Talk:Harris Associates

The first paragraph provides an inaccurate AUM. Also, Harris is the subadvisor to the Oakmark Funds. Legally, this is how it should be stated.

The investment philosophy provides no detail on the investment process which would be helpful information for investors.

The page dedicates a disproportionate amount of space on a court case which makes this Wiki page appear slanderous toward Harris.

The list of noteworthy investment managers is inaccurate both currently and historically. The page at a minimum should mention the founding partners.

Acclifton (talk) 17:49, 7 June 2013 (UTC)acclifton

Thank you for your comments, I've updated the AUM figure as I notice the source has also updated this.

Re the court case, it is a US Supreme Court case, notable enough that it has a standalone article (Jones v. Harris Associates) so this is clearly a significant event that should be documented here. Do you dispute any of the statements in this article regarding the case, if not what basis do you say it appears slanderous? (I would suggest caution in using terminology which could be construed as a legal threat as it is Wikipedia policy to block users who threaten legal action).

Re the other requested changes, please can you provide a source (preferably independent, please see WP:IRS)? January (talk) 18:18, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Ok - I will pull together some independent pieces from other sources such as the WSJ and Barrons to discuss the investment philosophy. Per the list of Portfolio Managers - this is information that is reported to FINRA, a government regulator but is also listed in the prospectus for the Oakmark Funds. - The prospectus can be found at https://www.oakmark.com/Oakmark/web/me.get?WEB.websections.show&OAKMARK_308 or on the SEC website at www.sec.gov. Acclifton (talk) 19:58, 7 June 2013 (UTC)acclifton

The list of current portfolio managers, per the prospectus (https://www.oakmark.com/Oakmark/web/me.get?WEB.websections.show&OAKMARK_308)or the SEC website at www.sec.gov. is:

• David Herro
• Bill Nygren
• Robert M. Levy
• Kevin G. Grant
• Clyde McGregor
• Anthony P. Coniaris
• Rob Taylor
• Matt Logan
• Colin Hudson
• Mike Manelli
• Eddie Wojciechowski
• Win Murray

Please remove all of the other names, including the list of former investment professionals. I have no idea where this list came from since it's not cited. Harris Associates L.P., was founded in 1976. The original founding partners of Harris included Victor Morgenstern, Myron Szold, Roger Brown, Ralph Wanger, Joe Braucher, Peter Foreman, Ed Neisser and Earl Rusnak.

Please add this to the Investment Process and Philosophy, per the prospectus which can be found on the SEC website.

Key tenets of the Oakmark investment philosophy: 1. Buy businesses that are trading at a significant discount to the Firm’s estimate of the company’s intrinsic value. At the time Harris buys a company, the Firm wants the company’s stock to be inexpensive relative to what it believes the entire business is worth. 2. Invest with companies expected to grow shareholder value over time. Value investors can sometimes fall into the trap of buying a stock that is inexpensive for a reason—because the company just does not grow. Harris looks for good quality, growing businesses with positive free cash flow and intelligent investment of cash. 3. Invest with management teams that think and act as owners. Harris seeks out companies with management teams that understand the dynamics of per share value growth and are focused on achieving such growth. Stock ownership and incentives that align managements’ interests with those of shareholders are key components of this analysis.

"Four of the seven Oakmark funds rank in the top 1% or 2% of their respective catefories for five-year results, according to morningstar" - http://online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424052748704882404578390772279784116.html#articleTabs_article%3D0

I updated the investment managers, but I think the list of tenets is a bit too promotional in tone. An encyclopedia article should be aimed the general reader not potential investors and shouldn't read like a prospectus. Perhaps a more neutral summary could be done based on the Barrons source.

I think the last statement needs paraphrasing to avoid using the source's exact wording and make it more understandable to the general reader. This is my attempt, does it make sense? "According to research by Morningstar in April 2013 which analyzed the performance of the seven Oakmark funds over a five-year period, four were ranked in at least the top 2% in their relevant categories."

By the way what exactly is the relationship between Harris Associates and Oakmark Funds - is it your brand name or are you advising on funds for a firm called Oakmark? Perhaps the article should explain this. January (talk) 17:02, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Harris Associates created and manages the Oakmark funds, but they're not inseparable. Actually, that's a story that might be on this page if it were a substantially longer article. Back in the early 90s their mutual fund (not a dominant part of the company then) was The Acorn Fund. Its management decided to leave the company and bought it out from Harris Associates. Harris then needed to start a new fund and went acorn to oak, hence Oakmark Demigord (talk) 18:56, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

list of manages

I've worked a good deal here with this sort of article, and I think the list altogether inappropriate--similar lists do not appear elsewhere in WP. . The place for information of this sort is on the web page of the firm, which exists for the purpose of providing detailed internal information about the company. I have removed it,and will discuss any attempt to restore it at the appropriate place. DGG ( talk ) 22:48, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, many other pages list who the CEO, CFO, executive directors etc. Many even include pictures such as Harris MyCFO - a page I was viewing as I was researching for this. I would like to add the following to the page -

Harris Associates L.P., was founded in 1976 by Victor Morgenstern, Myron Szold, Roger Brown, Ralph Wanger, Joe Braucher, Peter Foreman, Ed Neisser and Earl Rusnak. These professionals, who had formerly worked in the private investment office of Irving Harris, a Chicago entrepreneur, created the value investment philosophy that the Harris Associates still uses. There is no direct relation to the Norman Harris that established Harris Bank – now BMO Harris Bank. Additionally Harris Associates is in no way affiliated with BMO Harris Bank.

