Talk:Violent incidents in reaction to the Israel–Hamas war

7 October here

I dont really think that is whats meant as part of the scope here? Its about hate crimes outside of the war. nableezy - 20:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

There are laws against people committing hate crimes, in some countries, but evidence that a crime is included in this article is considered a "hate crime" is needed. The lead section claims "numerous anti-Semitic, Islamophobic and anti-Palestinian motivated attacks took place both internally and internationally in response to the conflict", yet the article only lists five of them. The Hamas call for a "Global day of Rage" (which some have called Jihad) is not, itself, a hate crime. While the shooting in Egypt isn't a hate crime because that country doesn't have hate crime laws to define what hate crime is or is not. And that is the problem with using the term "hate crime" in the title; first you need to prove it. Frankly, anybody contributing to this article, in its current state, needs to be very certain of their sources' reliability when claiming something is a hate crime, otherwise they are at risk of injecting their own opinions into an article and editorializing on the subject or worse. This article ought to be merged (back) into the 2023 Israel–Hamas war where a suitable subsection on hate crime can be started, and then maybe split out if there is enough content to justify a sub-article. Alternatively, just call it "Violent crime related to the 2023 Israel-Hamas war and duplicate the current article about the war. The whole war is a hate crime by the definition at the beginning of the article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:31, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Mostly agree, we're left with one charged hate crime so far. nableezy - 11:40, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that this seems nonsensical. These are war crimes, which are on a completely different level from hate crimes, as well as being the cause of the war, so they're not just related to it, they are it. I assume readers arriving at this page will be expecting information on the spread of associated hate crime and attacks, not a rehashed repeat of the core event itself. For that they'll go look at Operation Al-Aqsa Flood instead of here for duplicated content. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:28, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: Would you agree with the 7 October section being redirected to Operation Al-Aqsa Flood? Or should this article be merged into the 2023 Israel–Hamas war in its entirety? Given how specific an offence a hate crime is, and the difficulty saying that a crime is a hate crime without a conviction, I thing this article is likely to be little more than a proving ground for the unconscious bias of Wikipedia editors who do not understand what a hate crime really is. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

If similar or overlapping statements are not there already then I would copy the material there. The problem is not with the content, but its placement here. It feels like in the context of this page, the Hamas-led attacks are the background material - the instigating act, in an imminent sense, for the current cycle of conflict and hate - so they should be mentioned briefly up near the top of the page and linking elsewhere appropriately. Iskandar323 (talk) 04:48, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Scope overlap

We're now getting some major scope overlap with Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, which is basically replicating much the scope we have here, hate attacks and what not, but POV. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:33, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Iskandar323: As I understand Wikipedia's neutral point of view editing policy it means one should edit neutrally, not necessarily strive for neutral content. If the source material itself is biased then Wikipedia articles need to present the bias in that information in a neutral and proportionate way, without editors injecting their own viewpoints into articles and editorializing as a result. The problem here is that some editors are all to willing to classify something as a hate crime, or as Antisemitism, or Islamophobia, etc. when the reliable sources do not say that is definitely the case or are simply silent on the issue. That editing behaviour results in editorial bias, because it injects one's personal prejudices into an article. Given the inherent scope for systemic bias in both article being so large, I think both articles should be merged into other larger and more neutral articles that provide a broader context for the content that people want to contribute here. Both articles are sub-article of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, which would be my first preference as a merger target. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:08, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Good question about scope overlap. The surge in antisemitism has been broadly documented in a wide array of sources, so objectively it merits a stand-alone page. "Hate crimes" is a narrow legal designation, so I'm not sure if a standalone page on it like here really makes sense. Most of the sourcing here doesn't mention hate crimes, so perhaps it needs a broader title. Loksmythe (talk) 03:15, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

West Bank violence

Here's a new report on soldiers and settlers attacking West Bank civilians

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-settlers-alleged-to-bind-strip-beat-burn-and-pee-on-palestinians-in-w-bank/ Hovsepig (talk) 18:43, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Hovsepig: But that is not a hate crime because the Israeli authorities haven't charged or convicted anybody of a "hate crime", yet. So far, it is only an allegation of assault. But the way the article is pitched suggests it could be terrorism. But calling it a hate crime on the basis of that report is injecting one's own unconscious bias into the story, and that is both editorializing and a non-neutral viewpoint. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The solution may be simply to make the title less technical, if the terminology is the issue. There have been a spate of attacks on people around the world for motivations transparently related to the associated conflict - what, as an alternative, would you have us call this collection of conflict-driven assault incidents? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:54, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

