Talk:Heinz Pagels

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His dream

Copied from User talk:Ashmoo#Heinz Pagels.  – Corinne (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Hello, Ashmoo – I'm a little puzzled by your addition of the "Fact" template and your edit summary. Both the accident and his account of his dream are described in the July 26, 1988, New York Times article that is linked in the External Links section of this article, and something of a connection is made between them, and the similarity between his manner of death – a fall while mountain climbing – and the dream is fairly obvious. Is that not sufficient to justify the use of the word "similar" in this sentence in the Heinz Pagels#Biography section? --

• Eerily, the accident is disturbingly similar to the imagined fatal fall he described at the end of his first book[citation needed], where he wrote: [block quote]

Is your objection to the adverb "eerily"? I believe this is supported by the sentence in the article in Edge.org, also linked in the External Links section, that introduces an extended quote from Pagels' book in which he describes the dream:

• I often think about Heinz. And I always come back to the beautiful and eerie passage he wrote to conclude The Cosmic Code:

You will see that this sentence uses the word "eerie". I think this word suggests further that the similarity between the dream and he actual fall was disturbing to Pagels' friend, who wrote this tribute, and who was probably John Brockman, Editor and Publisher of Edge. I believe the sentence in the article that begins "Eerily,..." is a paraphrase of this source.

If I have persuaded you, perhaps you would consider removing the "Fact" template.  – Corinne (talk) 02:31, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Hi Corinne, thanks for taking the time to contact me. Indeed, my problem with the text as-is is the connection between that article and his death. It seems like WP:OR to me. The Edge article connects the passage to Heinz himself, and doesn't clearly state it is about his death. And is their any evidence that Heinz's accident was anyway similar to the passage described? Did gravel give way? Did he grab for a shrub? If not, it is just that a climber had a dream about falling and later the climber fell to his death. Specifically regarding the word 'eerily', in the Edge article the word 'eery' seem to be being used to described the cosmic nature of the text, not any relationship to the manner of Heinz's death. I hope I am being clear. Ashmoo (talk) 10:29, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your courteous reply. I wonder if you could clarify your statement just above where you write:

Indeed, my problem with the text as-is is the connection between that article and his death.

You write "that article". I presume you mean the Edge article because that is the last one I was referring to, but I mentioned two articles. The New York Times article contains the following sentences:

• Dr. Pagels, a tall, slender man, stepped on a rock that proved unsteady and lost his balance. He fell and slid down a steep slope.

We're talking about the similarity between the dream and the actual accident, so the details do not have to be identical, and the similarity was implied in the New York Times article by virtue of its being mentioned at all, and explicitly pointed out in the Edge article. If you consider the implied connection in the New York Times article to be original research, then ignore it; the similarity is pointed out in the Edge article, and one source should be sufficient.  – Corinne (talk) 15:12, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

The thing is, neither source notes the similarity between the dream and his death, it is only ever implied. My understanding of WP:V is that we cannot use sources to support things we think they imply, the source must clearly assert it. The Edge article seems even less to make the connection, I believe, between the dream and his accident. If you read the text about the dream, Heinz is using it as a metaphor for the search for knowledge and the Edge article links the dream to his life and worldview, but not to the circumstances of his death. Maybe it is because I am also a climber, but the dream and the real accident do not seem 'eerily' or 'disturbingly' similar. In the dream a handhold gives way, he tries to grab a bush, slides on gravel and falls into an abyss, in real life a rock moved under him and he fell down a steep slope (gravel cannot rest on a steep slope) and landed in a gorge. The only similarity, is that he once had a dream of falling and he fell to his death. Ashmoo (talk) 07:20, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying. You don't think "eerie" to "eerily" is an appropriate paraphrase?  – Corinne (talk) 17:50, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, I'm mostly contesting that the relationship between his dream and his death is remarkable. Neither source states this according to my reading of it. The dream seems to be more about making a connection between his climbing and his love of knowledge. Ashmoo (talk) 12:02, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

I understand. What do you think about copying this exchange to the talk page of the article?  – Corinne (talk) 15:49, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Ashmoo (talk) 07:10, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

Things got a bit quiet, so I went and made a change to something I feel is better reflected by the sources. Ashmoo (talk) 12:00, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

I fixed a few things in the sentence, but I think "many writers" is too vague, and "many writers wrote about" doesn't really say much.  – Corinne (talk) 16:31, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

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Junior?

At the end of #Biography, the memorial award at Pagel's highschool (I assume) is mentioned, styled "The HRP Jr. Physics Memorial Award." This was indicate that he was named after his father or other relative, exactly. I'm wondering if we should add the "Jr." to his birth name? I'm not that familiar with the WP MOS that I could easily look up such a practice. Does anyone know? Ragity (talk) 18:49, 18 February 2020 (UTC)