Talk:Herat/Archive 1

Aamir Khan Indian Actor is from Herat

it is said that Aamir Khan's Family were Originally from Herat,Afghanistan before they relocated to Karachi ,from Where they Moved to India. 178.32.76.147 (talk) 09:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Aamir Khan's ancestors (maybe centuries ago) relocated to India during the Muslim conquest/rule in India. That does not make him a native of Herat. Tajik (talk) 12:57, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Need sources and maybe editing

The part about the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan era: "Herāt was used by the Soviets." doesn't sound a very good English: was used as what? Military base? Checkpoint? Maybe would be ok to rewrite as "The Soviets kept military advisors/military units in Herat"

"there was a substantial presence of Soviet advisors in the city with their families." "Substantial" is not an accurate quantifier. What does it mean? Ten? One hundred? One thousand? Sources, by the way.

"some 35 Soviet citizens were killed. The Afghan Air Force, aided by the Red Army, bombed the city, causing massive destruction and some 24,000 civilian deaths." Sources, again.

About the Karzai administration

"Herāt is presently a part of Afghanistan's new central government, led by Hamid Karzai, who was initially backed by the United States." This makes very little sense. A city isn't a "part of a government": a city is "under the government", or "loyal to the government" or something like that.

About Karzai, I daresay that he is still backed up by the US and the ISAF: claiming that Karzai "was initially backed" etc. implies that he isn't backed anymore. So, sources, maybe.

Map? and Ethnic Populations

Were the original inhabitants ArIans or ArYans? As the former is asserted between two paragraphs talking about 500 BC and the 4th century Alexander the Great, I'd be very surprised if it were true, unless there are time-travelling Christian missionaries involved. So I'm guessing they were either Aryan or else the reference needs to be moved to a later spot in the chronology. -- Paul Drye

Just thought that a gallery would better serve this article.--Zereshk 06:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I go to Herat at least 3 or 4 times every year. From my observation...Tajiks (approximately half Shia and half Sunni) and Pashtuns (mostly originating from Kandahar area) appear as 50%/50%. Most people in the city speak Herati (localized Persian language). In other words, Herati is the official language of the city. Pashto is also spoken among some of the Pashtuns, although most Pashtuns rather speak Herati. This confuses the westerners, assuming all those that speak Herati are Tajiks. Anyone who is Afghan and familiar with Herat will tell you that Pashtuns make up the second largest population. User:NisarKand November 11, 2006

What map? The map of ethnic populations in Afghanistan with the main article? The scale is not sufficient for the municipality, if that is the map you think is used. Why not put this on the talk page for the article and discussion instead, or ask for a reference? KP Botany 21:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

User NisarKand is claiming that "Pashtuns are the second largest ethnic group in Herat", and he have this map as a reference (see here). Beside that fact that no other source actually mentiones the second largest group in Herat (who could be Pashtuns, but also Hazaras or Turkmen), the a map can never be a proof for such a claim, because it does not show the number of speakers but only the geographical range of a certain language.

There is no need to discuss this. It is a wrong source, and the claim has no base. NisarKand should discuss the issue before editing the article.

Tājik 21:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

You are not providing any data or sources that refute what NisarKand has backed up with the data he has provided, you simply say "there is no need to discuss this. It is a wrong source, and the claim has no base." You do not even say what is correct. Nothing, not what is right, not how or why it's wrong, simply that it is wrong. This is not an argument against the data, but simply your pushing your POV.

Herat is an important world city, so it would be useful to research the underlying statistics and add them to the article--maybe Human Rights Watch has the data, or researchers at UNOmaha (theirs may even be on-line), or researchers at the American University of Afghanistan may be able to answer questions about the current demographics of Herat. Until then, NisarKand has bothered to provide a reputable source, and you have not provided a source contradicting it, or alternative information, but have merely provided your point of view that the source and NisarKand are wrong.

Statistical data can be validly presented in graphs of all sorts, including maps. This map presents the information within the limits of its scale that metropolitan Herat is a city with two major ethnolinguistic groups.

The article still needs a lot more work to be current and useful, rather than an edit war. KP Botany 00:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

KP Botany, the problem with YOU is that you stubbornly and blindly support all the nonsense propagated by NisarKand. You did this in the article Afghanistan, and you are doing it here.

A map is NEVER a source, because it does not provide numbers. I could also say that "Chinese and Swahili are the thrid and fourth numerous languages in Herat" ... Will you be able to disprove this?!

It's not my job to find sources for NisarKand's (and your) nonsense ... YOU have to provide realiable sources BEFORE you edit the article and put nationalistic POV in it (and NisarKand is MOST DEFFINITLY a Pashtun nationalist ... he is neither an expert on Afghanistan, nor a scholar!).

