Talk:Herbert Kappler

Article taken verbatim from published source

The original article, created by an anonymous editor with no subsequent contributions nor active talk page, was apparently transcribed verbatim from the entry on Herbert Kappler in the Encyclopaedia of the Holocaust and no attribution given. (Section headers were added.) As copyright violation would unfortunately result in the deletion of this article, I'm taking the following action:

• Adding citation of the source article in References
• Light copyediting of the text (limited by time constraints)

I would appreciate if other editors would assist by further copyediting so that only relevant material remains. --Thanks, Deborahjay 19:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

FURTHER TREATMENT - see next heading on copyright violation -- Deborahjay 19:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Tagging article for copyright violation

Upon further advice at the New contributors' help page, it seems that the proper course of action is to tag the article for copyright violation -- that will result in its deletion and the need for rewriting, rather than editing the existing article. As an interim measure, I'm adding the citation under References as above. -- Deborahjay 19:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

have done some further editing including adding a little info plus tidying, translation, references and 'see also'. Consequently (and based on the work by others in the intervening period) have removed the 'stub' appellations to return it to uncategorized to allow others to judge. Also note the copyright violation has long since been removed. - HTH r 03:12, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 16:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Msgr O'Flaherty and Kappler's interactions with the Vatican/Church

[1] adds some insight into Kappler as well as what may well be an article on Msg O'Flaherty. In accordance with guidelines i have not put external link in the article. There are 4 sections (1 Times article, 1 sourced from a book on the subject and 2 of unclear attribution). I hope they will either be of interest or of use to add to actual articles. r 03:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Kappler's Age During the First World War

The article states that Kappler was 7 when the conflict started, and 14 when it finished. The First World War lasted for four years, so this does not make sense. Mahrooq (talk) 12:23, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Iron Cross

I reverted the recent edit showing Kappler was awarded the Iron Cross. It is not in his SS service record and security/SD personnel (contrary to popular myth) were rarely awarded this medal - it was for combat service in armed conflict and not for "behind the lines" duties. -OberRanks (talk) 02:34, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

cf. Richard Breitman: New Sources on the Holocaust in Italy Holocaust Genocide Studies (WINTER) 16(3): 402-414 doi:10.1093/hgs/16.3.402, p. 406, footnote 25 (Kaltenbrunner to Kappler, 12 Oct. 1943, decode no. 7512). 85.178.248.224 (talk) 18:32, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

No doubt a secondary source may be cited, but it is perhaps WP:FRINGE. The primary source disagrees, and I've never read or seen this in any other publication. The "smoking gun" as it were, is that this decoration also does not appear in his SS service record. We should keep this out until additional sources may be provided. -OberRanks (talk) 20:08, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression we don't do sources here. But you might wish to check on BArch R70 Italien/19 and R70 Italien/20 for that matter anyway. 85.178.248.224 (talk) 04:49, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I believe we need a few more sources, perhaps even a photo of him wearing it. Historically, it would not have made any sense for an SD colonel in the police to be awarded an Iron Cross. Much more likely the War Merit Cross (which he also never received). It was also a combat award, and would not have been issued for "behind the lines" services which is what he did in Rome. -OberRanks (talk) 18:16, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how Kappler could have ever been awarded the Iron Cross as he never had any war-time front-line service from 1939 through 1945. Therefore, any info. on same is probably not correct. BTW-he is listed in the book, "Roll of Infamy" p. 87; that book will tell all his awards.

FYI, here is what "Axis History Forum" has on the man: Kappler, Herbert Adolf (1907-9.2.1978) [SS-Obersturmbannführer] – commander, German Security Police and Security Service (Sicherheitspolizei und Sicherheitsdienst – Sipo/SD) in Rome {impending trial before an allied military tribunal announced 28 Sept 1945 (NYT 29 Sept 1945:9:1); convicted of war crimes -- including the 24 Mar 1944 Ardeatine Caves massacre -- by an Italian court at Rome Jun 1948 and sentenced to death; later reduced to life imprisonment (NYT 25 Oct 1952:12:5; NYT 26 Oct 1952:24:7); married in prison 1972 (NYT 16 Aug 1977:9:1); West German request for pardon refused by Italy May 1973 (NYT 14 May 1973:6:1); transferred to Rome military hospital Mar 1976 suffering from terminal stomach cancer (NYT 16 May 1976:26:2); granted provisional liberty by an Italian military tribunal 13 Nov 1976 but decision annulled by Italian Supreme Court 15 Dec 1976 (NYT 16 Dec 1976:7:1); escaped 15 Aug 1977 in a suitcase carried by his wife Annaliese and went into hiding in Germany (NYT 16 Aug 1977:9:1; NYT 17 Aug 1977:8:3 and 9:1; NYT 18 Aug 1977:6:1; NYT 19 Aug 1977:8:1; NYT 22 Aug 1977:26:3; NYT 24 Aug 1977:11:1; NYT 27 Aug 1977:33:1; NYT 4 Sept 1977:4:1); Italian extradition request rejected (NYT 18 Aug 1977:6:5; NYT 22 Sept 1977:4:3); died at Soltau 9 Feb 1978 (NYT 10 Feb 1978:5:1; NYT 11 Feb 1978:4:4). (Fascist Italy 293; Encyclopedia of the Third Reich p. 38; Secrets of the SS 207-208; Holo Ency 785; SS: Roll of Infamy p. 87). Kierzek (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

