Talk:Helen Smith (nurse)

UK citizenship

With this edit, I reverted an editor who changed "UK citizens" to "British citizens" with the edit summary of "UK citizens" is incorrect. My reverting edit summary was Reverting good faith edits; in 1979 it was correct: "The British Nationality Act 1948 was an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom that created the status of "Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" (CUKC) as the national citizenship of the United Kingdom and its colonies.

There has been a lengthy discussion on my talk page about this. Twice, I asked the editor to open a discussion here, but the editor ignored those requests & sought to continue to engage me on my talk page. I am therefore opening the discussion here.

I wrote this:

In the entire time that Helen Smith (nurse) lived (3 January 1956 – 20 May 1979), the British Nationality Act 1948 applied to her. The British Nationality Act 1948 was in force until the British Nationality Act 1981 took effect, two years after Smith's death. According to the British Nationality Act 1948 article, that act created the status of "Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" (CUKC) as the national citizenship of the United Kingdom and its colonies.

I noted that this language is in the lead of that article. I equate UK citizenship with "Citizenship of the United Kingdom".

The other editor sought to sway me by force of argument, stating "Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" is not the same as "UK citizen". It is equivalent to "British subject" or "British citizenship". This editor has offered no other article links or citations to prove this. I think that unless this editor can offer specific links or citations to prove the point, than the editor is engaged in original research.

I am hoping to hear from those who are familiar with British subjects, Commonwealth citizenship, the British nationality law (to which both UK citizenship & British citizenship redirect), & the British Nationality Act 1948. I am hoping that the our collective intelligence will resolve this. Peaceray (talk) 20:28, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

GPinkerton (talk · contribs) made 100+ similar changes some excellent (vaccine isn't restricted to citizens), and some awful (the organisation was previously named UK Citizens Online Democracy). This needs a wider forum than just this one change. Cabayi (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Cabayi, why awful? If a lobby group calls itself US Citizens Online Democracy it doesn't preclude the use of the ordinary term "American citizens" on a putative article on that page I shouldn't think. GPinkerton (talk) 22:33, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Because Britain/British and UK aren't 100% synonymous (File:British Isles Euler diagram 15.svg) & the article contained a strong pointer that UK was intended. Cabayi (talk) 22:49, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Cabayi, in normal language Britain and UK are 99% synonymous and 100% synonymous in the case of referring to the UK. Only when Britain is used as an incorrect short form for Great Britain is is not a synonym for "UK" (or one its historical forebears). The meaning of "island" is rare vs the meaning of "sovereign state" for "Britain"; likewise "British" is almost always synonymous with "British citizen" (i.e. "citizen of the UK"). GPinkerton (talk) 23:05, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Peaceray, I am closely familiar with all these concepts. Nothing you have adduced implies there is any official use of the term "UK citizen", which unlike the term "British" never appears in the "British Nationality Act". "Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies" is a particular legal classification of British nationality, the type of nationality British citizens have. The website of the National Archives states The British Nationality Act of 1948 conferred the status of British citizen on all Commonwealth subjects and recognised their right to work and settle in the UK and to bring their families with them. (emphasis added) and further that The British Nationality Act of 1981 abolished the 1948 definition of British citizenship and replaced it with three categories: British citizenship, citizenship of British dependent territories, and British overseas citizenship. Of these, only British citizenship provides the right to live in the UK.. So as can be expected, British people are called British citizens when they have British citizenship (or nationality, or subject status, as the case may be). In any and all cases, the subject of this article is undoubtedly a British citizen and so are the other Britons referred to. NB WP:CIRCULAR; Wikipedia should not be used to make points about the content of Wikipedia. No evidence has been provided to show that "UK citizen" has any kind of validity, let alone priority over the basic English language term for such people. GPinkerton (talk) 22:44, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

It may shed light that this user appears to be waging a Wikipedia-wide campaign against the phrase "UK citizens", apparently on the basis that it sounds weird and unnatural and because it's not really correct. I would contest that its widespread currency, including by governement and reliable publications would counter this assertion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:53, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

Mutt Lunker, you have contested it, but you have not supported your arguments with anything that suggests "UK citizens" is to be preferred to the usual English name for such people. GPinkerton (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Is there any actual reason to insist on "UK citizens"? GPinkerton (talk) 01:14, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

That is not a position I have advanced. I address your false contention that the term is incorrect. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:51, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, there is a reason to insist on "UK citizens"! It is WP:EDITCONSENSUS. You do not have a right to push your point of view of what is incorrect.

Furthermore, your claim that "UK citizen" is incorrect is itself wrong! A Google search across gov.uk reveals a plethora of pages were the United Kingdom itself uses the term.

• "UK citizen" site:gov.uk - Google Search — About 7,790 results

Cabayi is right. GPinkerton's edits to change a valid title as incorrect need to be discussed in a larger forum. Do not try to address it further here. Discuss at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom#Indiscriminate changes of "UK citizen" to "British citizen" Peaceray (talk) 05:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom § Indiscriminate changes of "UK citizen" to "British citizen"

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject United Kingdom § Indiscriminate changes of "UK citizen" to "British citizen". Peaceray (talk) 05:46, 21 December 2020 (UTC)