Harris manages long-only U.S. equity, international equity, and global equity strategies which are offered through its mutual fund company, the Oakmark Funds, and through separate accounts. Harris is wholly owned by Natixis Global Asset Management, a French financial services firm that is principally owned by BPCE, France’s second largest banking group. Harris Associates retains full control of investment decisions, investment philosophy, and day-to-day operations.

ccreform

What exactly is meant by "created the value investment philosophy that the Harris Associates still uses"? They obviously didn't create the concept of value investing as according to our article that's been around much longer than this company has. Also can you provide sources for any of the above? January (talk) 16:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

I meant that the value investment philosophy/process that was used in 1976 is still used today. I could detail what their process is, but it seems wiki doesn't like to include details.

Also RJ Levy didn't found the firm. The current chariman is Robert Levy but according to a prior wiki talk, wiki doesn't allow the use of names?

ccreform

It's not that detail itself is necessarily a problem, it's that usually intricate details of a company's processes can only be sourced to the company themselves, and when the article is substantially based on the company itself as a source that compromises the article's neutrality. I think describing it as a philosophy makes it read as promotional and the statement as written is confusing to the general reader, perhaps a neutral way of describing it could be that the company has had the aim of being a value investor since it was founded.

The name of the chairman of a company is relevant, I don't see any problem with including that with a reliable source. Probably best to add {{Infobox company}} to the article and include this in the key people field. January (talk) 20:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Leaving the names of the current partners off of the page is fine since people come and go. It was important, thou, to have the names of the founding partners accurate. Per describing the firm as a 'value' firm - this is a style definition that is given to all firms by Morningstar. Some firms are categorized as growth, index, private equity, real estate...etc. It's a category box used to help investors understand a managers investment style. Ccreform (talk) 20:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)ccreform

I restored the material about the Supreme Court case per the previous discussion. I'll come back to this, but at a glance this statement "The investment process entails investing in businesses that are trading at a discount to instrinsic value. Instrinsic value is based on a 3-5 year DCF with the terminal mulitple heavily influenced by the quality of management and the company's ability to grow" also seems very confusing to the general reader, and elsewhere there are now a few unverified statements. January (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Morningstar is the unbiased source of information on the mutual fund world. Please pull their analysts reports on Harris or the Oakmark funds, just as I've sourced. I'm not sure how describing the investment process could be seen as biased? It's like a clothing manufacterer describing how they make clothes. This page should be educational to those who don't know anything about Harris or think they are affliated with Harris Bank. It's weird that there is so much verbiage about the 2009 law suit when assets under managment were less than $30B at that point in time. The firm has tripled in size over the last four years, but there's no real information anywhere on this page explaining how the firm invests its clients money. If I'm googling an investment firm, the question I want answered is - how do they invest? ccreform

I can't read the Morningstar source as its subscription only, but the issue is with the wording of the statement which does not to me read neutrally. The section on the Supreme Court case is four sentences long, that is not at all excessive. January (talk) 22:02, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

You can get a free 10 day trial to use their research. Which statement is bothering you? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ccreform ([[Use [r talk:Ccreform|talk]] • contribs)

I was replying to your comment under the assumption that it related to the statement I removed [1]. (This will have to be my last reply tonight as it's past midnight where I am.) January (talk) 23:43, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

The Supreme Court case verbiage read "The suit previously had been thrown out by the United States Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit in 2008, with a judge who is a noted free-market backer, Richard Posner arguing that sometimes marketplaces need to be reined in.[7][8]

In March 2010, the Supreme Court unanimously vacated the Seventh Circuit's ruling and remanded the case.[9]

Now there is a lot more language included. This lawsuit was industry wide and showed that advisors can charge different fees based on the amount of money invested. It's kind of like when you go to the grocery store and buy one banana vs. 10 bananas. Some grocery stores might give you a discount for buying 10 vs. 1. The language around this lawsuit doesn't even make sense. Ccreform (talk) 15:30, 10 July 2013 (UTC)ccreform

You removed the first two sentences without any discussion or explanation here, I restored the section back to how it was before your edits. (I didn't originally write it.) January (talk) 15:38, 10 July 2013 (UTC)

Exor is not a subsidiary

I think it is incorrect to list Exor n.v. as a subsidiary, it is just an investment like many others. Exor is a holding company majority owned by the Agnelli family and operates completely independent of Harris Associates. It makes no sense to list it as its subsidiary. Itemirus (talk) 08:44, 17 May 2020 (UTC)