Talk:Haplogroup C-M130

Untitled

The article would need a much better structure, i.e. dividing it into separate paragraphs, each dealing with each subclade in detail. Centrum99 (talk) 06:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

"Unlike some other human Y-DNA clades of a similar age depth, all clades of Haplogroup CF are non-African; that is, they do not occur exclusively in Africa, unlike A and B." How does 'not occurring exclusively in Africa' make CF 'non-African'? I think that sentence needs clearing up. MrSativa (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

@MrSativa Fixed. --YOMAL SIDOROFF-BIARMSKII (talk) 05:18, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Haplogroup C2 and its subclades

According to ISOGG's Y-DNA haplogroup tree (2007), haplogroup C2 is defined by M38 and it has two parallel subclades, C2a-P33 and C2b-M208. However, according to Cox et al., "A Polynesian Motif on the Y Chromosome: Population Structure in Remote Oceania" (Human Biology, vol. 79, 2007), haplogroup C2-M38 has only one identified immediate subclade, haplogroup C2a-M208, and C2a-M208 in turn has two immediate subclades, haplogroup C2a1-P33 and haplogroup C2a2-P54. The data of Cox et al. show haplogroup C2-M38*(xC2a-M208) as being the only form of haplogroup C2 found in central and eastern Indonesia, from Sulawesi, Flores, and Sumba eastwards through the Maluku Islands. Haplogroup C2-M38*(xC2a-M208) is present in approx. 30% of the total of all samples from central and eastern Indonesia in Cox et al. (2007), with the highest frequency of haplogroup C2-M38* being found among the population of the central Indonesian island of Sumba.

In New Guinea, in addition to very small amounts of haplogroup C2-M38*(xC2a-M208), Cox et al. have also found small amounts of haplogroup C2a-M208*(xC2a1-P33). Haplogroup C2a-M208* is limited to low frequency (2/21 or approx. 10%) among their sample of people from Coastal New Guinea.

C2a1-P33, on the other hand, is extremely common among (and completely limited to) Polynesian populations. Cox et al. found haplogroup C2a1-P33 Y-chromosomes among their samples of Polynesians from Rapanui (Easter Island), Tahiti, Samoa, and Tonga, but this haplogroup was completely absent from their samples of populations from Melanesia (including Vanuatu and the Solomon Islands), Micronesia, and Indonesia. Basically, this means that the majority of Polynesian males are descended directly from some man who was related to the direct patrilineal ancestor of the majority of Sumbanese as well as a significant proportion of men in Flores, Sulawesi, and the Malukus. This man later moved eastward to somewhere around the north coast of New Guinea, where he left a few branches of his descendants at low frequency among some coastal New Guinean populations. Most of his descendants, however, moved further eastward, past New Guinea and Melanesia, and out into the Polynesian islands of Remote Oceania.

Should we change the "Subclades" section on the haplogroup C (Y-DNA) wiki page to reflect the data of Cox et al., or should we continue to follow ISOGG's Y-DNA haplogroup tree? Ebizur (talk) 21:27, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Haplogroup C (Y-DNA)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Haplogroup C (Y-DNA)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Cadenas2008":

• From Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups: Alicia M Cadenas, Lev A Zhivotovsky, Luca L Cavalli-Sforza et al., "Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman," European Journal of Human Genetics (2008) 16, 374–386.
• From Haplogroup Q (Y-DNA): Cadenas AM, Zhivotovsky LA, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA, Herrera RJ (2008). "Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman". Eur. J. Hum. Genet. 16 (3): 374–86. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201934. PMID 17928816. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
• From Haplogroup G (Y-DNA): Cadenas, A.; et al. (2008). "Chromosome Diversity Characterizes the Gulf of Oman". Eur Journal of Genetics. 16 (3): 374–86. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201934. PMID 17928816. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)
• From Haplogroup B (Y-DNA): Alicia M Cadenas, Lev A Zhivotovsky, Luca L Cavalli-Sforza et al., "Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman," European Journal of Human Genetics (2008) 16, 374–386
• From Haplogroup P (Y-DNA): Alicia M Cadenas et al., "Y-chromosome diversity characterizes the Gulf of Oman," European Journal of Human Genetics (2008) 16, 374–386.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:04, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Article on ancient migrations relating to haplogroup C

Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia

Hua Zhong1,2,5, Hong Shi1, Xue-Bin Qi1, Chun-Jie Xiao3, Li Jin4, Runlin Z Ma2 and Bing Su1

http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v55/n7/abs/jhg201040a.html

Rajmaan (talk) 21:42, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

NPOV

"Asia is also the area in which Haplogroup D-M174 is concentrated. However, D-M174 is more closely related to haplogroup E than to C-M130 and the geographical distributions of Haplogroups C-M130 and D-M174 are entirely and utterly different"

Gee, could it be possible that people with Haplogroup C displaced people with haplogroup D in Asia, and drove them to flee to the remotest corners they could find - the Andamanese Islands, the Himalayan mountains, the northern island of Japan called Hokkaido (where the Ainu live)? I don't see how a present day distribution is proof of ancient distribution, other than indirectly. MrSativa (talk) 03:57, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