You both make sense. Perhaps the title is the problem and we can say 'Violent reactions to the war', or as Camerone_Dewe suggested above "Violent crimes related to the 2023 Israel-Hamas war"? The renaming though I think would then require moving the Oct 7 events though because the hate crimes of Oct 7 (which are of course violent crimes) are not a 'reaction' to the war but a cause of them. Hovsepig (talk) 01:50, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Hovsepig: I think you have put your finger on the crucial issue with this article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:20, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

My mind didn't immediately cease upon the right term to use, but "violent crime" definitely seems like the right way to go - it's descriptive, but without assigning intent. Violent crimes related to the 2023 Israel-Hamas war or Violent crimes in reaction to the 2023 Israel-Hamas war would work. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:29, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I vote for 'violent crimes in reaction' -- it's more specialized than 'related' so we don't have to duplicate the Oct 7 massacre. Hovsepig (talk) 19:41, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

I would broadly agree - 'reaction to' helps specifies events outside of the main arena of the conflict itself, whereas 'related to' would perpetuate the current ambiguity. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:46, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel Frey and anti-anti-war crimes

I think we should specify a section on "hate crimes against Israelis by other Israelis" The current section titling creates a bias to think that all the anti-Israeli crimes are done by Hamas or pro-Palestinian people. A nice example to cite is Israel Frey

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-15/ty-article/.premium/far-right-israelis-threaten-attack-journalist-who-dedicated-a-prayer-to-gaza-victims/0000018b-3434-d450-a3af-7d3ccb9d0000 Hovsepig (talk) 18:46, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Hovsepig: And why do you consider this assault to be a hate crime? Frey appears to have been targeted for his specific views and actions, not because he just happens to be a member of an identifiable group of people. The issue with calling this a hate crime is the motives of the attackers. If the attackers assaulted Frey because what he said and did enraged them to assault him, then it is assault. But if the attackers simply chose him at random out of a group of people who were otherwise indistinguishable as a group and going about their business, and the authorities subsequently determined the motives of the attackers was to assault a representative of the group at random and not Frey personally, then that would suggest a hate crime had been committed. The problem with a hate crime is that it goes to the prejudice motivations of the perpetrator, as well as the perceptions of the victim. And that often needs a court of law to determine, after examining all the evidence. Hate crimes are crimes of prejudice and depend on what the perpetrators are thinking at the time of the crime. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 23:42, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Cameron_Dewe you make sense. Though where would you think this event should be documented then? There seems to be a dearth of information on Wikipedia about the ongoing anti-war events (and their backlash) that have been happening in Israel. Perhaps the Reactions in Israel section of the war needs to be its own page that documents the wide variety of events? Hovsepig (talk) 01:46, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

@Hovsepig: Remember that Wikipedia is not a news website. Adding this incident to the Reactions in Israel section of the 2023 Israel–Hamas war would seem a reasonable response. However, whether the Reactions in Israel section warrants its own sub-article is something that you will need to negotiate with other contributors. With so many things happening, many similar small news-like events will be lost in the fog of war that might otherwise be notable in isolation. I think you will need to demonstrate some degree of on-going persistence of coverage. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 02:17, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Motive is not know but Synagogue leader killed

Multiple outlets are reporting on the stabbing death of a Synagogue leader in Detroit - Samantha Wolf. The motive is not currently reported but figured it may be included later depending on the resulting investigation. [1]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/21/us/detroit-synagogue-stabbing-samantha-woll.html Leaky.Solar (talk) 15:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Samantha Woll Jim 2 Michael (talk) 17:44, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

Information useful to the article

• Antisemitic, Islamophobic offenses soar in London after Israel attacks, Reuters, 20 October 2023. GnocchiFan (talk) 19:06, 22 October 2023 (UTC)

Definition of a hate crime

A hate crime is a legal term, and its definition varies by jurisdiction. We should not include any event here unless there has been a conviction (or at least an indictment) for a hate crime. Given that has not happened for most events in this article and give that we already have Anti-Palestinianism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war, this article should probably be deleted.VR _talk 02:34, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

See also the parallel discussion under "West Bank violence" above. Iskandar323 (talk) 03:54, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 24 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus for it to be moved to Violent incidents in reaction to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war was established below. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 05:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

