Talk:Harry Roberts (footballer, born 1904)

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Due to first reference he was born in 1904 and died in 1968. -- Jesi (talk) 11:16, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

I have changed this, citing it to Joyce 2012, and removed the note.

The editor that wrote the note doesn't appear to be editing anymore, so it's difficult to confirm what research went into that (@pinging anyway:). I'm not sure it was appropriate (one might consider it original research, and it also expects the reader to put the work into verifying those claims). I have removed it for those reasons, and also because it doesn't fit with what the 2012 edition of the Joyce book states (the citation previously was for the 2004 edition so this has probably been updated). The new date is a different 1906 one. Obviously, this is also at odds with the 1904 GoS date. I've always found GoS to be a great source of information, but ultimately it is self-published, so I would always favour a published source unless there are good reasons not to. I've sent GoS an e-mail for clarification though. Nzd (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

I've spoken with the guy that runs GoS and based on that information, I don't now think that Joyce is correct. I've reproduced the key bits of our conversation below:

The 2004 edition [of Joyce's book] says he was Henry Bramley Roberts (not true), born in Crofton (true) on 27/6/1902 (not true) and died in 1963 (not true).

A couple of things have changed [between the 2004 and 2012 editions]. Bramley has become Bromley and his DoB has changed from 27/6/02 to 12/5/06.

FreeBMD (also Ancestry etc) shows just one Henry Bramley, registered in Sheffield in 1906 and died in Sheffield in 1978 (with DoB of 18/6/06). It also shows just one Henry Bromley, registered in Wakefield in 1906 and died in Leeds in 1977 (with a DoB of 12/5/06).

So it looks like the Wakefield registration has led Michael Joyce to change to Henry Bromley rather than Henry Bramley, although why he thought that either of these was our man, I don't know.

I am 100% convinced that both are wrong, and that's because of the first three attachments, which show beyond doubt that he died on 18 May 1968, so he could not have been Joyce's Bramley or Bromley. It also says he was 63, which places his DoB between May 1904 and May 1905.

I've an awful lot of [emails] for Roberts - probably 50 and more from 2012 to early 2015, all on the subject of his DoB. Most were a dialogue with two Leeds expert historians (Michael Joyce was kept in touch too), and with the help of these Evening Herald clippings and work that they did, we are very happy with the 1904 date. That's because one of them obtained the last attachment, the record of Roberts' baptism in Crofton All Saints Parish Church (and everyone agrees he was born in Crofton). Luckily, although the baptism register only required the date of the baptism, they also recorded the birth date in the left margin. Bingo, 27-6-04

The attachments he refers to are:

• "Death of Former Argyle Captain". Evening Herald. Plymouth. 18 May 1968.
• "Deaths". Evening Herald. Plymouth. 20 May 1968.
• Baptism record

As pointed out above, the Evening Herald reference proves that Joyce can't be right as it specifically says that he was 63.

I am proposing that the details be changed and that the page be moved to Harry Roberts (footballer, born 1904). Although GoS is technically self-published, I have always found it to be reliable and have cited it in the past, and I believe the above demonstrates a level of research that equals any published source. However, as this goes against a current published source, I wanted to make sure there were no objections. Nzd (talk) 05:10, 5 January 2018 (UTC)

@Nzd: When I wrote the thing in the first place it was clear that Joyce (2004) had to be wrong, so I went with GoS's (then) 1906. The new information makes it clear that that was wrong as well, and there's no problem with the reliability of sourcing (IMO) given the stature of the people you've been in touch with. Thank you so much for doing this. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:22, 5 January 2018 (UTC)