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Orphaned references in Haplogroup C-M130

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Haplogroup C-M130's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Zhong2010":

• From Haplogroup C-M48: Hua Zhong, Hong Shi, Xue-Bin Qi, Chun-Jie Xiao, Li Jin, Runlin Z Ma, and Bing Su, "Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia." Journal of Human Genetics (2010) 55, 428–435; doi:10.1038/jhg.2010.40; published online 7 May 2010.
• From Haplogroup Q-M25: Zhong, H.; Shi, H.; Qi, X.-B.; Duan, Z.-Y.; Tan, P.-P.; Jin, L.; Su, B.; Ma, R. Z. (2010). "Extended Y Chromosome Investigation Suggests Postglacial Migrations of Modern Humans into 42.6East Asia via the Northern Route". Molecular Biology and Evolution. 28 (1): 717–27. doi:10.1093/molbev/msq247. PMID 20837606.
• From Haplogroup Q-M120: Zhong, H.; Shi, H.; Qi, X.-B.; Duan, Z.-Y.; Tan, P.-P.; Jin, L.; Su, B.; Ma, R. Z. (2010). "Extended Y Chromosome Investigation Suggests Postglacial Migrations of Modern Humans into East Asia via the Northern Route". Molecular Biology and Evolution. 28 (1): 717–27. doi:10.1093/molbev/msq247. PMID 20837606.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 22:35, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Haplogroup C-M130

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Haplogroup C-M130's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "DiCristofaro2013":

• From Haplogroup R1b: Di Cristofaro J, Pennarun E, Mazières S, Myres NM, Lin AA, et al. (2013) "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge." PLoS ONE 8(10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748
• From Haplogroup D-M174: Di Cristofaro, J; Pennarun, E; Mazières, S; Myres, NM; Lin, AA; et al. (2013). "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge". PLoS ONE. 8 (10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748. PMC 3799995. PMID 24204668.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)
• From Haplogroup C-M48: Di Cristofaro J, Pennarun E, Mazières S, Myres NM, Lin AA, et al. (2013) "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge." PLoS ONE 8(10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748
• From Haplogroup O-M175: Di Cristofaro J, Pennarun E, Mazieres S, Myres NM, Lin AA, et al. (2013) "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge." PLoS ONE 8(10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748
• From Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup: Di Cristofaro J, Pennarun E, Mazières S, Myres NM, Lin AA, et al. (2013), "Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge." PLoS ONE 8(10): e76748. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0076748

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 06:39, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

Possible geographic origin of C

@73.22.96.109:You seem to have changed "possible origin to "Southeast Asia" in the inbox. Your edit note says that this is because C the highest diversity of C has been found in Southeast Asia according to the source. I have not been able to find this there, but if true, it is not our function as Wikipedia editors to make inferences or conclusions that are not posited in the sources. This is considered POV (Point of View) or Original Reasearch/Synthesis and violates Wikipedia's rules. Please See WP:NOR and WP:POV. The article cited in the infobox does not mention a southeast Asian origin. It rather states (on page 431) that basal C (C*) is present in Monglolian-descended individuals, and in figure 3 (also page 431) shows a migration rout image for C (mutation M130) beginning in West Asia. The paper states that C migrated from a Western direction and reached East Asia later (page 434) around 30-40kya, significantly after its divergence, and seems to suggest an origin for C somewhere in the region of the Indian subcontinent (South Asia)

The authors say:

"On the basis of STR data, we estimated the ages of STR variation and the divergence times of Hg C subhaplogroups (Table 1). In general, the times estimated are highly consistent with the inferred migration events. The divergence times of C3*-M217 and C1-M8 were estimated as 32.6±14.1KYA and 41.9±16.6KYA, respectively, indi- cating that the proposed eastward migration of Hg C into East Asia started about 32–42KYA. This is consistent with the mitochondrial DNA findings, in which the Japanese- and Korean-specific Hap- logroup M7a was estimated as 37.0±20.0KYA.57 In addition, the archaeological findings also provided strong evidence that an Upper Paleolithic wave of migration brought people into Japan more than 30.0 KYA.58,59 At that time, Pleistocene land bridges likely connected Japan to the mainland and there was a much shorter coastline between East Asia and Southeast Asia.38 However, the STR-variation ages for Hg C3* and C1 were estimated as 18.9±4.0 KYA and 10.0±3.5 KYA, respectively, reflecting relatively recent population expansions, which is reasonable because this is the time that the Last Ice Age started to retreat and the climate became warmer.60 Another ancient lineage is Hg C5 (33.3±19.1 KYA), and its divergence time agrees well with the suggested midway station of the Indian subcontinent during the eastward migration of Hg C from Africa to East Asia."

