very page. Travelmite (talk) 11:18, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

(added) I did a little more digging and found support in "[FACTCHECK] As K-pop diversifies, take a look back at the changing lineups of acts". Korea JHongAng Daily. May 9, 2023. I note that the home page for the publisher, here, says, "In association with New York Times", for whatever that might be wirth reliability-wise. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 22:08, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

The specific words are "Hanni was born and raised in Melbourne, Australia to Vietnamese parents. Vietnamese nationality OR descent is rarely seen in K-pop" -- a broad comment. [3] Travelmite (talk) 11:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Previous consensus non-conforming to WP:BLP

A previous consensus is identified in Talk:Hanni_(singer)/Archive_1 however it did consider or apply the policies Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons. The cited "reliable sources" during the discussion state that Hanni was born in both Vietnam and Australia. They variously state she is a Vietnamese national, an Australian national and a dual citizen. The inaccuracies between the sources appear not addressed. The cited source does not mention Hanni's nationality. Wikipedia:Verifiability directs editors to not use material from sources that are demonstrably inaccurate. Perennial sources WP:RSP do not mention Hanni's nationality suggesting it has not been publicly disclosed. WP:BLP strictly requires edits to be "written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy" and "Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion". Such deletions are except from the three revert-rule as per [WP:3RRBLP]]. It follows that the previously formed consensus was not compliant with Wikipedia policies and may not be followed. Travelmite (talk) 14:16, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

History of inaccurate sourcing

I provide the following summary in timeline format of inaccurate and/or inconsistent sourcing:

1) 2022.08.14 Startpage[4] "hani, is a Vietnamese rapper" "Born ... Vietnam". There is no source. The only other link cites a unrelated group called GOT7.

2) 2022.09.29[5] "a Vietnamese-Australian rapper" "Born ... Melbourne" (no source, the dash indicates dual nationality as per MOS:DUALNATIONALITY in contrast to Vietnamese Australian)

3) 2024.06.16[6] Infobox "Citizenship: Vietnam.Australia", source is the harassment by Vietnamese nationalists in mid-2023 Dong Sun-hwa. "NewJeans member Hanni's dual nationality causes stir". The Korea Times. Archived from the original on September 7, 2023. Retrieved June 16, 2024. "some extremists even demanding she gives up her Vietnamese nationality" which was presumed.

4) 2024.07.01[7] Novice user deletes citizenship line calling it "False information", followed by 17 days of edit tussles with many users and debate on talk page. Editor banned and CTOPS notice added [8]

5) 2024.07.01-17 Talk:Hanni_(singer)/Archive_1 defenders of the page prioritise 3RR rule over BLP policy (contrary to WP:3RRBLP) and claim "reliable sources"[9] that directly contradict each other as follows:

(a) 2022.07.22[10] "Hani is a Vietnamese national"

(b) 2022.07.26[11] "The 18-year-old was born in Vietnam but was raised in Australia".

(d) 2022.08.11[13] "Hani has dual citizenship in Vietnam and Australia".

(e) 2023.05.09[14] "Hanni was born and raised in Melbourne, Australia to Vietnamese parents".

(f) 2023.05.12[15] "Hanni was born in Vietnam, but raised in Australia".

Overlooked are sources elsewhere referring to Hanni as just Australian, such as BBC 2023.02.01 [16] "she is an Australian citizen and of Vietnamese descent"; and 2023.01.07 Daily Mail UK "Australian member, Hanni Pham"[17]. In fact, her actual citizenship or nationality has not been specifically disclosed. It was suggested "errors regarding her birthplace" did not affect source reliably [18].

6) 2024.06.17[19] Infobox "Nationality: Vietnamese-Australian" source Quoc Tan Trung Nguyen (March 9, 2023). "Backlash against K-pop star Hanni shows Vietnam still struggles with the legacy of the war". The Conversation. Retrieved July 17, 2024. < !-- As per consensus at talk page, maintain Vietnamese–Australian nationality as per MOS:DUALNATIONALITIES guidelines -- >. The PhD student's article does not state the singer's nationality or citizenship.

7) 2024.08.17[20]; 2024.08.19[21]; 2024.10.10[22]; 2024.10.25[23] there were further edit tussles over nationality line and 'real' name.

8) 2024.09.26 Vietnamese Wiki version infobox states "Citizen: Australian" after their own debate.

The above history shows no confirmation or disclosure of Hanni's nationality - its all guesswork/WP:NOR. The inconsistency makes it self-evident that proper citation and reliable sourcing has not been applied. WP:BLP is not being followed. Travelmite (talk) 08:12, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Inline comment must be removed

As demonstrated above, the so-called consensus is inconsistent with WP:BLP and must be altered. Travelmite (talk) 08:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Email from Author of Ref 1

I have received an email on 28/1/2024 from the author of reference 1: Quoc Tan Trung Nguyen (9 March 2023). "Backlash against K-pop star Hanni shows Vietnam still struggles with the legacy of the war". The Conversation. Archived from the original on 22 February 2024. Retrieved 17 July 2024.

He writes:

The term "Vietnamese Australian," which I used at the article's outset, is a standard descriptor for Australians of Vietnamese descent. This usage is well-established in academic literature, as evidenced in works like "The Vietnamese Australians: Traditions, Education, Tenacity" by Hien Minh Thi Tran. Additionally, I linked to an article from the National News that specifically identifies Hanni as a Vietnamese Australian.

This confirms that the author was not specifying dual citizenship. Travelmite (talk) 08:25, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

As the article by Quoc Tan Trung Nguyen is not biographical, but primarily about Vietnamese nationalism and their unreasonable boycott, I have created an External Link to the article, instead it being a content reference. Travelmite (talk) 11:52, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy on use of Infoxbox

Wikipedia:INFONAT gives direction on the use of Infoxboxes, as follows:

In biographies, a |nationality= field should not be used. This was previously available for legal nationality, but was often confused with national identity or ethnicity.

This confirms that the nationality field in the article infobox must be removed. Travelmite (talk) 08:32, 29 October 2024 (UTC)