Talk:Hassan Abbasi

Recent blog

http://regimechangeiran.blogspot.com/2006/03/hassan-abbasi-america-means-enemy-and.html

Metallurgy, 1976 ... --HResearcher 16:21, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Hassan Abbasi / Mohammad-Hassan Abbasi

there are several problems on this page. firstly, the picture is of the wrong person. he is also a dr abassi, but another one. secondly, i believe the quotes are very biased and used to show only ceratin views of him. wikipedsia is an encyclopedia, not propoganda tool —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.232.148.109 (talk • contribs)

Thank you for pointing this out, I corrected the misinformation. Let me know if there are still problems. --HResearcher 10:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotes

So is someone going to remove the quotes at least temporary? Random quotes are hardly helpful to an encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jnusaira (talk • contribs)

I am not sure if the quote on there really should be on their either.

If you look at the referenced source it says :

"Our youths who are ready for martyrdom will be more effective in striking the enemy than any missiles system," Abbasi allegedly vowed to the would-be suicide bombers at the cemetery Behesht Zahra in Tehran on Thursday night.

-- note the key word "alledgedly" vowed. So the referenced article itself is even admitting its heresay

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jnusaira (talk • contribs)

This page reads as a badly written spot for the current iranian government, marked the page as non NPOV --Cnuova (talk) 00:18, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Statements like "However, he has not been taken serious by the majority of the students." do not really belong here, because they are opinions, not facts. If they can't be verified, I'm going to take them down.

69.235.15.206 (talk) 23:49, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Article problems

I am from Persian wikipedia and Just wanted to note some problems about this article, many claims about this person made in this article are not verifiable by valid sources for example being a political scientist or being an intelligence officer or advisor to people like president or supreme leader ,... To my knowledge This person is a lecturer who speak about controversial subjects who became famous by NY post article that I cant find it (link is dead). I have a hard time to find more than one or two reliable Persian sources to complete the article but all I can find is you-tube clips or primary sources, one of reasons I don't like to suggest deletion of this in Persian wikipedia is the existence of this English version.Achaemenes (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

OK, it seems that English wikipedia articles' claims came from this article where are its sources? It is funny that how serious this person has been taken by Americans and how satisfied he became when he found out that he have been mentioned by some one out side his Fan base and more than that from USA! In Iran there are few who take this person serious, the most famous quote from him is: "chewing gum for children are mixed with alcohol to make them alcoholics later".Achaemenes (talk) 20:22, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Purging the article

@Benyamin-ln: This BLP is about a controversial person and that should make editors hesitant to add content without rigorous reliable sources. I think the article has turned into a soapbox for neocons, both in the United States and Iran and we should deal with the op-eds cited (WP:RS restricts using them). I would like to ask you about the recent edits you made, since you seem the only active editor involved. Is there any source other than Fars News Agency or his own account, confirming his career or that he was present during the war? (The claim is questioned, the source cited for DoB quotes Ali Shamkhani denying his involvement). Moreover, years of service and police career lack references. Pahlevun (talk) 20:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)

@Pahlevun: Hi Pahlevun. I ask you, what was said by Fars News in this article? «Abbasi served at War». Nothing else. You can see onother picture at here that proof he was at Operation Kheibar. Also It isn't an original research. op-eds are very good sources, but we can not ristrict the article only to these. Do you agree with me? (WP:BLPSOURCES) Another edit of me is a research from United States Army War College that published by Defense Technical Information Center said Abbasi and Mohammad Ali Jafari were the key architects of Iran's Doctrine of Asymmetric warfare. A well-known military organization said about a military doctrine. I can't found a published source for police career. Only this picture had found, which I think unacceptable for you... Benyamin-ln (talk) 12:09, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Please stick to the discussion topic, we can discuss other points later. It seems that Fars News is the only source for his career. One of the pillars of remaining neutral on Wikipedia is to avoid stating contested assertions as facts. (For example —not a matter of discussion yet— Hassan Abbasi and Major General Jafari were the key architects of Iran's Doctrine of Asymmetric warfare is stated as a fact, while In 2014, a security research of Hewlett-Packard claimed that the «Basij Cyber Council» operates under the direction of Abbasi is attributed to the publisher) His service during the war is disputed, but the way it is put in the infobox, is presenting it as a fact. I think WP:BLPSOURCES that you reffered to, is ironically against your own argument. ("This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable, and whether it is in a biography or in some other article. Material should not be added to an article when the only sourcing is tabloid journalism. When material is both verifiable and noteworthy, it will have appeared in more reliable sources"). Pahlevun (talk) 17:02, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Per WP:NEWSORG, op-eds "are rarely reliable for statements of fact" [Examples for op-eds in the article are writings of Clifford May, Amir Taheri and Michael Ledeen]. Pahlevun (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

@Benyamin-ln:. I think the current situation of the article needs immidiate action. Pahlevun (talk) 09:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi. immediate action for what? Benyamin-ln (talk) 10:52, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

For the abovementioned discussion. Pahlevun (talk) 10:57, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I read that. It begins with these sentences:

Persian: پیرو انتشار خبری در سایت عصرخبر و نقد اظهارات حسن عباسی در خصوص زنازادگان كره زمين ، فردی که خود را دانش آموخته وی اعلام کرده پاسخی به سایت عصرایران ارسال کرده و نظرات خود را در خصوص مطلب سایت عصرخبر اعلام کرد.

