Talk:Havergal Brian

Since Beethoven

Expl of revert: symphonies written even after the Prague - one of the first symphonies that really could not be used, like the Haffner, to encircle (first three mvts begin, finale close, as in a known concert) a program - still were of the 20-minute type for some time, though no longer so closely related to the Italian sinfonia (I refer to Haydn's contemporaries, not just to Mozart and Haydn, of course.) But after the Eroica it becomes even less acceptable speaking very generally to write such a thing because the audience conception of "symphony" gradually changes. Do I make sense? I am generalizing and very much so, yes. Schissel | Sound the Note! 17:09, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Of course even if taking the 20-25 minute Haydn symphony as directly comparable with symphonies that came after, the reference to Mozart would be inept and the text should say Haydn, since Haydn's last symphonies post-date Mozart's death by several years. Haydn's Symphony No.104 (the 'London') dates from 1795 - and is, incidentally, almost certainly quoted in the finale of Brian's Symphony No.11. But I take the point, and don't advocate such a change: for all that there was a Baroque/Classical aspect to Brian's productivity in his late years, he was definitely writing post-Beethovenian symphonies. Cenedi 20:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality?

Some of the biographical detail seems to stem from Eastaugh's 1976 book, which has been noted (by both MacDonald and Nettel, the other of Brian's biographers) for a tendancy to sensationalise the more salacious aspects of Brian's personal life up to 1913 and ignore much thereafter - for example, Brian did not simply write for Musical Opinion, he was the assistant editor from 1927 to 1940. Brian enlisted in both wars, as a private in the Honourable Artillery Company in 1914, but was consigned to desk work as a clerk after an injury in 1915, and later he was assigned the morbid task of cataloguing the effects of deceased soldiers; "farcical" seems a pejorative description of this, when as a nearly 40-year-old Brian would have been less likely than most to face active service. During World War II he again worked as a civil servant this time for the Ministry for Supply, until retiring in 1948. What about Brian's doctorate honoris causa in 1967? Or the Gothic Symphony's near success in the 1928 Columbia competition? Also, there is nothing to say why Brian had such a late "Indian summer" of composition - 27 symphonies, 4 operas, and 7 other significant orchestral works after that time. I'd suggest splitting the article strongly along encyclopaedic lines of § life, § works, § worklist, § references, § links to recordings, resources, etc.

Is the amount of detail on the two Leicestershire Schools Orchestra recordings really warranted? They may be the first but they are certainly not the only recordings now, and some later performances by professional orchestras clearly surpass them in terms of technique and mature interpretation.

And lastly, to deal with the first statement in the article - "He acquired a legendary status at the time of his rediscovery in the 1950s and 1960s for the number of symphonies he had managed to write" - is somewhat inaccurately put: Brian's rediscovery can be strongly linked to the promotion and BBC broadcasts of his middle symphonies (no's. 8-12) in the 1950s by Robert Simpson. At an even more basic level, Simpson's exposure to one particular work, the Symphony No. 8, which in his words "knocked him sideways" upon reading the first few pages of score, was the first Brian symphony to gain performance, the success of which then led to others. But as late as 1958 Brian had only written 12 symphonies - the remaining 20 span the decade from 1959 to 1968. The previous decade of work from 1948 to 1957 had seen 7 symphonies and the 4 late operas, which also surely deserve to be mentioned (merely in terms of their shameful neglect!), but are not. Certainly by the time of the Gothic premiére Brian's continuing pace of composition into his 80's and 90's was a notable (or notorious) factor in his newly re-found fame, but the term "rediscovery" surely belongs back in the context of the 1950s. Philip Legge _{phi1ip@netscape·net} 02:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I've made a few edits to try and improve the article - not comprehensively at all, just a few minor changes. Previously the article contained statements that were outright wrong, such as claiming that "many of Brian's later works are for massive forces" (none of his symphonies besides nos. 1 and 4 call for particularly large orchestras) and the suggestion that Brian's symphonies get shorter with time, which is just not true after No. 7 (e.g. no.21 is the next longest after 1-4 and 7); his last symphony is over 20 minutes which puts it easily in the top half. Some of the more subjective statements I just removed, plus a few changes to make it a bit more scholarly in tone (it no longer describes his music as "brassy"). Hope there's a consensus that I've improved it, if not, feel free to revert any or all the changes I made. User_talk:Figaro-ahp — Preceding undated comment added 13:43, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Prometheus Unbound

Was the "unpublished masterpiece" Prometheus Unbound posthumously published or lost? It can't be both! Hugo999 (talk) 13:57, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

I believe that the full score has been lost, but a partial score has been posthumously published.Transcendentalstate (talk) 16:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

List of compositions

I am very much surprised at not seeing such a link here today.
Listening to Symphony No. 2 (Marco Polo), Varlaam (talk) 15:42, 29 September 2011 (UTC)

Unsung Composers

Doesn't the link to that forum present a copyright violation? Toccata quarta (talk) 11:18, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't for a moment deny Robert Simpson any credit, but - as a fourteen year-old in 1951- I became aware of Brian through Nettel's 1945 book - which included the first page of the Gothic Symphony - and I think Nettel's efforts should be mentioned in the main text. And the Henry Watson Music Library in Manchester had a vocal score of The Tigers in the fifties, if I remember rightly. It was broadcast in the eighties. Wasn't Granville Bantock another earlier supporter?Delahays (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Original Research in the Music section? Needs work

I tagged this section due to the lack of in-line citations to support some of the paragraphs (some tags are now two years old and the originators have never addressed them) and the fact that some over-glowing fannish POV comments are being utilized. This is not encyclopedic. 98.67.178.139 (talk) 09:35, 27 May 2016 (UTC)