Talk:Heat recovery ventilation

Untitled

As houses in cold climates are built tighter in terms of air leakage, Heat Recovery Ventilators have become required equipment so that fresh air is supplied to occupants.

Different shortcuts and types

I created just a discussion in the newsgroup alt.energy.renewable about correct translations of the German

"Lüftung mit Wärmerückgewinnung".

Common translations and shortcuts are

air to air heat exchanger heat recovery ventilator or HRV (heat recovery only) MHRV Mechanical Heat Recovery & Ventilation MVHR is more common: Mechanical Ventilation with Heat Recovery, also called 'System-D Ventilation'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.153.253.58 (talk) 15:28, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

When also the latent heat of the humidity is recovered, the name changes to

energy recovery ventilator or ERV (heat and humidity recovery)

Merge into Energy recovery ventilation

This subject is a subset of Energy recovery ventilation. The same subjct is covered in that article as Plate heat exchanger, although not as general as is done here, in that it is a sensible only device. I propose merging this article into Energy recovery ventilation Fireproeng (talk) 17:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

In principle, the meaning of the words "energy recovery ventilation" would imply that this would be a subset. But that's not how the words are used in practice. ERV is used only to mean systems that transfer humidity. HRV is an alternative the ERV, not a type of ERV.Ccrrccrr (talk) 03:22, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

heat pump usage

The note on the use of heat pumps to prevent freezing seems strange to me. Doing it as described would, it seems to me, result in freezing of the cold side of the heatpump, and it would certainly result in a big temperature difference, making the heat pump inefficient. I'm not sure what configuration is used in practice. If anyone can provide a reference, great; otherwise I might delete the unsourced dubious stuff.Ccrrccrr (talk) 03:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

I was basing this on a slight rewrite of the existing material.

My thinking is as follows, can you point to where you disagree?

• If the inlet temperature falls below 0C, then condensation from the outflowing warm air on the other side of the heat exchanger may freeze, eventually blocking it.
• We need some way of warming the inlet.
• This can be done by:
  • dumping heat into the exhaust.

But, this will not really help, as the heat exchanger can be very efficient especially at low flows, and the (now) 40C air may condense as easily as 20C air, if the inlet temp is cold enough.

• Dumping heat into the inlet.

This leads to an inlet temp of (say) 3C, and the obvious question of where we draw that heat from - the 'cold' side.

• It could be drawn from the outside air, but that would require a seperate vent, and the temperature could be -20C, meaning that a moderate amount of work needs to be done to pump the heat (See Thermodynamic efficiency)
• It could be ground source - but that's silly unless it's an existing installation.
• Or, it could be the readily available outlet air.

In the latter case, this is quite efficient, as the temperature difference (for a house temp of 25C) won't exceed 20C or so.

In fact, because the temperature difference is the way it is, a pair of radiators and a pump (with lots of antifreeze) would mostly work (until the temp hit -10C or so).

I need to do some figures for the power of this heatpump, and perhaps some research. (considering manufacturing HRV for my house). Thanks.

--Speedevil (talk) 15:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

This is an interesting discussion, and I agree with your conclusion, but it sounds like original research so I'm afraid we should delete it from the article. Good luck with your installation. Ccrrccrr (talk) 21:52, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

This isn't my OR - I was merely copy-editing the para in question, which was very poorly structured, and answering the question posed. However, I think I've found some appropriate cites, which I'll add in over the next couple of days.

--Speedevil (talk) 00:03, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Excellent--what it says now is clear and makes sense technically. All we need is a citation to verify that it's not OR.Ccrrccrr (talk) 15:42, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

History?

When and where did HRV started being used? How and who invented it? Even a vague mention of the era and location would be welcome.

If anybody is knowledgeable of the answer but doesn't want to write on the main article, please write it here. Thanks -YCC 10:57, 9 November 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cy21 (talk • contribs)

Well, I now know it's been around for more than 11 years! But your questions still need answers, to set this material in a social and historical context. Also, how specific is the information to one country, region or culture? yoyo (talk) 06:10, 24 October 2021 (UTC)

Is File:Heat exchanger.jpg selfpromo?

File:Heat exchanger.jpg - Is it selfpromo or not? --EnJx (talk) 18:51, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

This page is a mess

I dont even know where to begin -- I think it just needs re-ordered by an expert. ---Loins5 (talk) 03:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Try please Chidgk1 (talk) 11:32, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

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Omits benefit entirely. Wrong on the basic physics.