He should have provided a better map, for example this one: [1] This one includes NUMBERS and it clearly states that Tajiks are the majority in both Herat and Kabul. In Herat, Tajiks are 85% of the population, Pashtuns being only 10% ... There is absolutely no reason to include the number of Pashtuns into the article - and especially not in the intro! There are more Tajiks in Kandahar than Pashtuns in Herat or Ghazni! In a previous comment NisarKand stated that from his own "observation...Tajiks (approximately half Shia and half Sunni) and Pashtuns (mostly originating from Kandahar area) appear as 50%/50%". And YOU even blindly support this nationalistic nonsense ... With all due respect, you do not seem to be neutral, either ...

PLEASE stop YOUR OWN POV-push ...

Tājik 10:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

This map you provide is not reliable either, because anyone can make a map nowadays with his numbers on it. How do you know these numbers are verified? As far as I know, adn as I mentioned earlier I am from Herat and so are all my ancestors, and we are Tajiks but NisarKand is right if he says that Pashtuns are the second largest group in Herat. But almost everyone in Herat, whether they are Tajik, Pashtun, Turkman, or any other group, speaks Herati dialect of Persian.IdrisModarres 18:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

By the way User Tajik you call yourself Tajik and Ghazilbash at the same time. And as far as I know Ghazilbash's are not Tajiks but Turkish in origin. IdrisModarres 18:53, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

To be honost, I'm really not in the mood to argue with anyone over the ethnic population of Herat or any other city of Afghanistan. If you guys want to add that the entire Afghanistan's population is Tajiks...you may go ahead and write this everywhere. You may also state that Kandahar is 100% Tajiks, like if this gonna change anything. I know the fact that User:Tajik is Qizibash or whatever you spell it...and this group of people are the least in Afghanistan. I don't even think they make 1% of Afghanistan's population. It is not my duty to come up with the exact number of ethnic people living in each city. As an Afghan and a proud Pashtun...I explain to westerners that since majority of the people speaking Dari, Farsi, Herati, Persian or whatever you call that language....this does not mean all of those are ethnic Tajiks. The best example is USA again....majority of people in USA speak Enlgish but that does not mean they are ethnic English people. You have people from every ethnic of the world living in USA and all speaking English. This is the case in Afghanistan.

User:Tajik goes around searching in garbage to find anything that mistakenly showes higher population of Tajiks in Afghanistan...and uses that falsely made information as evidence for his argument. This uneducated User:Tajik is clearly admitting to everyone here that his map from www.magix-photos.com Linkis the official estimate of Afghanistan's ethnic population. This User:Tajik assumes everyone in the world trust his trash that he finds online and expects us to believe his garbage. At the same time, this uneducated User:Tajik is strictly opposed to the map I provided from The University of Texas in Austin Link, which is a well known and most trusted University source. Even a non-talking donkey would turn face away from User:Tajik after learning of his nonsense and false information. User:Tajik is frustrated at Pashtuns for God knows why. I am not going to waste time with this uneducated User:Tajik any more, as I have much better things to do. We Pashtuns, with no doubts, have a very long history of ruling the region of Afghanistan. We successfully defeated Persians, Shias, British, Moghuls, Hindus, Russians and Tajiks. The Taliban were in fact Pashtuns and defeated the Tajiks after they assassinated Ahmad Shah Massoud on September 9, 2001. This is history and has nothing to do with my own nationalistic views. Iran, on the other hand, was badly defeated by Saddam Hussien in 1980s...and Iran does not have any history of winning any war. I am not against Iran in anyway by saying this...I am showing that I know more about history, which obviously makes me smart. Everybody is nationalistic in the world...this is nothing new...I would like User:Tajik to clearly say in here if he is nationalistic or not. Either he is or he is not...and nothing else. User:NisarKand November 13, 2006

This uneducated User:Tajik even goes to Pashtun people article and purposly removes the following information from there...Though no official sensus has ever been made in Afghanistan, an estimated 60 to 65% of all the people in Afghanistan speak Pashto Link. This uneducated User:Tajik does not believe anything or any source that showes higher number of Pashtuns or higher number of Pashto speakers in Afghanistan, meaning he or she has a serious ethnical problem with Pashtuns.

