Talk:Harley-Davidson Hummer

Re: Ms. Skelly's comment

Someone with the IP address 74.38.98.171 wrote:

My 1953 125cc Harley-Davidson Ranger looks like a Harley-Davidson Hog and it definitely does not have a 165 cc engine. Kathleen Skelly, P.O. Box 327, Welcome, MN. 56181

I shall delete this forthwith from the main article, but I shall discuss the statement and my reason for deleting it here:

First, the reason for deleting it: Anecdotal statements and original research should not be part of an encyclopedia article. If you can cite a published source that states that there were 125 cc Rangers made in 1953, then by all means include the statement and the citation in the article.

Second, regarding the statement itself. If it's a 1953 bike and has a 125 cc engine, then it's not likely to be a Ranger. As the article and its stated sources say, the Ranger was made in 1962 only. If it looks like a regular Hog, is a 1953 bike, and has a 125 cc engine, it's probably a S-125. If it's all that and says "Ranger" on it too, it's probably a S-125 with a Ranger badge. Maybe it has some Ranger parts on it that included the badge. A lot of parts were interchangeable between these bikes.

I hope that has been of help and has not violated the guidelines of Wikipedia too much. Respectfully, SamBlob 22:54, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Reference has been moved

Reference #6, Tiddlerosis Hummer Chart, has been moved to this location, as originally stated in the article text by User:ScarabJet. Respectfully, SamBlob (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Model 125 and 1948

Harley-Davidson referred to this model in various ways, typically as a Model "125". For example, the 1948 Spare Parts Catalog lists it this way. HD was inconsistent - sometimes they used "125" or "Single Cylinder", but I have never seen any literature with "S-125". I removed the cumbersome quotes around "125" though.

The references to 1947 are confusing. Yes, the 1948 model year starts in Sept/Oct 1947. But referring to 1947-1952 makes it appear that there was a 1947 model year.

The Model "125" was announced at a dealer convention on November 24, 1947, about 2 months into the model year. The "temporary owner's manual" and "temporary parts catalogs" were dated December 1947, pointing to availability in December 1947 or January 1948. HD only says "mid-year".

I deleted "produced during the first seven months of 1947" since that was plainly wrong.

HD part number have suffixes indication the model year of the bike. All of the parts for the 1948 Model 125 have a -47 suffix, indicating that this bike was originally planned for 1947.

David M. Hennessey (talk) 18:22, 9 April 2010 (UTC) -- Dave Hennessey, The Harley Hummer Club, Inc.

Future Changes

1. The Super 10 was produced in 1960 and 1961 (not 1962)

2. HD refers to the "Super 10" without a hyphen. (Example: The Legend Begins)

3. The Topper Motor Scooter is never (to my knowledge) referred to as a Hummer. It needs to be taken out of the body and put in a separate "related" section. The engine of the early HD Golf Carts is similar to the Topper, and hence similar to the Hummer B engine also.

David M. Hennessey (talk) 17:54, 9 April 2010 (UTC) -- Dave Hennessey, The Harley Hummer Club, Inc.

Reply to Mr. Hennessey

1. Please note that new sections in the discussion page are to be put at the bottom of the page and not the top. This is done automatically when the "new section" tab at the top of the page is used to start a new section.

2. If you have a problem with the assertion that ten thousand Harley-Davidson S-125s were sold in the first seven months of 1947, please follow it up with Doug Mitchell and the Auto Editors of Consumer Guide, who claim that company records exist to assert this statement:

With a single-cylinder two-stroke engine designed by DKW of Germany, this was not the kind of motorcycle most people associated with Harley-Davidson. Yet the company claims that 10,000 were sold in the first seven months of 1947. - Mitchel, Doug, and the Auto Editors of Consumer Guide (1995). "1948 Harley-Davidson S-125". Motorcycle Classics. Lincolnwood, IL, USA: Publications International. p. 62. ISBN 078530889X. {{cite book}}: |author= has generic name (help); Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month=, |lastauthoramp=, |laysummary=, and |laydate= (help); Unknown parameter |separator= ignored (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

