Talk:Hell in Christianity/Archive 2

Catechism Published by a Dead Pope?

Chapter "Roman Catholicism", subchapter "A place?" says:

The Catechism published by Pope Pius X in 2008 defined hell by using the word "state" alone: "Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments."

Can't be. Pius X had died long before. Either the year is wrong, or it's been published by the present day pope. The reference doesn't make it any clearer. -- Stiip (talk) 10:29, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Confusion with another Pope Pius? Pope Pius X died in 1914. Esoglou (talk) 13:15, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

Jewish Background - Dubious Tag

I added a dubious tag to the sourcing of 2 Edras. The book seems to be highly in question as non-authentic, and its time of writing is only speculated at based on tone. Sources should show what Jews of the period actually thought about Gehenna, not what Christian influenced Jews took it to mean centuries later. I removed a reference to another book from the 5th century, which was being used as a reference to the belief of Jews in the time of Jesus. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 09:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks pretty good now. On another note: RSV isn't the only Bible that transliterates 'Gehenna', User:In ictu oculi, and even if it was, that would still make the statement 'all Bibles translate Gehenna as "hell"' completely false. Also, you shouldn't change a dubious tag that has a live discussion without adding to the discussion. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 05:57, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, my bad I didn't check Talk page - yes you should but when I see statements without sources on this kind of page/topic I tend to assume there won't be Talk unless the edit says "see Talk", which usually they don't and there aren't, but good for you, for once there was.

Thanks for now adding sources. It's interesting that J. B. Phillips' NT transliterates Gehenna. But seeing as it's not a Bible, only a NT one might want to adjust the wording? You shouldn't have deleted Assumption of Moses, the Wikipedia article (and Charlesworth OTP) dates it as 1stC, likewise 2 Esdras - so you should remove the dubious tag unless theres a specific WP:RS to add. I don't actually disagree with you, but that's POV, and Wikipedia has to go with sources and what's in the linked Wikipedia article - unless the source/content there also needs fixing. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:10, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

When I looked at the Assumption of Moses article, it seemed to suggest it was written c. 5th century AD. Perhaps I should look more closely, though. The other Bible I linked for a different translation of Gehenna was, I think, the Young translation? Can't really remember, but it translates Gehenna as "destruction". That's a pretty interesting read. Also, NWT transliterates 'Gehenna' in all occurrences, but the online version of that Bible can't be linked by verse as far as I know. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 02:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, found a verse link for NWT Mt. 5:22. Do you know how to add footnotes to references? I'm not absolutely sure that sentence is terribly needed, as gehenna translated as 'hell' is established in the header. Also, I would like us to look into the available material on gehenna as a place for burning bodies, and also WP standards concerning secondary accounts. We often quote from historians such as Josephus when discussing matters that happened centuries before his time, so I don't see why information in Gehenna as a place to burn the criminal dead should be excluded on those grounds. Sadly, I have little time personal time for extended research. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 02:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Existence of Christian Hell.

There are sources! The Lord forgives you for your sin. Therefore, a thing such as a fiery Hell could not exist in Jewish of Christian faiths. I am Christian, however, I personally consider myself neither religion. I therefore request deletion for this page.

72.230.135.196 (talk) 20:55, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

We also have sources that say Christian belief in a place of eternal torment is widespread and pervasive. The difference between you and us is that you have made a random talk page comment without a single link, and we have constructed many articles with properly cited primary and secondary sources to back up our point. If you really want to nominate this article for deletion, you need to follow a process. Please read WP:AFD, and good luck. Elizium23 (talk) 21:05, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

history of hell in the Roman Catholic church

All of the material about hell in the Roman Catholic church in this article looks at it in recent times. Surely it would be interesting to know how the RC church saw this from the earliest times right through to the present john f82.132.139.185 (talk) 11:38, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Category Cosmology and Eschatology

Please note that the categorization goes as follows, from immediate category to great-grandparent: Afterlife in Christianity -> Christian eschatology -> Christian cosmology

This article has been classified both in Afterlife in Christianity and in Christian eschatology and in Christian cosmology.

Let's please not have all articles that are in (grand)child categories of Christian cosmology also classified in Christian cosmology directly, because if we would do that the amount of articles in Christian cosmology would become too overwhelming and nobody would benefit from that. Similarly for parent eschatology. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:38, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

In this case observation of water-falling of categories is fine, but where's the guideline about categories that you're citing from for removing them? In ictu oculi (talk) 05:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I like the term 'water-falling', thanks! The guideline is here: Wikipedia:Categorization#Category tree organization Marcocapelle (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm looking forward to any further comments. Otherwise I'll presume that you're okay with the given motivation to delete. Marcocapelle (talk) 13:14, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

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A place?