As I go to Kabul or other cities in Afghanistan...I see clowns posted many pictures or portraits of a dead Ahmad Shah Massoud everywhere...I ask my self why these clowns posting pictures of a dead person instead of the President of Afghanistan or even the vise President. This is what they call the work of silly clowns because these clowns are trying to make it appear as if Tajiks rule the country. Also, this is the precise reason why Taliban and others are regrouping. User:NisarKand November 13, 2006

No comment. You have been reported to admins because of racist remarks (calling Tajiks "rats") and politically inacceptable statments (taking pride in the actions of the Taliban). End of discussion. Tājik 18:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture replaced with an updated one.

This picture was replaced with an updated one, but I am placing it here in case we need it again in the future:

Remains of the Musallah complex.

Parsiwan 21:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

You should download the picture in the bigger size...by clicking on the top-left corner of the picture in its website. Its quality is better that way. If not then I will replace your picture with bigger size.--NisarKand 21:16, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh I see now! Thanks alot! I will upload a new version for all the ones I uploaded. Also for the one on the Kandahar article I uploaded last night. Thanks again for pointing that out! Parsiwan 21:23, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

hey, this is my photo, so i can provide a larger version if needed. i have the negatives and a 3700x2500 scan if you want... bluuurgh 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Its a great picture, thanks alot for uploading it. But that picure is a little outdated. Now the Musallah Complex has roads around it with traffic, so I think a more updated picture is better. But thanks again for uploading that nice picture. Parsiwan 05:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

User Tajik states that Most of Herat is Parsiwan, who are Shiite. But as far as I know, and I myself is from Herat, there are only a small minority of Shiite in Herat, who do trading most of all. Most of the land owners of Herat are Sunnis. But as I wrote in the article today there are many Hazara who settle in Herat with the help of Iran and the governer.

Religion of Heratis

User Tajik states that Most of Herat is Parsiwan, who are Shiite. But as far as I know, and I myself am from Herat, there are only a small minority of Shiite in Herat, who do trading most of all. Most of the land owners of Herat are Sunnis. But as I wrote in the article today there are many Hazara who settle in Herat with the help of Iran and the governer.

It's not my claim, but that of a scholar, and the source is attached to text. Personally, I do not know the exact percentage of Shias in Herat. But I do know that - compared to the rest of Afghanistan (except for Hazarajat) - the city of Herat has the largest concentration of Shias. So, as long as you do not have exact sources, please do not change the text. Tājik 15:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Tajik please do not remove my modifications. I did not remove your source that claims that almost all Herati's are Shiites. I just stated that it is wrong. This source of yours is from 1973. We know that in those times there were no exacts numbers about the population of all Afghanistan, let even Herat. And, as I stated, I am from Herat and my father is from Herat and so is my grandfather and so is my grand grandfather and so on, and I know a lot of Heratis, Shiites and Sunnis. And all of the Herati Shiites will agree with me on this that only in the center of the city live a Shiite minority, particularly in Bekr Abad. And most of the inhabitants and land owners are Sunnis. (I don't claim all of this because I am against Shiites, but only because I don't want people to read inaccurate facts about Herat.)

And as far as the Hazara immigration is concerned, it's a true fact. You do not have to wait until a researcher has made a study of it and published the results before you can report about it. It is a fact, go look in Herat. All our mosques were Sunni mosques(if many Heratis were Shiite there would probably be more Shiite mosques outside the city center). Last year when I visited my beloved city I saw in one of the old mosques (actually a shrine) in Herat, Imam Shish Noor, all this Shiite prayers clay tablets in this mosque together with a lot of Iranian propaganda hanging at the walls. Well as far as I know this in this area there were no Shiites in the past. So how do you explain that? And why would I not be aloud to write about it to inform the people about it?

Al thou I don't like personal attacks, but I begin to suspect that you are modifying this article just because you are a Shiite yourself. And you want to show that Herat is a Shiite city. So you go and dig through the sources and find one weak source that supports your claim and then you use that to spread what you want.

Another point: If you manage to get me abandoned, then this proves that Wikipedia is a bad source of information because of people like you. I don't have time to continue this edit war for eternity. But it seems like you have the time. And you will probably push through your will anyway. IdrisModarres 21:03, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I also have a question: why are all famous Heratis Sunnis if the majority of Heratis are Shiites? Why are all historic landmarks in Herat build by Sunnis? Not all scholarly sources are comparable.

And your source # ^ P. English, "Cities In The Middle East", e.d. L. Brown, Princeton University, USA 1973 is one of the least reliable sources, I believe. I couldn't find it anywhere in Holland University libraries. If it would be an authority on this subject I think there would be a copy of it somewhere in Holland. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IdrisModarres (talk • contribs) 22:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC).