The company billed it as an excellent beginner's bike, and records show that more than 10,000 were sold in the first seven months of 1947 - Mitchel, Doug (1997). "Chapter Four: The Panhead Age (1948-1965)". Harley-Davidson Chronicle. Lincolnwood, IL, USA: Publications International. p. 142. ISBN 078532514X. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |lastauthoramp= ignored (|name-list-style= suggested) (help); Unknown parameter |separator= ignored (help)CS1 maint: extra punctuation (link)

3. Since the only sources in the first paragraph of the "Model 125" section refer to the motorcycle as "S-125", I have returned the "S-125" designation to the paragraph. I have not deleted the "Model 125" designation even though it was unsourced as it stood. I assume that the source you state later in the section refers to the motorcycle as "Model 125", so I have added it as the source of that designation. If that source, which you appear to be familiar with, does not refer to the motorcycle as being a "Model 125" then you can change it to a source that does.

4. The Harley-Davidson "Model 125", the BSA Bantam, and the MMZ M-1A Moskva are not mere "lookalikes" of the DKW RT125. They are copies based on drawings taken from Germany as war reparations.

5. As you say, the Topper engine is based on the engine used in the "Hummers", and as such could be considered a development of the line, but, as you also say, it is otherwise unrelated. I have removed the "Topper" subsection and replaced it with a "See also" entry and a mention in the "Related" list in the infobox.

6. As no sources were (or are) stated for the "Super 10" section, I will not change it back until I find a source that will support such a change.

Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 23:55, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Reply to Sam

Model 125 v. S-125

Harley-Davidson literature from the period refers to Model "125" or Model 125 or 125 Model. I can find no instances of Harley-Davidson referring to them as S-125.

 Examples can be found here:
 Spare Parts Catalogs (http://www.harleyhummerclub.org/restore/chapter07/index.html)
 Service Manuals (http://www.harleyhummerclub.org/restore/chapter08/index.html)
 Service Shop Dopes (http://www.harleyhummerclub.org/restore/chapter09/index.html)

While Mitchel, et al. have dubbed it the S-125, I would regard Harley-Davidson as a more reliable source.

Super 10 v. Super-10

Harley-Davidson was inconsistent on this name. In subsequent research, I have found examples in Harley-Davidson literature of both versions, as well as Super -dot- 10. I will look further to see which is the most prevalent.

Yamaha YA-1

I had added the Yamaha YA-1 to the list, but it has disappeared (why?).

The Wikipedia article on the YA-1 states "...strongly inspired by the contemporary model DKW RT125..." The article on the RT 125 states "Later Yamaha in Japan copied the RT 125 as the basis of the Yamaha YA-1."

The Harley Hummer Club wrote: "An International Family, Hummer Relatives" http://www.harleyhummerclub.org/restore/chapter90/index.html

Similar article, in German: http://www.dkw-geyer.com/DKW-Geyer/d/mehrdkw/125erPlagiate.htm

I think the YA-1 should be included as it is a significant model.

None of these bikes are 100% copies - all have some amount of changes, so I thought lookalikes was more accurate. While the H-D, BSA and MMZ were based on the pre-war DKW RT 125's (reparations), the YA-1 (1955?) was based on an early 1950's RT125 model. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hennesse (talk • contribs) 08:33, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I will reply further when I am more awake, but I removed the mention of the Yamaha YA-1 because the paragraph was referring to bikes made by countries that got the design as part of war reparations. Japan would not have been part of that because they were not among the countries that defeated Germany; on the contrary, they lost the war alongside Germany and most likely had to give their own reparations. The YA-1 as a RT125 derivative would probably be better mentioned at the RT125 article. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 09:09, 10 April 2010 (UTC)