Talk:Helms Athletic Foundation

Questioning data for this entity before its founding in 1936

If the Foundation started in 1936 why are records from 1901 being included? In the John Wooden thread there is a statement that he won the Helms Foundation basketball championship with his team in 1932. Isn't it more accurate to say these schools were NAMED later?

Was there a predecessor or predecessor name for Helms dating back to 1932? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.214.92.242 (talk) 00:16, 29 November 2013 (UTC)

List of all Helms basketball champions from 1901 to 1938?

Can anyone make a list of all the basketball champions named by the Helms Athletic Foundation from 1901 to 1938 (the years before the NCAA tournament). I searched all over the internet and could not find a list. If you could just point me to a source I will go ahead and do all the work, if you would prefer it that way. Thanks. Seancp 16:43, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Got this from a blog, so it needs to be properly sourced. Don't ask me what the asterisks mean: Hoof Hearted 21:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This looks like the reliable source of the list, and confirms what the blog said. I'll go ahead and add it. Hoof Hearted 13:43, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Retroactive football additions between 1971–1976

The personal website source currently used to source the Football table states at the bottom:

In my files I have a United Savings-Helms list of national champions starting with 1900 and ending with 1970.  In this list, Alabama alone is listed as national champion in 1926, Army alone in 1946, Notre Dame alone in 1947, and UCLA alone in 1954.  Also in my files I have a Citizens Savings Athletic Foundation (formerly Helms Athletic Foundation) list of national champions starting with 1883 and ending with 1976.  In this list, Stanford is listed as co-national champion in 1926, Notre Dame in 1946, Michigan in 1947, and Ohio State in 1954.  Sometime between 1971 and 1976 extra national champions were added retroactively.  In the 1900-1970 list, both Michigan State and Notre Dame are listed as co-national champions in 1966, so this dual national championship selection is not retroactive.

This should be investigated and WP:R WP:V sources added to substantiate the claim.

PK-WIKI (talk) 20:05, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

In January 1967 the Associated Press wrote that the 1966 dual award to Michigan / Notre Dame was "the first time the HAF staff picked co-champions in college football since it started its selections in 1900". Ignoring the issue of the "started in 1900" retroactive error, this does seem to indicate the co-champions added above were added retroactively some time after 1967. PK-WIKI (talk) 20:18, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

1978 Los Angeles Times: "It was the first time the foundation has picked three teams to share the award. Seven times it has picked co-winners." PK-WIKI (talk) 01:51, 16 November 2022 (UTC)

1950 source in the Los Angeles Mirror prints the singular selections mentioned above for 1926, 1946, and 1947. PK-WIKI (talk) 20:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

1973 Helms publication of a "big booklet" College Football's National Championship Teams by the Helms Athletic Foundation. This is probably where the retroactive changes are coming from. Would like to find a copy. PK-WIKI (talk) 08:33, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Found a copy. As the result of its 1973 appraisal, the Athletic Foundation took the privilege of granting co-championship recognition to Stanford with Alabama in 1926; Notre Dame with the U.S. Military in 1946; Michigan with Notre Dame in 1947; and Ohio State with UCLA in 1954.

References

Jon Scott is an established subject-matter expert

Jon Scott is a subject-matter expert in college basketball history, in particular University of Kentucky basketball. He publishes a website, BigBlueHistory.net, which is a container for a very large amount of his work. An internet search for “Jon Scott” and Kentucky basketball turns up numerous instances, including major newspaper accounts, of his work being cited, not only for its accuracy, but also for its premier status as the foremost and most exhaustive compilation of its kind. His website is not a fan blog or a blog at all. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established subject-matter expert, which Jon Scott clearly is. At the particular web page cited in this article, Scott also acknowledges collaborations with other reliable experts Phil Porretta, Patrick Premo, NCAA head statistician Gary Johnson, the LA84 Library (which holds the former records of the Helms Foundation) along with “numerous other historians”. Jeff in CA (talk) 03:16, 16 November 2022 (UTC)