Ailsby? Axis History Forum? HGS fringe? Why don't you people just get "Record Group 226, Entry 112, Misc. X-2 Files, Box 1, Folder 5, Italian Decodes." up from the basement and check for yourselves? Suggested reading [2] [3] [4] [5] 78.53.39.95 (talk) 05:32, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Kind of funny. I actually could do that now. -O.R.^Comms 21:15, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

The fact that there is no record of this decoration in his SS service record makes this very questionable - also no photographs showing him wearing this award nor a single German document which reads "EKI" by his name. It also does not appear in any of the other major biographical texts regarding SS officers, such as "Roll of Infamy" or the works of Yerger. No one is denying there is a secondary source that claims this award, but that source is contradicted by other primary and secondary sources as well. -OberRanks (talk) 11:41, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

You are right, there is no German document which reads "EKI" by his name. There is however a decoded message by Kaltenbrunner to Kappler mentioning the EK2. But that's as good as the real thing. The omission in his service record is no contradiction as you claim - these records were badly kept especially in the later years of the war. They were a bit overwhelmed with the workload - and the Allied bombing, too. Maybe they didn't get the message in the Personalhauptamt. Roll of Infamy was published in 1997, if I am not mistaken - the Kappler decodes were only declassified in 2000. No contradiction there, same probably applies to Yerger. You are trying to proof a negative here, that's not gonna work. 85.178.246.138 (talk) 15:47, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Those are good points, but it is inescapable that this was a combat decoration and Kappler was never in combat. The Nazis were quite...anal?...about not awarding medals for which the recipient did not fully qualify. I think there is enough here to add that perhaps he was recommended for it (according to some sources), but while also stating that it would have been very unusual if he actually did receive it. Nice civil discussion, all around, by the way. My compliments to everyone and this was very interesting. -OberRanks (talk) 17:16, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Just so - the EK2 was also awarded for a supportive role in a battlefield environment, cf. Hanna Reitsch. With the occupation of Italy and Mussolini's "liberation", Kappler might have been qualified. On the other hand, with more than 3 million awards, the EK2 was almost "standard issue". 85.178.246.138 (talk) 19:08, 11 April 2012 (UTC)

Who came to mind for me was SS officer Walter Schellenberg, but he was in harm's way, playing a direct role (as opposed to just a supporting role) in the Venlo Incident. He was awarded the EK2 and EK1. I believe OberRanks last suggestion is the best way to handle the matter at this time. Kierzek (talk) 14:46, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

I hear what you are saying. As the contributor of the information about the Iron Cross award, I explain it did not occur to me to doubt the information from "The Scarlet and the Black". The springing of Mussolini was the same incident for which Otto Skorzeny received a Ritterkreuz personally from Hitler, exaggerating the degree of fighting this involved (he said several of his own men were wounded but in fact the guards put up ineffectual resistance). I am also aware the Iron Cross was awarded to certain agents spying for the Nazis, such as the Briton Chapman, the safecracker (who unbeknown was acting as a double agent to the advantage of the British effort). Exact total figures for award of the Iron Cross during WWII have, unlike in WWI, not been compiled, so I am open to the possibility he may have been missed off the records. Ritterkreuz awards were numbered but I do not recall the class of the Iron Cross stated to be awarded Kappler, it could have been a humbler grade.Cloptonson (talk) 20:41, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Recent edit

Preserving here by providing this link; pls see edit summary for rationale. K.e.coffman (talk) 07:08, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Likewise, adding this diff. --K.e.coffman (talk) 07:10, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

There was no consensus to remove any of that material. If "citation needed" tags are called for, give us that chance since all of this material is heavily verified. Kappler was a major figure in the German occupation and all of this info is of historic interest. I also see no reason at all to blank large portions about his early life, including the fact he was an Army military reservist, which is also of historical interest. Please do not blank this material again without consensus. -O.R.^Comms 13:56, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Material added by OberRanks

I re-removed the material, which I'm preserving here by providing this link. My rationale was: "Uncited / unreliably cited intricate detail ". The content was restored by OberRanks, now site-banned for fabricating sources, so should be presumed to be dubious. For more information, please see: User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/OberRanks. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:33, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

diff: more unsourced material removed that was added by OberRanks in this 2009 series of edits. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:38, 15 September 2018 (UTC)

I haven't been to this article for about two years, but a lot of the material that used to be here apparently came from Kappler's file at the National Archives. I'm sure it could be research and restored if someone wanted to take the time to do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.245.177.11 (talk) 22:23, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

100 to 1 ?

"Kappler organised the Ardeatine massacre, in which 335 Italian civilians were killed on 24 March 1944 in response to a direct order from Adolf Hitler to "kill 100 Italians for each German""

Shouldn't it say 10 to 1 ? 109.144.16.51 (talk) 00:51, 7 February 2023 (UTC)