Talk:Hassan Pasha (Mamluk)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 10:14, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

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• ... that in 1704, former slave Ḥassan Pasha became Governor of Baghdad? Source: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Brief_History_of_Iraq/Q_-hrXU-mWYC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=a+brief+history+of+iraq+by+hala+mundhir+fattah&printsec=frontcover
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Michael Vinson

Created by Annwfwn (talk) and Ayham4002 (talk). Nominated by Annwfwn (talk) at 01:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Hassan Pasha (Mamluk); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Great hook! Long enough, created within the window, generally seems like a fine article and QPQ done. Source is provided but I can't immediately verify the "former slave" part (I appreciate that "Mamluk" usually implies it, but needs spelling out to avoid being WP:OR), though the "governor of Baghdad" part is no issue. Could you provide a direct quote? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:11, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Well this is super embarrassing because it isn't very specific. This is pages 128-129 under Mamluk Dynasty:

Hassan Pasha and Ahmad Pasha, however, are primarily remembered for a longer-lasting development that marked their tenure in power. As inheritors of a patrimonial Ottoman tradition that emphasized the conversion of Christian youths from the southern Caucus, who were either captured in battle or sold to Ottoman commanders by their kinfolk, Hassan Pasha and Ahmad Pasha began to import young Georgian boys by the hundreds to Baghdad to reproduce the same imperial system. These "slaves to the sultan," later called mamluk or mamalik (literally "owned," in Arabic) were taught to read and write in several languages, follow the Islamic religion, and train in martial arts at palace schools. They staffed the various regiments, households and extended family networks of important army commanders, the first being Hassan Pasha and Ahmad Pasha themselves.

Pinging @Ayham4002: as I don't have access to the other source tagged in the article: Bosworth's Historic Cities of the Islamic World. I went ahead and removed that from the article. May I suggest an alt?

• • ALT1: ...that the Governor of Baghdad Ḥassan Pasha purchased his future grandson-in-law Sulaiman Agha who would also become Governor of Baghdad? Source: Longrigg, Stephen Hemsley (1925). Four Centuries of Modern Iraq (PDF). p. 165. Annwfwn (talk) 12:09, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm: concept is good but the hook itself needs some work. Firstly, I don't think we can have purchased without some sort of context ("as a slave"), for example. The hook also rambles a bit, in my very subjective view. How about something like:

• ALT2: ...that a slave of Ḥassan Pasha, governor of Baghdad, married Hassan's granddaughter and became governor of the same city?

I wonder whether Sulaiman's name harms more than it helps, given that the hook is about Hassan.

Separately, the article has a reference to Hassan's slave origin which I also can't verify from the provided source. I've added a template to request a direct quotation: if we now think it's more likely that Hassan only purchased slaves, as opposed to being one, we should remove that detail.

UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:15, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes! I like ALT2 much better. I did remove all references to Hassan being a slave pending that last source. Annwfwn (talk) 12:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

There's a couple of maintenance tags outstanding in the article (a clarification and a CN). Could you fix them before we approve? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 12:28, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Ayham4002 (talk) 12:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC) Forgive me for the late reply but yes I like ALT2 much better too! As for Hassan Pasha being a slave in Bosworth's Historic Cities of the Islamic World page 43 says:

Hasan Pasha, who was brought up in the Ottoman slave household, wanted to follow its example; he established houses and initiated the training of Circassian and Georgian Mamluks and the sons of local magnates in them.

So I'm pretty sure that confirms it to some extent.

Thank you! I'm off to work so I'll be stepping away from Wikipedia for now. I'll check in later. Annwfwn (talk) 13:22, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Noting that these issues are all fixed, so Approved for ALT2. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:55, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

@UndercoverClassicist and Annwfwn: My concern is that ALT2 is not about the subject of the nomination. It also is hard to understand IMO. ALT1 is more about the subject. Lightburst (talk) 21:32, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm still not happy with a no-context "purchased", but if it can be reworked to solve that, I'd have no issue: it's now sourced fine. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 21:38, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

Could do an ALT3: ...Ḥassan Pasha, the governor of Baghdad, once purchased a slave who married his granddaughter and became governor of the same city?

This is excellent. I support whatever alt you guys decide. Annwfwn (talk) 22:02, 28 October 2023 (UTC)