Talk:Heinz Guderian/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) 03:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll get to this shortly--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Looking forward to the review. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:41, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

• No DABs, external links OK
• Images appropriately licensed
• He was Hitler's personal advisor on the Eastern Front "for" not "on"
• Link née, all ranks, battalion, infantry, regiment, chief-of-staff, XVI Motorized Corps
• What was his rank upon entering the army?
  • Not answered.
    • The source does not specify. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• "the" 4th Army
  • Why on Earth did you delete the bit about him being a SigInt guy for the 4th Army?
    • Okay, restored. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Explain what II Battalion means or translate that to Second
  • And why delete the name of the regiment he was assigned to?
    • Addressed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Provide a first name for Hobart
• The Tank Warfare This appears to be a bad translation. What's the actual German title?
  • Why are you deleting relevant details? Somebody might want to hunt that book down.
    • The source does not provide the original German name; since there was a concern about a bad translation, I removed the title. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:51, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

In case it helps: Der Kampfwagenkrieg. The US Army War College translation is titled Mechanized warfare. See here. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:17, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

• of staff who were unsympathetic staff is awkward. Perhaps "of its leaders who..."?
• Down to Invasion of Poland, more later.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:04, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

I've addressed the above points. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:08, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

• Link Brest-Litovsk on first use, which, BTW, is hyphenated
  • Fixed. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• he ordered the advance on Gross-Klonia at night and through fog, leading to what he described as "serious casualties" There's a confusion of pronouns in this half-sentence
  • I think you mean that there are too many of "he"; I replaced one with "Guderian". --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
    • Better, but who's the second "he"? Hart or Guderian?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
      • Still unanswered.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
        • I reworded it so it's clearer that the last "he" is Guderian. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• Despite the attention focused on mechanised warfare, the majority of German forces marched into Poland on foot and transported their supplies by horse-drawn vehicles; only 14 of the 54 divisions involved were mechanized This should be paired with the sentence about the amount of AFVs that Guderian controlled in the campaign. It's too short to stand on its own and breaks the flow of this section.
  • Removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• The invasion of Poland was ferocious. The German military killed thousands of civilians awkward and actually irrelevant as that is common in war. Unless you can tie these civilian deaths to orders from Guderian, this has to go.
  • Removed. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• He then complained until he was given seven mechanized divisions with which to accomplish the task. Why was he complaining?
  • Added "lack of resources". --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• Why are you citing almost every sentence in the first para of the Invasion of France section when they're mostly identical?
  • Reduced. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• What happened when Hitler issued his stop order before his troops reached Dunkirk? More specifically, how did Guderian react?
  • Expanded. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• And give a date for when that happened. Readers will be totally clueless that it took a subsequent redeployment and offensive (Fall Rot) to finish off the French.
  • Provided. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• The original invasion plan Fall Gelb (Case Yellow) had fallen into French hands by chance through the Mechelen incident. The incident contributed to the French executing the Dyle Plan, moving most of their forces north to Belgium and leaving the Ardennes lightly defended. However, the Germans subsequently changed their plan. This should be moved to the beginning of the 1st para to explain the evolution of the German attack planning because the way its written right now, the reader has no clue that Manstein wasn't the architect of the original Fall Gelb plan.
  • I think this makes sense here as one of the reasons for France's rapid defeat and explains how the German army became over-confident for Barbarossa. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
    • As currently structured, the reader has no idea why the Manstein Plan shifted forces south to attack through the Ardennes. The original invasion plan Fall Gelb (Case Yellow) had fallen into French hands by chance through the Mechelen incident. This sentence, reinforced by the date of the incident and a brief explanation, should open the section on the Battle of France, then go into all the planning changes and Guderian's advocacy. Split the paragraph when combat starts. The Battle of Arras stuff and the drive on Dunkirk is good, but the reader still has no idea that Guderian's forces redeployed for Fall Rot, which article you should read to understand what was involved, and then attacked with the goal of advancing to the Swiss border. Then comes the overconfidence para with a quick reference to the Mechelen Incident.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Still unaddressed.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
    • Sorry I missed that. I removed the middle part of this paragraph (The original invasion plan...), so it now goes from the defeat of France to generals getting over-confident. I don't think there's a need to get into the invasion plans at this point, since the material is covered at the top of the section. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• Hitler and his generals became over-confident after their historic victory,[47] and came to believe they could defeat the Soviet Union, a country with significantly more industrial capacity, manpower and resources. This should be tied into the reasons for the Allied defeat and how the Germans misunderstood the lessons from that victory.
  • Combined with previous para for better flow. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• This is enough for you to chew on for the nonce.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 23:52, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Addressed. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:25, 15 September 2019 (UTC)
• took control of the 2nd Panzer Group He didn't take control of anything. He was assigned/appointed command of the group. And link 2nd Panzer Group through 2nd Panzer Army
  • Revised and linked. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Soviet the 16th Delete "the"
  • Removed. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• I'm not sure that I trust Seaton about the decision making in turning south. What does Stahel's book on the Battle of Kiev say about it? Or Vol IV of Germany and the Second World War? And Vol. 2 of Glantz's book on the Battle of Smolensk has some useful insights and conclusions about the decision-making.
  • I've replaced Seaton with Muller 2015 & Stahel 2012. The gist of Seaton's narrative was about right. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 2 October 2019 (UTC)
• the lightning strike forces awkward
  • Reworded. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• What force is Kluge commanding? And give his rank and first name with a link
  • Added. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Give Lemelson's rank and the force that he commanded.
  • Added that he commanded a corps within Guderian's panzer group. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:35, 25 September 2019 (UTC)
• Nothing about his relief?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:09, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Added. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:17, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

