Talk:Herbert (Family Guy)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 10:53, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Happy to take a look. Josh Milburn (talk) 10:53, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

• "Henry defines Herbert as a pedophile" defines is the wrong word. describes, perhaps. This seems to be key to the character, yet receives little discussion in the article body. I note that in the scholarly literature Herbert is identified variously as a pedophile and as an ephebophile.
• The lead and the article body differ on Herbert's appearances in spin-offs (specifically, The Cleveland Show) and the cited source doesn't seem to support the statement.
• "his dog Jesse is similarly decrepit" Is it not a little insensitive to describe someone on a frame as "decrepit"? You could just provide a description of Jesse; some of the sources I've added to the article have a fairly detailed description.
• "In his first appearance, "To Love and Die in Dixie" (season 3, 2001), Herbert tries to get Chris inside the house by offering him a popsicle." What's your reference for this?
• "in the style of Cyrano de Bergerac" what does this mean?
• "Herbert is revealed to be a war veteran and sings "God Bless the USA" in the Veterans Day parade" Is this in the source cited? I can't see it...
• I tried to check your Jason Hughes source, but the link isn't going anywhere useful.
• I get the feeling that your "role in Family Guy" section is more of a list of appearances than a description of the character/his role.
• "Henry met Family Guy creator Seth MacFarlane when his brother Patrick was a classmate of MacFarlane's at the Rhode Island School of Design" Clumsy
• "Herbert was not originally a pedophile; Henry pitched the idea to the writers of the show, leading to the decision to make him one" I'm not sure I understand this
• "IGN, an American entertainment website, has generally commented" I'm not keen on this; why not attribute the view to particular writers? Different writers for IGN are going to have different views on Herbert. One of them writes that "The Herbert character in general probably needs to be retired for good. His creepiness isn't compensated by any real comedic value. Sure, he's a pedophile and is supposed to make the audience feel awkward by his presence, but other than that there's really nothing funny about him." That certainly doesn't sound positive, but it does sound like something that should be in the article.
• "They pointed out that Herbert is one of the most popular recurring characters in the series,[5][18] referring to him (with his dog Jesse) as one of the characters that stuck out from the rest." This is very weaselly.
• "Although IGN has praised Herbert in general they have criticized some aspects of him" See both above points.
• "In their list of "What Else Should Family Guy Make Fun Of?"" Clumsy
• The link in your Rob Owen reference isn't going anywhere useful.
• Do any of your references for "Herbert lives in the fictional town of Quahog, Rhode Island which is modeled after Cranston, Rhode Island." actually mention Herbert?
• What's the value of the Koski reference?
• Do any of your references for the merchandise mention Herbert specifically?
• I have added three pieces of further reading which offer some brief discussion/useful mentions of Herbert (I came across another piece in German, but that was only a passing mention). These could be incorporated.
• I think your image of Herbert should really include Jesse.

I don't think this article is where it needs to be for GA status. There are some fairly major problems with the sourcing, and I think the way you've gone about structuring the article doesn't really work. I'm sorry- I'm sure this isn't what you wanted to hear. I'm happy to leave this review open to give you a chance to respond/make some fixes as appropriate. Josh Milburn (talk) 11:27, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, three other quick points: Josh Milburn (talk) 11:35, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

1. If you don't have access to any of the material I've cited, I can help. I also have access to Nexis, but, judging from the sources you cite, I assume you do too.
2. Please double-check my edits.
3. The formatting of your citations (e.g., use of italics, date formatting) is a bit all over the place. This is not something that needs to be fixed for GAC purposes.

I've decided I may as well copy across the information I thought useful:

• McKeown and Darke, p. 158: Family Guy has a "remarkable array" of disabled characters, including Joe Swanson, Peter Griffin, Jake Tucker, Seamus, "Greased-up Deaf Guy", Opie, Ellen (from "Extra Large Medium") "and Herbert, an elderly Roman Catholic pedophine who uses a Zimmer Frame who also has a "crippled" dog called Jesse who is paralyzed from the midriff down and drags his body around (more than 45 episodes)." ... "Clearly disability is a key component of Family Guy."
• Zenor, p. 25: "The elderly are also the target of jokes in Family Guy. The elderly are under-represented in the media (Potter, 2008) and when they are represented they are often portrayed as stereotypes: being in poor health, senile, constipated, and incontinent (Deets, 1993). The same is true on Family Guy. Herbert the Pervert is an elderly neighbor. He and his dog are shown as slow and wrinkled. Herbert is confined to a walker, while the dog cannot use his hind legs. // The gay community is another target of Family Guy's jokes. A running joke in the show is that the infant Stewie Griffin is homosexual. While the elderly neighbor, Herbert the Pervert, is attracted to young boys and is constantly harassing Chris, the Griffin’s teenage son. Herbert also has a high-pitched effeminate voice. Another character is Jasper, who is Brian the Dog’s flamboyant, homosexual cousin."
• Rosewarne, p. 7: "Unlike The Simpsons, however, Family Guy has - more controversially - presented homosexuality in a far less positive light: homosexuality in Family Guy is routinely portrayed as something to laught at. [Quote from the philosopher Jeremy Wisnewski that said that gay people in FG are all flamboyant.] // More than simply flamboyant, however, is the show's troubling convergence of homosexuality and pedophilia. The recurring elderly character Herbert, for example, is presented as having an obsession with his teenage neighbor Chris and is described by communications researchers John Kundert-Gibbs and Kristin Kundert-Gibbs in their book on animation as "the consummate old man lech."[citation] The muddling of homosexuality and pedophilia has long been viewed as problematic by homosexual activists, who rightfully resent their legal sexual preferences being construed as predatory or akin to criminal activity. While it could be contended that Herbert is just one character - and thus shouldn't be perceived as speaking on behalf of all homosexuals - the reality is that Herbert is one of a very small number of recurring gay characters and is presented as embodying not merely a stereotype, but a hateful character indictment that continues to be made against homosexuals in real life."
  • pp. 7-8, a comparison to Mr. Garrison of South Park, who "is also "illustrative of some of the more problematic ways homosexuality is presented in popular culture: as not merely something different or nonmainstream, but rather as freakish, if not potentially criminal."
• Ricke I only included because she identifies Herbert as an ephebophile on p. 121- I thought, given the discussion on the talk page, that this may be useful.

As you can see, valuable material that could be useful in expanding the article. Josh Milburn (talk) 12:39, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

J Milburn, you are right, please close this immediately. I've never edited an article quite like this, so I didn't know where the bar was. Your analysis shows that it's miles up from here. '''tAD''' (talk) 00:33, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Ok, that's fair. Closing now. Josh Milburn (talk) 02:14, 24 June 2016 (UTC)