Talk:Heaven & Hell (band)

New Articles + discography?

Lets put together a discography. We can split it into two. Head one 'as Black Sabbath' listing Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules, Live Evil, Dehumanizer, Black Sabbath: Live at Hammersmith Odeon and then one 'as Heaven and Hell' with the new single. Black Sabbath: The Dio Years I suppose would go down as Black Sabbath but the three new songs are credited to Heaven and Hell not the Sabs so I'm less sure about that one.

Then there's the Sabbath Stones compilation ;o

(The Elfoid 14:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC))

That information isn't required in this article. Any discography listed would simply be a Black Sabbath discography and already listed properly in the Black Sabbath articles. Tony Iommi is very clear that H&H is not Black Sabbath. And, to date, Heaven & Hell have released no albums using that band name so no discography is required. 156.34.142.110 15:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. There is no "Heaven and Hell" discography. Iommi is only using that name for this line-up for this tour because due to his contract with Ozzy he can't use the name Black Sabbath, even though he owns the name. BrianFG 21:05, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

1) H&H's made it abundantly clear they CHOSE not to call themselves Black Sabbath. Name rights originally were owned by the original Sabbath, contractually. This game them all the right to form a band named Black Sabbath. After the entire band left Iommi, they didn't think they'd ever be back together so he bought the rights off of them. Tony Iommi can make Black Sabbath whenever he wants with whoever he wants. I can't be bothered to explain why it IS called H&H for now since it isn't important in context.

2) Heaven and Hell are releasing The Devil Cried single, tracks 14 - 16 on Black Sabbath: The Dio Years (the 3 new songs they recorded together) and a new as-yet un-named new live album and accompanying DVD. So a small discography is required already - forthcoming releases are often listed on Wikipedia (and are infact on the Sabbath discography to).

3) I was not suggesting a discography for their work in Sabbath...I phrased it wrong. A discography for this GROUP OF MUSICIANS is what I meant. Rather than head it 'discography' list 'Heaven and Hell lineup performing as Black Sabbath's discography' or just 'appearing as Black Sabbath'. You know? While it is already listed on the Black Sabbath discography, I think it is worth noting on here so that all the Heaven and Hell information can be compiled in one place. Especially since the Black Sabbath: Live at Hammersmith Odeon release is going to be sucked into the Heaven and Hell thing so should be clearly defined in here as a Sabbath show.

(The Elfoid 19:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC))

The discography for this line-up performing as Black Sabbath would be pretty short: Mob Rules, Live Evil and the three new tracks. It really isn't necessary, as everyone knows this is Black Sabbath under another name, and Black Sabbath already has a page. BrianFG 12:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It'd be Heaven and Hell (we listed Bill Ward as a former Heaven and Hell member so the album he was on counts), Mob Rules, Live Evil, Dehumanizer (1992 reunion of the band), Live at Hammersmith Odeon (release of an old live recording, The Dio Years has taken all the PR so this one's not really been so heard of), Black Sabbath: The Dio Years (they're appearing as Sabbath on all of them except the new 3 which are them as Heaven and Hell) and the un-named new live album they just announced. So they performed as Sabbath on 3 albums, 2 live albums and a compilation.

And not everyone knows - I know someone who heard about Heaven and Hell when she saw it advertised and had no idea who Sabbath is. Saying 'everyone knows' is just silly. Plus not everyone knows WHAT they did with Sabbath and I think a list would be better than present incorporation into an article. Wikipedia is meant to be EASY to use, not just to have the info somewhere in it's vast caverns

(The Elfoid 15:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC))

“(they're appearing as Sabbath on all of them except the new 3 which are them as Heaven and Hell)”

Wrong! They appear as Sabbath on all of the tracks, including the 3 new ones. The Dio Years is an official Black Sabbath compilation; the new tracks are official Sabbath songs. Heaven and Hell is just the name they use for touring.--DarkPresence 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So in the end, the only album they will release under the Heaven and Hell name is the live album, which hasn't even been recorded yet. So until that comes out, there's no need for a discography. Your passion for this is admirable, Elfoid, but everything these musicians have appeared on is pretty well detailed everywhere. There's really no need to go through them all again. BrianFG 23:48, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

So; should we not follow what the official heaven and Hell site says? It does include a discography: The Rules of Hell, Live From Radio City Music Hall, The Dio Years, Dehumanizer, Live Evil, Mob Rules, Heaven and Hell. So this is official. Nunoni (talk) 15:52, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