@Sturmvogel 66: I've addressed the remaining issues and would be ready for more comments. Thank you for your patience. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:17, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• What did Guderian do between his relief and his appointment in '43?
  • I added the bit about Guderian's lobbying in between the two postings. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• 1943 Germany's military failures awkward
  • Reworded. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• When did he become Acting Chief of Staff?
  • 20 July 1944; I made it clearer. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• Aside from the film, what did he do after dealing with the plotters? OKH had responsibility for the Eastern Front, so how did he respond to the various Soviet offensives?
  • Expanded on that. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
• Are there no assessments of his skill as a commander or staff officer? By either his opponents or historians?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 19:01, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
  • This is covered in the "Panzer Leader myth" section. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

@Sturmvogel 66: I've completed the revisions. --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:54, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Continued review

• The Battle of France section reads much better, although Guderian was then ordered to advance to the Swiss border. needs a link to Fall Rot
  • Added. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• When did he leave the Historical Division?
  • The source does not specify. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• it has been researched what does this mean?
  • Reworded. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• The estate covered an area of 2,000 acres (810 ha) and it was located at Deipenhof (now Głębokie, Poland) in the Warthegau area of occupied Poland. The occupants had been evicted.[97] The property was worth 1.24 million Reichsmarks. Awkward, combine some of these.
  • Reworded. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• In the anime series Girls und Panzer, Yukari Akiyama is nicknamed Guderian due to her fondness for tanks. This needs a cite.
  • Removed. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• Be consistent about putting his books in bibliographic formats or not.
  • The title appears in prose; I think it's fine as is. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
    • Not my point. Some include ISBNs and a summary; other do not. Be consistent.
      • Is consistency in this matter a GA requirement? K.e.coffman (talk) 01:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
        • No, but it is at higher levels.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:43, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
          • Thanks for the info; I will keep this in mind. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:57, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• The first edition of the Hargreaves book is in English: Blitzkrieg Unleashed: The German Invasion of Poland, 1939
  • Added. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• Put the subtitle of the Hart book in title case
  • Fixed. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• His Knight's Cross needs to be cited somewhere other than the infobox.
  • Added. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
    • And his Oakleaves?
      • The source does not mention the Oakleaves. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:00, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
        • I know, that was a pretty weak cite to begin with. I'd suggest using Thomas or Wegman.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 02:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
          • Added. --K.e.coffman (talk) 02:48, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
• Move whatever books you haven't referenced into further reading.
  • Removed. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:25, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 21:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)