Talk:Helen Hays

Degree or no degree?

There seems to be a conflict in this article, stating Hays received a degree in 1953, but then in 1956 she appears not to have a degree. I cannot clarify anything from this cited reference, which is itself confusing. But this reference indicates she's an alumna from 1953.

This additional reference suggests she subesequently did a master's degree at Cornell. And this one might also be of interest to the article editors. Nick Moyes (talk) 22:25, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Nick Moyes, thanks! Might I impose to ask you clarify which part of the article seems to be in a conflict? I seem to be missing it: as I read it, right now the entry says that she received a bachelor's degree in biology in 1953 i.e. an undergraduate degree, and then pursued graduate studies, but both Cornell and Wellesley refused to credit her with a master's degree i.e. a graduate degree, and thus Without a graduate degree, Hays began her career in 1956 in low-level positions. That all seems consistent to me. It does seem to conflict with the claim she did get a master's, mentioned in this source you point to, but as far as RS goes, it seems to me the University of Connecticut write-up for her honorary doctorate is probably the more reliable source on the point, no? But maybe I am missing something. (Also I suppose they could all be true--perhaps Cornell granted the master's only later, once she was established in the field. But I'm speculating now, so I'll look to see if I can't get another source confirming.) Meanwhile thank you for the Wrack Lines reference, I look forward to reading. Innisfree987 (talk) 23:53, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: It's possible I'm suffering from transatlantic misinterpretation. Here in the UK, we would regard anyone doing "graduate studies" as actually being an undergraduate who is working towards their degree. After they have graduated (i.e. been awarded their BA or BSc), they can then go on to do post-graduate studies (MSc/PhD/MPhil/PGCE, etc). The article makes perfect sense if I were to substitute 'post-graduate' for 'graduate'. eg. Without a post-graduate degree, Hays began her career.... But if things are done or worded differently in America then I guess that should take priority, though I do find it currently very confusingly-worded. And I say that as someone who has just sent their daughter off a few months ago to start their first year as an undergraduate, to get a degree in 3 years time. Whether she'll then aim for a post-graduate degree, who knows? Having just found the badly-named page (to my eye, anyway) entitled Undergraduate degree, I note that it is colloquial term (Americanism perhaps?), with the second sentence stating It is also an oxymoron, since one cannot hold a degree as an undergraduate. I'm not trying to be pedantic or pick a fight - as a retired-museum biologist myself, my eye fell on the DYK, and so thought I'd take a look. Nice work. I'll leave it to you to sort out! RegardsNick Moyes (talk) 00:22, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@Nick Moyes: Oh, yes you've put your finger on it! Frankly the UK version makes more sense linguistically (once you have the degree, you are already a graduate!), but yes in context, "post-graduate" is rarely to never used (the closest common term would be a "post-doc" which unfortunately takes us even farther from the facts of the situation), and her studies beyond the bachelor's would be referred to as graduate work. But I've revised the most troublesome sentence to say "advanced degree"--may I ask you, will that be more legible to the British English reader? Thank you for flagging that it wouldn't scan for a significant portion of our readers! Innisfree987 (talk) 01:12, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@Innisfree987: Were you to have said "higher degree" I'd be a happy bunny. I think "advanced degree" doesn't sound right to my ear, but I can't speak for an American audience. If push came to shove, I could live with it, but I would still wonder what was meant by that phrase. Hope this helps. Nick Moyes (talk) 01:17, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Ah I see, and thank you for explaining. Let me sleep on it and see if I can't think of some other way--higher degree would unfortunately introduce on the US side just the same confusion you had in the first place, because US "higher education" includes (shall we just REALLY confuse things here!) anything the French system would call post-bac. Seems like the terms have really come to have opposite meanings in UK and US English! Hm. Well maybe something will come to me... Innisfree987 (talk) 02:13, 6 December 2018 (UTC)