It is officially marketing.... they would be financially foolish not to ride the other band name. But the 2 bands are now seperate so only Heaven and Hell albums belong in a Heaven and Hell article. Adding anything is just unreq'd duplication of content already available on Wikipedia in a more appropriate location. The Real Libs-speak politely 15:59, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

well, agreed! Even if the name Black Sabbath belongs to Iommi so he can say anything he likes about it, there is no need to re-write history. However, the Dio Years should be in the discography, because it has the 3 new songs that are NOT attributed to Black Sabbath in its Wikipedia main article - if they were, then the last studio work by Black Sabbath would be the Heaven and Hell line-up. Nunoni (talk) 16:53, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not agree with calling "The Devil Cried", "Shadow of the Wind", or "Ear in the Wall" Heaven and Hell, it was a Black Sabbath album. I realize that it is symantics but the The Dio Years is a Black Sabbath album. I do agree with not including Dio-era Sabbath albums on this page. J04n (talk) 18:36, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, but then if the last Black Sabbath studio offering is by the H&H line-up, the main Black Sabbath page should reflect that and call it "current line-up", instead of the dormant Ozzy/Iommi/Butler/Ward line-up that is currently cited. The Dio Years is a Black Sabbath album, but the three new songs were done by the "new band" called "Heaven and Hell". Sure it is confusing, but unless the Heaven and Hell line-up is officially recognised as the current Black Sabbath line-up as well (which it is not), then the three new songs are assigned to H&H; The Dio Years is then partly a Black Sabbath album (songs 1-13) and partly a H&H album (songs 14-16). I agree this is a mess, but it's a mess made by the musicians themselves. Nunoni (talk) 10:00, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Iommi has clearly stated that the lineup that was inducted into the H of F 'is' and always will be the 'only' Black Sabbath and that anything else he does from here on in will not be Black Sabbath unless it contains those 4 members. The Real Libs-speak politely 10:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The distinction that needs to be remembered here is POV vs. verifiable fact. Nunoni your POV is that the album The Dio Years is a Heaven and Hell album (which is certainly by no means an outrageous POV). The problem is that one can verify that it is a Back Sabbath album. The album cover says Black Sabbath, Billboard magazine lists it as Black Sabbath Billboard album chart history-Black Sabbath and the same magazine (which I consider the definitive reference for all things music) refers to Heaven and Hell as a separate band here. J04n (talk) 12:47, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The Dio Years has three songs assigned to Heaven and Hell; there is no mention in the booklet that those songs are Black Sabbath songs, on the contrary, you have Iommi's assertion quoted by speak politely. So, 3 Heaven and Hell songs were included in an album that says "Black Sabbath" on the cover... well, it The Dio Years is to be included in the H&H discography, at least a note saying this is needed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nunoni (talk • contribs) 15:30, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks like we are going to remain in disagreement. You stating that it doesn't say in the booklet that they are Black Sabbath songs, means nothing because it is a booklet about a Black Sabbath album, it is implied that everything in there is about Black Sabbath. On the other hand, if it did say that these were Heaven and Hell songs then you would have an argument. The burden of proof is on Heaven and Hell's claim to the songs not Black Sabbath's. A better link to Billboard than the one I used earlier is here where they list "The Devil Cried" as a Black Sabbath song. The Dio Years was recorded and released before the concept of Heaven and Hell existed, you can't apply things retroactively to Iommi's comment or else we will soon be saying that Forbidden is an album by Headless Cross. J04n (talk) 15:58, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

continuation of original line-up of Black Sabbath

I removed the sentence “Meanwhile Iommi and Butler looked forward to a continuation with the original line up of Black Sabbath”, because it is speculative: Iommi and Butler have not, at least since Heaven and Hell is recording and touring, expressed a desire to do new work with the original line-up of Black Sabbath. Such a continuation may very well happen in the future, but until any plans are announced, there is no reason to try to imagine what Iommi and Butler may or may not think, beyond what they say themselves. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nunoni (talk • contribs) 10:11, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Whoever keeps on reinstating "Meanwhile Iommi and Butler looked forward to a continuation with the original line up of Black Sabbath. " needs to come up with a reference; there is no such reference anywhere, so the sentence has to go. Nunoni (talk) 16:55, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree the statement should be referenced (or at the minimum defended on this talk page). I will mark it . I noticed that you removed it this morning and saw your rationale on this page, and was suprised that it was put back. J04n (talk) 18:39, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