See the article in full here: "Global distribution of Y-chromosome haplogroup C reveals the prehistoric migration routes of African exodus and early settlement in East Asia" by Zhong et al. https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040.pdf?origin=ppub

Also, regarding your changes to the CF article, though you state that the source finds basal CF* in Southeast Asia (which I could not seem to find), even if true, this does not allow conclusions to be made by editors regarding its origin. It seems that its likely origin should rather at least be given as "Asia, region unknown" (or something along those lines.—Skllagyook (talk) 22:04, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@MorningSunBright: You mention (in the edit notes) that a Southeast Asian origin is suggested in Supplementary table 2 of the source. I cannot seem to find it in the document below (which seems to be the full study). Do you know what page it is on? The study seems to state the C likely originated in South Asia, and later migrated Eastward (see quote above). The map seems to show the same thing.

You write: "As the paper states that the highest diversity is found in Southeast Asia: "Hence, in combination with the above analysis of the MDS plot (Figure 3a), the STR diversity pattern (Supplementary Table 2) suggests that Southeast Asia might be the cradle land of the M130 lineage"

But this seems like an inference/interpretation not made in the text (which seems to explicitly suggest otherwise), which would (as I understand) not be in accordance with Wikipedia's rules regarding POV and Original Research.

https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040.pdf?origin=ppub

Regarding haplotype CF, it seems unjustified to infer an origin form present distributions (I believe this violates Wikipedia's rules regarding POV and Original research. An origin in southeast Asia seem counterintuitive because, CF is the root of almost all Eurasian y lineages and diverged soon after the Out-of-Afica migration (around 60-70,000 years ago according to some calculations). It is not mainstream scholarly opinion that all Eurasians including Western Eurasians/Europeans/Middle Easterners (or their y chromosomes) originated in Southeast Asia. Given the lack ion certainty regarding the origin of CF may be more justified to list the likely origin (as I suggest above) as either "Asia, region unknown", or "South Asia or Southeast Asia" (or something along those lines).

"Indomalaya" may be acceptable for haplogroup C (since it also includes India), but for CF, the likely origin region in Asia seems less certain.

Thanks—Skllagyook (talk) 22:28, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@Skllagyook: Hello! The article by Hua Zhong itself states "Furthermore, a general south-to-north and east-to-west cline of Y-STR diversity is observed with the highest diversity in Southeast Asia." in the abstract itself, as well as on page 5 of the pdf that you linked, the author suggests "Southeast Asia might be the cradle land of the M130 lineage".

As for it being "counterintuitive", I have read many papers such as Vincente Cabrera (2017) stating that the tropical regions of Southeast Asia might represent a "secondary center of diversity" for homo sapiens, Southeast asia seems to be the region with the highest center of genetic diversity outside of Africa. Indeed basal haplogroups (Y-dna) seems to show up with the greatest diversity in Southheast asia, including hg c, hg f, and hg d, etc. As for mtdna, according to Cabrera (2017), the oldest and most basal subclades of mtdna haplogroups M and N appear in Southeast asia.

It is quite interesting, because it seems that southeast asia, is a seemingly overlooked region in archaeology and anthropology, although genetics show that the region might need to more thoroughly investigated to understand human evolution more!

Thanks!

@MorningSunBright: You wrote: "in the abstract itself, as well as on page 5 of the pdf that you linked, the author suggests "Southeast Asia might be the cradle land of the M130 lineage"

I cannot find that

The abstract says:

"The regional distribution of an ancient Y-chromosome haplogroup C-M130 (Hg C) in Asia provides an ideal tool of dissecting prehistoric migration events. We identified 465 Hg C individuals out of 4284 males from 140 East and Southeast Asian populations. We genotyped these Hg C individuals using 12 Y-chromosome biallelic markers and 8 commonly used Y-short tandem repeats (Y-STRs), and performed phylogeographic analysis in combination with the published data. The results show that most of the Hg C subhaplogroups have distinct geographical distribution and have undergone long-time isolation, although Hg C individuals are distributed widely across Eurasia. Furthermore, a general south-to-north and east-to-west cline of Y-STR diversity is observed with the highest diversity in Southeast Asia. The phylogeographic distribution pattern of Hg C supports a single coastal ‘Out-of-Africa’ route by way of the Indian subcontinent, which eventually led to the early settlement of modern humans in mainland Southeast Asia. The northward expansion of Hg C in East Asia started B40 thousand of years ago (KYA) along the coastline of mainland China and reached Siberia B15 KYA and finally made its way to the Americas."

@Skllagyook: The passage itself is linked on page 432 of the paper of the study here: https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg201040.pdf?origin=ppub, it states, "Hence, in combination with the above analysis of the MDS plot (Figure 3a), the STR diversity pattern (Supplementary Table 2) suggests that Southeast Asia might be the cradle land of the M130 lineage, and that the M130 lineage, derived from the M168 ancestral type (the shared marker in non-Africans)". the article suggests that hgC-M130's region of origin is possibly Southeast Asia due to the greater diversity present there.

@MorningSunBright: Ok. Thanks for the clarification.—Skllagyook (talk) 23:02, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

@AsadalEditor: there is no evidence for haplogroup c-m130 evolving in central asia or southwest asia. the source only mentions c-m130 as the possible source of southeast asia