How reliable is Encyclopedia Iranica? What does Iranica says about Afghanistan about Parsiwans: (http://www.iranica.com/newsite/articles/v1f5/v1f5a040a.html) Fa@rs^wa@n. Language: Dar^. Of the basic Mediterranean sub-stock, about 600,000 live near the Afghan-Iranian border or in the districts of Herat, Qandaha@r, GÚazn^, and other southern and western towns. The term Fa@rs^wa@n also has the regional forms Pa@rs^wa@n and Pa@rs^ba@n. In religion they are Imamite Shi¿ite. In the literature they are often mistakenly referred to as Tajik. Bibliog: P. English, “The Pre-industrial City of Herat,” Cities in the Middle East, ed. L. Brown, Princeton, 1973. H. Baghban, The Content and Concept of Humor in Magadi Theater, PhD thesis, Indiana University (University Microfilms 77-10-977).

Couple of remarks: Qandahar and Ghazni are NOT near the Iranian border, nor are they near the west. SO how reliable is this source anyway???!!! This is an Encyclopedia. And an Encyclopedia is not always right about every subject.

The articles says: "They lieve near the Afghan-Iranian border OR in Herat, Qandahar, and Ghazni". You certainly lack the ability to read and/or to understand. Encyclopaedia Iranica is a primary source and is authoritative. This is what scholars say about Iranica. Tājik 20:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I have another question: if most of Heratis are Shiites then how come that at the last elections their representatives were not all elected to Wolesi Jirga & Provincial Council? Why did most of the Heratis choose Sunni's as their representatives? I can not believe it. If I am correct the first highest place in the Wolesi Jirga to be taken by a Shiite is the tenths place and he got only 1.8 % of all the votes; In the Provincial Council it is the second place and still this guy, called Najafi, got only 3.1 percent of all the votes. (http://www.results.jemb.org/province.asp?ProvinceID=24 )

Iranica may be an authority on Iran but it certainly is not on Afghanistan related subjects. There have been not any reliable researches about Afghan population for decades. So how can someone have exact numbers about the population of Afghanistan?

And for the Hazara immigration to Herat, look at all the tension there is the last years between Sunnis and Shiites in Herat. You act like you are an authority on Herat. I don't think you have ever been in Herat. Neither the one that wrote about the Parsiwans in Iranica.

And as the term Parsiwan: the Pashto speaking people in Afghanistan call every Persian speaker a Parsiwan, and some of them, in particularly the Taliban, accuse all the Farsi speakers of being Shiite. Due to this during the reign of the Taliban it was very hard for the Persian speaking majorities in Herat, and other parts of Afghanistan, because Taliban did not liked Shiites, and accused Tajiks of being Shiite and friends of Iran.

I don't know whether I ever will be able to convince you, but I will continue to correct your mistake. I am not an expert on all the other things you write about, but on Herat I know what I am talking about.IdrisModarres 00:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect: you have absolutely no knowledge of the subject. Your comments about Iranica (the standard reference work on Iranian and Islamic studies) and your odd theories about elections (and in this case, you probably assume that 100% of Herat's population participated in the elections) show this. You do not even know the difference between Islamic Republic Iran and the more general term Iran which is used for Iranian peoples, Iranian languages, Iranian plateau, etc.

As long as you have no reliable sources, you should not change the article based on your own POV. Tājik 01:28, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This is Afghanistan

There is a certain "tone" to all the arguments made in this page. There is a tone that tries to make everything "Afghan"="Pashtun" to core of its bone. I would like to ask everybody to please put away tribal-nationalism and tell the reality instead of fighting whether a city is "Afghan" or not. Wishing for a city to be a Pashtun city does not make it Pashtun. If a city was influenced by a non-pasthun culture, whether you like it or not, it must be mentioned as this is supposadly an encyclopedia and should be away from any biased. Please show less hate in your discussions. Thank you. --74.12.102.11 (talk) 23:22, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Who are Native People of Herat

Native people of Herat are those who have lived in the region known by many names and many spellings such Latin Aryia, came from Greek Source Aria, Old Persian-Haraiva, Middle Pashtu-Haraeuua, and Arabic Hiryrat modern Herat. Today people may have difficulty knowing or defining native Heratis, and creating confusion over ethnicities etc, most people of Herat share the exact culture, tradition, and facial characteristics like the rest of their country man Afghans. However since years have past and globalization did takes place or it may specially during Arabs, when Islam was promoting intermarriages, Mongolian Timurids, further later during two Persian empires Safavid and Khwarezmian, perhaps like the Persian invasions or the Greeks Uzbeks/Arabs/Mongols/Turkistani may also had some influence in this part of the Afghan region. This is why many of those unrelated races from many nations assume people of Herat as their own, simply because they were considered to be from same linguistic community that belongs to a linguistic class assumes the rest of the region belongs to their own ethnicity. Well perhaps there are communities within Herat which supports their ideas such as well known few communities found such as "Arabs"-Semtics, "Amaq"-Persians, and other people from Tukristan nations such as related with Uzbekstan, Tajikistan. Ignore the majority or the native people and assume the whole of Herat as their own. So How do we define Heratis, conflict does arrive, what should we do?