I wonder you mentioned this! Benyamin-ln (talk) 11:47, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Ignore the worthless link. Pahlevun (talk) 12:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

This is what you mentioned. A sentence on a live Talk show from Shamkhani after being challenged by Abbasi, not much valuable. I'm not see any BLP dispute. Benyamin-ln (talk) 21:37, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I guess you wouldn't told that if you have noticed that the case was deemed worth mentioning in the source (حسن عباسی؛ از یوگی تا پینوکیو. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)) added to the article by yourself:

یکی دیگر از حاشیه‌های «عباسی» به برنامه «دیروز، امروز، فردا» در سال ١٣٨٩ بازمی‌گردد که میهمان آن «علی شمخانی» بود. آن‌طور که برخی سایت‌های مانند «فردا» و «پارسینه» منتشر کرده‌اند، «در لحظات پایانی برنامه، «حسن عباسی» در اعتراض به صحبت‌های شمخانی، تماس گرفت و به شمخانی گفت: «اگر علت پذیرش اتمام جنگ، به خاطر استفاده عراق از سلاح شیمیایی بود، خب الان هم احتمال استفاده از سلاح هسته‌ای در مقابل ایران وجود دارد؛ پس ما باید تسلیم شویم؟! این کنایه آقای عباسی، البته برمی‌گشت به تحلیل‌های سابق وی درباره گزارش‌های محسن رضایی و هاشمی‌رفسنجانی به امام برای پایان جنگ. شمخانی هم جواب داد اگر حسن عباسی و عباسی‌های دیگر به جبهه می‌آمدند و ما کمبود نیرو نداشتیم، مسئله فرق می‌کرد».

It is interesting that theses remarks are made by then-commander of IRGC Navy, the exact branch Abbasi allegely served. While arguing that what is mentioned in your own source are from a "live talk show" and not reliable, you have used mere pictures as a source for Abbasi being a member of '66th Airborne Brigade' during 'Operation Fath 8', as well as a letter written by himself as a source for serving in the General Staff (Not surprisingly, all published by Fars News Agency). I am dissappointed to persuade you that such attitude towards using sources is cherry picking. I hope you agree that op-eds written by people like Amir Taheri (who is known for fabricating several fake news about Iran, including "Iranian sumptuary law") are not reliable per WP:NEWSORG. Pahlevun (talk) 12:42, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with your reasoning. That edit is because of adding the birth date and place of Abbasi. Assume good faith for me.
Despite quote mention of Shamkhani on some sites such as Parsine.com which is in conflict (In addition to WP:NEWSORG) with Abbasi, the subject matter (Emotional reaction on live talk show) has not changed. Along with Shamkhani's reaction, Ahmad Reza Pourdastan's letter to Abbasi on 2 August 2016 may be intersting:

Persian: برادر عزیزم، خرده گرفتن به کلامی از جنابعالی به معنای نفی مجاهدت‌ها و شجاعت ها و استحکام شما نبود که ما خود به عنوان همسنگرتان به مراتب بیش از عزیزان نسل سوم و چهارم به آن ایثارگری‌ها اشراف داریم

Other source for Operation Fat'h 8 is available.
After several discussions with you, I don't understand your problem with the news published by Fars News Agency. You can replace it with other such as YJC.ir
Benyamin-ln (talk) 12:40, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

From the beginning of this topic in October 2017 , I have raised two major issues: 1. Removal of op-eds. 2. To avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts, per WP:NPOV.

You have omitted the first, and challenged the second. All I'm saying about the second is that when X claims that A is true, and Y claims that A is false (i.e. it is seriously contested), we should not state A as a fact (only facts are ought to be in the infobox). I don't get your point on how WP:CONFLICT applies to something other than user behavior, and how statements made on air which are covered in reliable source, are not reliable. Regarding how reliable is Fars News in such cases, I think WP:RSN is the solution. Pahlevun (talk) 18:18, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

1. If a emotional reaction on a Talk show (Shamkhani has never talked about it anymore) can be challenge the serving of him in war (you claimed), what is your opinion about Pourdastan's open letter to Abbasi?
2. Is Parsine.com reliable and Fars News Agency unreliable?!
I think you have not any problem with reliability of Fars News Agency and used its news as facts, so it seems better that we discuss only on Hassan Abbasi.
You are using Op-eds in other articles but now you want removal of them on this article. I oppose, there is no need for this job.
Benyamin-ln (talk) 11:26, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

The diffs you gathered by following me around to make a tu quoque response literally changes nothing, rather than making this discussion personal. It doesn't matter what edits I have made before, because in no way, it will not affect the reliability standards of Wikipedia: op-eds "are rarely reliable for statements of fact". (This is out of context but, for your information, an interview differs from an op-ed and that certain interview is reliable enough for Wikipedia per WP:IV, because the interviewee is an expert historian. The other one is a false analogy, because it is not a "seriously contested assertion" that Jafari was awarded that medal of honor. However, what we are discussing is contested by others). Now, responding to your questions: 1. The letter does not state that Abbasi had fought in the war, and calling a serviceman hamsangar, by the writer who has sued him on behalf of his military branch, seems nothing more than an ordinary taarof to me. So, it is a mere OR to say that this letter indicates that Abbasi has fought in the war. Even if the letter explicitly stated it, it was a primary source. It would still remain a "seriously contested assertion". 2. The issue is not a comparision between reliability the two news websites you mentioned. I don't understant why you constantly ask about Parsine, while the Shargh source you used in the article mentions Farda as well, and this is even covered in outlets such as Rajanews (شمخانی در آن برنامه ادعا کرده بود "عباسی که حتی یک روز هم سابقه جبهه ندارد، حق اعتراض به مدیریت فرماندهان جنگ را ندارد"). I suggested an inquiry at RSN, because this is not the only article we have dispute over using this particluar news agency as a source reliable for statements of facts. Pahlevun (talk) 13:58, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

This person's website

https://dr-abbasi.ir/

Please add this person's website--مهدی بهرامی مطلق (talk) 10:33, 4 November 2020 (UTC)