Christian_views_on_Hell#Place The article said, "The Catholic Church has not defined whether hell can be considered a place: "The Church has decided nothing on this subject." I adjusted this earlier and recently it was reverted back to this misleading application taken out of context. However this appears very misleading-Why? 1) the subheading is "Name and PLACE of Hell" The paragraph this quote is in starts off by saying, "Where is hell?"-Thus the info in this section and paragraph is about the LOCATION of hell. Thus the quote in context says this, "Hence theologians generally accept the opinion that hell is really within the earth. The Church has decided nothing on this subject; hence we may say hell is a definite place; but where it is, we do not know." What can we conclude for the above? The the entire gist of this is about the LOCATION of hell-that is what the church has "decided nothing on" not the existence, as the article was saying before I adjusted it. Yes is good to differentiate between church and theologians but this quote is clearly about the location of hell. Thus I will correct it once again. Johanneum (talk) 16:55, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

You are right in saying that Hontheim did not, as the article wrongly stated, say that the Church has decided nothing on whether hell can be considered a place. What Hontheim said is that the Church has decided nothing on whether "hell is really within the earth". So the article did not report Hontheim accurately. Esoglou (talk) 20:50, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks it looks a lot better! Just wondering if the official position as express in Catechism should be added, let the reader decide then if literal or not: "Those are punished in hell who die in mortal sin; they are deprived of the vision of God and suffer dreadful torments, especially that of fire, for all eternity...The souls in hell are beyond all help...The souls in hell do not have supernatural faith. They believe, however, the truths revealed by Almighty God, not with divine faith, but because they cannot escape the evidence of God's authority...The punishment of hell is eternal." A Catechism of Christian Doctrine, Revised Edition of the Baltimore Catechism, St. Anthony Guild Press, New Jersey (1949), pp144, 145 Johanneum (talk) 13:57, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think this quotation says anything about whether hell is best thought of as a place or as a state in which a person could find himself or herself. Perhaps it could be used elsewhere in the article, but a local, albeit national, catechism such as the Baltimore Catechism is less appropriate for an international ambience like Wikipedia than a catechism for the whole Church, such as the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Esoglou (talk) 14:14, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The idea that Hell is a huge system of caverns located somewhere below the upper crust of the Earth, and where souls are tormented in eternal flames, tortured by devils, vultures and snakes etc ceased being viable with the advent of modern geology and physics. You won't find too many theologians this side of 1900 who have seriously tried to reconcile those "realistic Hell" notions with the findings of modern science. 83.251.170.27 (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

The material in this section is good. But I want to shift it around, because a section giving the Catholic view should start with the most-current and highest-authority sources in the Catholic system (i.e. Pope, Catechism, Doctors). However, the article does need material that historically Catholics certainly have spoken of Hell using the language of physical location. 58.173.223.5 (talk) 01:21, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Catholic. How Full is Hell?

I have added a section to the Catholic section, How Full is Hell? I did not want to call it "who goes to hell" because that would skew it too far into some positive discussion on salvation, but I can see that is kinda what it is.

To justify the section: an article on the Catholic conception of Hell needs to have material that links to redemption, purgatory, limbo of children, and to relevant papal encyclicals or statements, which is what I have tried to provide. Plus there are many other Wikipedia articles on related topics that need some anchor material to point to them.

I justify the paragraph on Balthasar because 1) it follows from the limbo material and is relevant to the topic, 2) his views are raised earlier in the article , and 3) it is in the news (at least, Pope Francis' claimed statements that no-one would go to hell, which surely are some garbled version of Francis' version of Balthasar.) ... Actually, maybe someone should add a link to that news story...

Please ignore this if it goes beyond what Wikipedia editing should relate to:- On the material on unbaptised dead childred: in the back of my mind is a picture of some distressed parent of a dead child, arriving at the Wikipedia page hoping for some succour. A page that merely concentrates on fire and brimstone is not what they need, and would cause that kind of reader (who we can fully expect) to be unnecessarily distressed, and it would misrepresent the Catholic position. So I think the material is appropriate and relevant. Rick Jelliffe (talk) 06:00, 1 April 2018 (UTC)