The only way back is trough tribal means, in order to define modern Heratis, we must figure the Ancient tribes of the region, perhaps modern living tribe can trace to that linkage. A very shocking claim came by one of the users who considered Pure Herati, to be "Tajik". Such as Aziz Herawi who also claims the word Herawi" which means he is Herati. Although its shocking specially to Afghans, at the same time rubbish. I could easily come up with my own conclusion to who were these "Pure Heraties" if we refer to sources provided by famous well known European/Greek Historian, Herodotus, mentioining a tribe brought from Herat areas known as Saga-Rhuthia or Sagartioi, founded in the capital of Aria. According to Herodotus, Persian imperial King Xerxes bought out this fierce warriors with a high price, his army had total of 8000 strong Sagartioi riders dressed as Persian like the rest of army but were close to their neighboring "Pactyans"Pakthas in Race, "Their weapon of choice were also of Pactyans".

According to Caroe who points out the Durrani. Which can be true! I mean they have three major tribes all origin of Saka or Saga and one of those Panjpai Western sub-tribes maybe those in modern Herat could be Sag-A-ratieo (Sagartioi) of Herodotus. Please refer to Herodotus's book, also the book called THE PATHANS 55O B.C.-A.D. by OLAF CAROE, ST MARTIN'S PRESS 1958, now without any knowledge and with some 40% of Heratis are Pashtu speakers with some 75% connected with the rest of the tribes of the Afghanistan, its impossible to say Pure Heraties are are this or that or non-Afghans. One has to define Pure and then refer to historical texts. Therefore to people of Turkistan and Iran, I request that Afghans should be respected as who they are, not as who you want them to be. So if persons born to be from this region, please do not give their ethnicity unless, you have a reliable source, where that person claims that he actually does belong to one of those groups living in Iran/Turkistan, such as Tajik/Uzbek/Persian.

Thanks

Alishah85 (talk) 05:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Flag

There's serious doubts that the pictured flag is from Herat. Several contemporary plates show a different flag, and furthermore in 1930 Herat was not independent neither autonomous; I believe, agreeing with the main vexillological sources that the flag was the one of the short lived regime of Bacha-i-Sakwao (1929-1930)--83.56.237.47 (talk) 14:45, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

List of Referenced content deleted from this article

• 8th Jan 2011 user Artacoana deleted the folowing referenced content for no assigned reason and adds uncited content .Intothefire (talk) 14:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The Islamic conquest came with the Arabs who arrived in 7th century at which time Herat .

“ even as late as the end of the 6th century the famous general Bahrām Chobin could use Herat as base for fighting the Turks . But durying the civil wars in the west which began immediately afterwards , the oasis slipped out of Sassanian hands . By the early seventh century it was considered enemy territory . When the Arabs arrived they found in Herat no marzban contrary to what they had done in safely held Sassanian bases such as Marv and Nishapur . The stereotype Arab accounts of conquest of course mention the conquerors(and there are several candidates for this honor) as well as the size of the tribute (1000,000 Dirhams). In reality the the enclave was more an allied principality than a subjugated province . . Only under the Abbasids and later the Tahirids Samanids , Ghaznavids ”

Herāt was under the rule of King Nuh III of Samanidthe seventh of the Samanid line—at the time of Sebük Tigin and his older son, Mahmud of Ghazni.

The governor of Herāt was a noble by the name of Faik, who governed on behalf of Nuh III. Faik was a powerful, but insubordinate governor of Nuh III; and had been punished by Nuh III. Faik made overtures to Bogra Khan and Ughar Khan of Turkestan. Bogra Khan answered Faik's call, came to Herāt and became its master. The Samanids fled, betrayed at the hands of Faik to whom the defence of Herāt had been entrusted by Nuh III.

In 994, Nuh III invited Alp Tigin to come to his aid. Alp Tigin, along with Mahmud of Ghazni, defeated Faik and annexed Herāt, Nishapur and Tous.<ref>{{cite book

 |last1  = Skrine
 |first1 = Francis Henry
 |last2  = Ross
 |first2 = Edward Denison
 |title = The heart of Asia: a history of Russian Turkestan and the Central Asian Khanates from the earliest times
 |publisher = Routledge

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