And again, it is written "Because of the projected continuation of the band's original lineup (Iommi, Butler, Osbourne and Bill Ward)". There is no such projected continuation, what there is is a lawsuit. I removed the sentence. Whoever continues to promote wishful thinking needs to come up with references. (Nunoni (talk) 11:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC))

There is/was nothing speculative about Iommi's statement when he made it. And no offical announcement has ever been put forward by any Black Sabbath member to say otherwise. Speculative is thinking that there won't ever be a future project. In 1980 both camps said they would never work together again.. and that proved wrong. So until an official announcement of disbandment is made there cannot be any guessing as to what the future will hold for them. Peter Fleet (talk) 17:30, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

"Projected" means there is a project. Where is this project, which record, which tour, which what, relating to the Black Sabbath line-up? No one quesitons what "Black Sabbath line-up" means, there's only one right now. What is questioned is this "Projected continuation". Iommi's statements say nothing about this. Furthermore, the only statements as to why the band has called themselves Heaven and Hell, mentioned "to avoid confusion with the original line-up". There has been no statement regarding a "project" with the original line-up. This topic is on Heaven and Hell, not on Black Sabbath, so if you wish to discuss projects for Black Sabbath do it in the Black Sabbath topic. Here, either come up with a reference to show that the name was chosen to be Heaven and Hell because because of any Black Sabbath project, or stop trolling. (193.136.74.102 (Nunoni (talk) 10:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)) 10:14, 30 July 2009 (UTC))

Nunoni, I agree with most of what you are saying except the bit about "to avoid confusion with the original line-up", there is a quote somewhere from Tony that I will find and provide that basically said, and I'm paraphrasing, "we don't want the fans to come expecting to here Iron Man". The reason really was to avoid the confusion. However, I do agree that it is appropriate to drop "projected continuation" until and unless a future tour or album is announced. J04n(talk page) 20:17, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

This isn't the ref I was looking for but it does have Tony saying that he did it so as not to confuse the fans. J04n(talk page) 00:32, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

As Black Sabbath

I'm putting in "As Black Sabbath" in the Dicography section, because in their official H&H site they do have these albums as black Sabbath. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.21.148.126 (talk) 18:11, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I am removing the album Heaven and Hell from this "as Black Sabbath", given that Bill Ward is not involved in Heaven & Hell. You can't just discard the drums player as irrelevant, particularly when Ward is part of the "in hiatus" Ozzy-led Sabb, and Appice is an official member of Heaven and Hell with at least in principle equal status. Nunoni (talk) 09:50, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

I would take Nunoni's point one step further and suggest removing all of the Black Sabbath discography. Even though the players are the same they are two different bands. The previous two threads on this page are basically the same discussion. Since the common theme in all three discussions is that Nunoni disagree, I will wait for other editors to comment before I edit anything. J04n(talk page) 10:09, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

"as Black Sabbath" is not the same as "Black Sabbath". These guys have records that they recorded "as Black Sabbath". In any case, I have no problem with the removal of this "as Black Sabbath" discography, because the page points to the proper place where Black Sabbath discography is referenced, which is quite obviously the Black Sabbath page. No need to repeat information here, particularly given that these are different bands with different names, no matter Iommi's statement "it really is Black Sabbath however we call it", what matters is what is in the album covers. Which begs the question, that Black Sabbath: The Dio Years is an official Sabb record, and it has 3 songs written by these four guys while the Ozzy-led Sabb was at the same time the official Black Sabbath, which is some sort of contradiction, but it's the band's fault for not being clear. The Black Sabbath page here goes around the problem with some very elegant wording that reflects truth while not taking a stance on this problem, which is for the best I think. Nunoni (talk) 11:32, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

I just wanted to say the reason I put in "As Black Sabbath" with the album Heaven and Hell, is because they named themselves base on that album (I'm not discarding the drummer) but in their own official site they sell respectively these albums; Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules, Live Evil, Dehumanizer, The Dio Years, Live from Radio City Music Hall, The Rules of Hell (Box Set), and The Devil You Know. I would also like to note that in their live shows they play songs only from these studio albums including Heaven and Hell.With that being said I'm not going to ad "As Black Sabbath" because I kind of agree with both of you. Since The Devil you know is the only album cover with the band's name Heaven and Hell. And by the way I don't think the "drums player" is irrelevant.

Merge with Black Sabbath

Please see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Black_Sabbath#Heaven_.26_Hell_is_Black_Sabbath —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.148.187 (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

This discussion has been revived here. Charles Essie (talk) 16:16, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

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