Talk:Harold Roe Bartle

NPOV?

• I think Scout Chief Bartle is worthy of a wikipedia entry, but the article needs to be rewritten from a neutral point of view - i.e. stating his achievements without going off into emotional hero-worship - this tone is present throught the article (e.g."Using the word "legend" may be an understatement when talking about Harold Roe Bennett Sturdevant Bartle"), but is especially strong and problematic in the conclusion - here is a selected quote:

<start quote> H. Roe Bartle served so many organizations and had so many honors and awards bestowed upon him during his lifetime that it boggles the mind... After everything I found and read about him, I concluded Chief Bartle was a towering example of what an American citizen should be. He deeply cared about his community, his fellow man and lived a life of extraordinary service to others. Maybe above all he genuinely cared about children. He had instilled in his Scouts for years that when your family, church, community or country called upon you that you fulfilled the call.... This giant of a man had a profound influence on many thousands of people that lasts to this day. He counted among his friends the high and mighty including U.S. President Harry Truman yet took the time to help the common man and his beloved Kansas City in so many ways. The legacy of his life and the wide ranging effects of it are almost immeasurable. In the Christmas movie, "It's A Wonderful Life," the angel Clarence said "Each man's life touches so many other lives...". His statement rings true above and beyond in the case of H. Roe Bartle. "Chief" Bartle lived and remains an almost mythical legend of scouting and perhaps of life. <end quote>

Is this text taken from a commemoration speech about the guy? Anyway, I thought it might be best to flag this article as NPOV, and allow a Scout Wikipedian to tone it down. Bwithh 21:32, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

The article reads like the book written by his daughter. Some of the text seems to have been lifted from it. This needs to be worked on. I have a copy of the book so I can cross reference it.

Move Content to Other Articles?

I also see a need to take some content out into seperate articles. Scouting in Kansas City, Bartle, and Mic-O-Say are virtually unseperatable. flyingember

Actually, it came from an article by David Eby. http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Trails/9426/lonebear.html As I understand it, the first version of this article pretty much copied that article, WITH PERMISSION. --Emb021 16:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Bartle had worked with scouts before Wyoming. This came from his biography. I fixed the wording to make this clearer. flyingember

what bio? I don't recall reading that in either Jimmy's or David's. --Emb021 16:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Page 29 in Jimmy's book. There's an obvious typo where because=became. It's also referenced on page 41.

Klan & St. Joseph's

Was the reason that it was taken out that it was not referenced or that it was considered irrelevant?Naraht (talk) 20:57, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to find a better reference if there's one. As you're probably aware, the article as it existed when I arrived was a simple plagiarism of Eby's article. I'm a little surprised that no one caught that when the article was first posted.--John Foxe (talk) 21:06, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I couldn't find another reference for the KKK story, not even in his daughter's glowing reminiscence. I think it's a tale.--John Foxe (talk) 22:54, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

How about Scouting Magazine? http://books.google.com/books?id=y28tFZq4poQC&pg=PA46&dq=bartle+kansas+klan&hl=en&ei=TXX7TZWKJ4iUtweKw4S8Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=bartle%20kansas%20klan&f=false Naraht (talk) 15:41, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

There's certainly some useful information there that I've incorporated into the article. But I'm suspicious about the KKK story. The Scouting article is undoubtedly the source for Eby, but the tale sounds too ben trovato, especially since in the 1970s, the Scouts would want to play up interfaith and interracial harmony. The story would have been a great one for Bartle himself to have told; so why is there apparently no record of it before his death?

Perhaps, but in the presence of a source with no contradicting source... (Should this be added back then?)

I'm willing to spring for a footnote, introducing it with some phrase such as "After his death, it was said that...." But the fact that his daughter doesn't mention it is a pretty good indication that it's a fable unknown to her. There'd be every reason for her to want to tell it.--John Foxe (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps, but trying to figure that out is definitely OR.

You willing to go with the tale in a footnote that notes it first appeared in Scouting, undocumented, after Bartle's death?--John Foxe (talk) 21:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Sure.Naraht (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Done.--John Foxe (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, another mystery that perhaps you can help me with. I've left out mention of Bartle's WWI record (also covered by Monroe), in part because his daughter doesn't mention it, in part because it's incredible: Bartle was only 17 in 1918, and yet he's supposed to have been a major in France. In the Saturday Evening Post article, the author notes that Bartle "conceals his age even from his wife and daughter." That sort of thing raises my eyebrows. But unlike the Klan story, there should be military records.--John Foxe (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Monroe says he reached Major?Naraht (talk) 19:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Yep.--John Foxe (talk) 19:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Bizarre and see above for my question on the Klan issue.Naraht (talk) 19:28, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps Bartle created the veteran status in his early Boy Scout years because he looked old enough for the story to be true; his being a veteran would have given him a leg up when he applied for the Wyoming job.--John Foxe (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

The scout article also says Major...Naraht (talk) 20:17, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

(That's Monroe.) So does the NCAB. I don't believe that either.--John Foxe (talk) 21:02, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmm. I'll have to see what I can find in the Alpha Phi Omega fraternity magazine. Although President from 1931 to 1946, I think it can be at least somewhat a secondary source.Naraht (talk) 21:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

You can get Official Military Personnel Files from the National Archives in St. Louis. But, of course, you'd have to deal with the bureaucratic form and wait a while. (Here's one of those odd cases where a primary source might be OK.)--John Foxe (talk) 21:46, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

According to his daughter's book, Bartle "attended Fork Union for four years, graduating with honors in 1920." (26) But she also reports that he was Commander of the Heart of America Post of the American Legion and was cited by the Veterans of Foreign Wars in 1935 as Citizen of the Year. (137) Could Bartle have fooled both groups into believing that he was a veteran when he wasn't? A curious mystery.--John Foxe (talk) 17:24, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Attendance at either or both of the Kansas City Chiefs' Super Bowls?

Given his instrumental role in attracting Lamar Hunt and his AFL Dallas Texans to become the Kansas City Chiefs (after whom Hunt renamed them!), shouldn't there be some mention of whether he was in the crowd of the Los Angeles Coliseum for Super Bowl I in 1967 and/or New Orleans's Tulane Stadium for Super Bowl IV, four years before his death? [signed] FLORIDA BRYAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.153.107.81 (talk) 17:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Bartle was a busy guy. If he attended a Super Bowl game, his daughter's biography doesn't mention it.--John Foxe (talk) 19:18, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

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