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Hate crimes related to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war → Violent crime in reaction to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war – Per several talk page discussions in the sections above this RM, this page needs moving to A) avoid the specific technically defined meaning of 'hate crime', which cannot really be assigned to events without a clear assessment of motives and/or prosecution as such in court (it is also defined differently in different countries), and B) distinguish itself from the scope of the violent crime committed within the course of the main conflict, which are war crimes, as these are covered elsewhere and this page was clearly specifically created to cover the events around the world outside of this. The move is also beneficial in terms of reducing the potential confusion and/or crossover in scope with the other prejudice-oriented pages that have been created in relation to the conflict, i.e.: Anti-Palestinianism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war and Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. It makes sense to cleanly distinguish violent crimes related to the conflict (that may or may not be based on prejudice, and for which the jury is still out) from the broader documentation of the rise in prejudice. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:01, 24 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I concur. Note also that it seems that the above 3 links (anti-palestinianism, anti-semiticism, and the violent crimes) are all absent from the Outline page Hovsepig (talk) 00:08, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

If the article is not to be outright deleted, I believe some kind of move is necessary. But "violent crime" seems to be far too generic. Hope we can come up with something more appropriate. Loksmythe (talk) 00:56, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I'm not comfortable calling things a "crime" unless there is a conviction, or at the very least an indictment or charge. I suppose we could have an article called "Violent reactions to the 2023 Israel-Hamas war", but we'd need to specify that "violent reactions" don't include anything that is part of the war itself.VR _talk 05:00, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

  I think "violent reactions" would be entering the realm of euphemism. "Violent crime" is an extremely broad, non-specific category relative to "hate crime", which is tightly defined. Violent crime is almost purely descriptive, being a concept that is clearly outlined as delineating forms of illegal assault on a person in a given jurisidiction. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

• I believe "Violent incidents in reaction to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" or "Violence and racism in reaction to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" would work better than the other proposed titles ... though between "Antisemitism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war" and "Anti-Palestinianism during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war", I'm not convinced this page is necessary or adds much value. Loksmythe (talk) 17:57, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well there have been attacks against anti-war Jewish protestors, like the Israel Frey event in the talk page. So there's a level of violence against protestors regardless if the protestor is Jewish or Arab/Palestinian/Muslim. Perhaps the current page can be deleted and replaced by the current pages for anti-semitism and anti-Palestinianism, alongside an article on general violence against protestors regardless of the protestor's ethnicity Hovsepig (talk) 07:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support Violent incidents in reaction to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war per Loksmythe. "Violent incident" is broad enough that wikipedia users can themselves make the determination whether something is an "incident" or not and whether it is "violent" or not. I don't think wikipedia users can determine if something is a crime, let alone a hate crime, and most RS don't make legal allegations directly either.VR _talk 00:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

  I don't mind this either. It would also be an improvement. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:51, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Support Violent incidents in reaction to the 2023 Israel–Hamas war. It's the best suggestion so far. Nurg (talk) 22:46, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stalking and harassment are violence

This incident was removed because it was "not violent", but it is. According to Violence, the second definition of violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation." 'Nuff said? Kire1975 (talk) 00:56, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

No mention of stalking or harassment in the definition provided above. \\ Loksmythe // (talk) 01:21, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Nevertheless, stalking and harassment are violence. Call for consensus.Kire1975 (talk) 05:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

• Comment Making the comment here since third opinion was requested. I would say there should be inclusion because the above definition clearly notes that "psychological harm" is "violence". The article already notes what is being described as "physically threatening" and as such there should be no harm in including the incident about stalking and harassment. Aman Kumar Goel ^(Talk) 08:53, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Violent Incident during Save Gaza Dharna in Pakistan

Please Add this violent incident that took place in D-Chowk Dharna (in pakistan) where a speeding car over the protestors resulting in 2 deaths and 4 injuries.

References

https://www.brecorder.com/news/40304597

https://www.arabnews.pk/node/2516781/pakistan

[2]Two killed, four injured in Islamabad as car runs over protesters in their sleep - Dawn News

https://tribune.com.pk/story/2467450/vehicle-runs-over-kills-two-gaza-solidarity-sit-in-protestors-in-islamabad

https://propakistani.pk/2024/05/26/military-police-takes-custody-of-army-officer-for-killing-2-pro-palestine-protesters/ اقبال کا شاہین (talk) 11:19, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Very tragic. However it's unclear if there was a motive related to the war. Prodrummer619 (talk) 16:27, 15 July 2024 (UTC)