HRV systems allow increased ventilation, for the purpose of reducing indoor air pollution, for the safety and health of occupants.

It is wrong to say that HRV can "reduce the heating and cooling demands". The HRV system uses energy, and does not change the temperature hardly at all. That's not what it's for. It's for ventilation.

The benefits are to human health. Stale air from CO2 is a major problem, and indoor air pollution from outgassing materials such as wood, glue, plastic, and cooking fumes threaten health. Health can be affected by aerosol bio-hazards such as viruses. Poor ventilation leads to "Sick Buildings" where disease spreads. HRV systems allow the building to reduce those risks WITHOUT requiring additional heating and cooling. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CharlesPrice1964 (talk • contribs) 23:58, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

@CharlesPrice1964: Can you find any WP:RS WP:V sources that state what you say? Then you can edit the article and use them. (talk) 13:37, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

PCMs

The section on phase change materials is referring to a particular form of thermal mass. As such, it is relevant to energy efficient buildings, but it does not do anything to facilitate ventilation without exchanging as much heat with the external atmosphere. That section should be removed to a more appropriate page. Cesiumfrog (talk) 06:21, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

It would be great if you would edit the article to improve it Chidgk1 (talk) 07:26, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to merge with Energy recovery ventilation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

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@Kilmer-san, Ccrrccrr, TractorCA, MrOllie, Kku, Jojalozzo, Pege.founder, Alk77, Pahazzard, Wikikari, Yeeno, Grumpelstilzchen, Jonnyringo100, Daniel.pandza, Cesiumfrog, CharlesPrice1964, and Mustardman24: I see above merging this article into Energy recovery ventilation was discussed in 2009, but by only 2 people. I am not an expert but I understand the difference is that ERV includes dehumidifying indoor air whereas HRV does not. I don't know what the title of the combined article should be but there seems to be a lot of overlap between the articles so I hope they would be better kept up to date if merged. Hope more than a couple of people will give their opinions.

If you support a merge what should the combined article be called? Chidgk1 (talk) 08:45, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

I am going to merge into here as there are more Google search results for this name - if you disagree feel free to start a new talk page section below to suggest a rename. Chidgk1 (talk) 09:36, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Do we need this section?

I moved the below here as it seems too general and the distillery is maybe off-topic as not air?

Greenhouse gases

CO₂, N₂O and CH₄ are common greenhouse gases and CO₂ is the largest contributor to climate change. Therefore, the greenhouse gas emissions are frequently denoted as CO₂ equivalent emissions. Total global greenhouse gas emissions increased 12.7% between 2000 and 2005. In 2005, around 8.3 Gt CO₂ was released by the building sector. Moreover, buildings are responsible for more than 30% of greenhouse gas emissions each year in most developed countries. According to another study, buildings in European Union countries cause about 50% of the CO₂ emissions in the atmosphere. It is possible to mitigate greenhouse gas emissions by 70% compared to the levels expected to be seen in 2030 if the proper measures are taken. The increase in greenhouse gas emissions due to the high demand for energy use concluded as global warming. In this regard, mitigating gas emissions in the atmosphere stands out as one of the most crucial problems of the world today that should be resolved. Heat recovery systems have a remarkable potential to contribute to decreasing greenhouse gas emissions by reducing the energy required to heat and cool buildings. The Scotch Whisky Association has carried out a project at Glenmorangie distillery to recover latent heat from new wash stills to heat other process waters. They have found that 175 t a year of CO₂ will be saved with a payback period of under one year. In another report, it is underlined that 10 MW of recovered heat can be utilized for saving €350,000 per year in emission costs. UK Climate Change Act of 2008 is targeting a 34% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020 compared with 1990 levels and an 80% reduction by 2050. They emphasize the notable potential and importance of heat recovery technologies to achieve this goal. Chidgk1 (talk) 17:31, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Should the article be simplified and if so how?

Seems like this was written at a time when people were experimenting with different setups. Is there now a mainstream setup? If so we could maybe shorten the others? Chidgk1 (talk) 16:47, 5 October 2023 (UTC)

Proposal to merge Exhaust air heat pump into here

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge. Chidgk1 (talk) 11:04, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

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@Österbotten, Qflib, Dolphin51, S.paulodonnell, and Hildre: That is a very short article which seems to be about much the same thing but in a particular country. Your thoughts? Chidgk1 (talk) 08:15, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.