Talk:Herbert Sobel

Rank

Why does the first paragraph and the right column list him as a Captain when he retired a Lieutenant Colonel? That doesn't seem right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.16.146.204 (talk) 03:17, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Not cool for his family not to attend his funeral

That's not cool how his family didn't attend his funeral. I don't care how mean people say he is, if he's family you gotta at least attend his funeral. 205.174.22.28 05:37, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

The man tried to kill himself, and apparently lived in a vegetative state after that. I think it would be safe to assume that if his family did not attend his funeral, it was because they had already said goodbye.

I agree, I would think family would at least attend his funeral. However sources say they were estranged, and not our family so different situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.56.100.23 (talk) 20:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind that Ambrose's writing is not by any means authoritative. Witness the major-league goof on Albert Blithe who died of wounds in Normandy according to Ambrose, but who in actuality died in 1967, a highly-decorated (and hardly low-profile) MSG (E-8) with the 82nd Airborne. Band of Brothers as a whole relies overly much on anecdote, and one of the major sources clearly has an axe to grind on the topic of Sobel. So take the book with a grain of salt, people; it's a good read, but it's not history.

Likewise, good line officers are not always good staff officers, and vice versa, and no army in the world has enough of either. If you take out the editorializing, Sobel comes out as a good staff officer, perhaps even a superior one. Look at Sir Frederick Morgan. The Walt below talking about "fragging" junior officers needs to stop watching war movies. --MPA —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.249.20.215 (talk) 03:43, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Sobel succeeded

Commanders during basic training were expected to train the men hard and get the men to bond together into a team. Being liked was not a requirement. Sobel succeeded

I agree. Sobel deserved a lot of the credit for how the men turned-out, and he deserved more respect in the book and film for his contribution. I am sorry that his image is so tarnished, but, unfortunately, based upon the men's public comments, he is most responsible for his resulting ill-favored legacy. GUEST, 6-5-2006.

I found this interesting site [1] and provides Captain Herbert Sobel's post-war history...interesting and sad reading. GUEST, 6-5-2006.

Yeah, history judged him harshly... You really have to see how much contribution he made to the regiment. Btw, nice link there.

"I want to say - Captain Sobel - rest in peace. It is a very sad thing that his wartime experiences led to such a life of misery. He did not deserve it. He tried as hard as he could to make it as an Airborne officer, but try as he might, he just could not do it. He should be respected for his effort. Anyone who tries that hard deserves respect. It was his failings that caused his jealousy of Winters. But should we condemn the man for getting jealous of someone who was better than he was? I don't think so. Who hasn't ever been jealous of someone who has what you want most?

Interesting link, but really sad. He was an even bigger ass in real life, and it takes quite a bit of effort to be so hated by your own kids and family that they would never attend your funeral.

"Trying Hard" is not generally considered a prerequisite to being an effective infantry officer. He couldn't cut it, and instead of admitting it, he took it out on others. That he managed to prepare a company for combat was co-incidental to his being an ass. He would have earned far more respect by admitting his failings and moving on to something he was good at. Had he actually led the men into combat, all indications are that he would have cracked, and gotten many men killed, ala Lieutenant Dike. All the "trying hard" in the world would not have brought back the men he killed. As for his "leadership style", there are many kinds. His style wasn't the only effective one, so those in awe of how good his company turned out to be probably haven't experienced truly shitty leaders like that for real. I don't pretend to be a paratrooper or even an infantryman, but I've known petty tyrants like Sobel in a military setting, and the careers they ruin out of spite are never worth it. How many truly good paratroopers did Sobel turf out on a whim? I guess it is something you have to experience firsthand before you begin to understand it. I'll save my pity and sorrow for someone who deserves it; based on all accounts of this person whom I've never met, I still have to say he's not one of them.Michael Dorosh 02:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Captain Herbert Sobel should not be remembered as a petty tyrant. He should be remembered as a man who tried his best, and that in itself deserves respect" (Chris Hook). (Offtopic: You guys watched the Band of Brothers marathon on sunday June 4th, didn't you? jak722 18:04, 06 June 2006

Mr. Ambrose highlighted in The Band of Brothers episode the parts that affected the troops Sobel was in charge of. There is always more to a person that was is highlighted in a film. It is a shame that none of his family members attanded his funeral. I am sure there was a reason for that. JET

I disagree with Michael Dorosh. Members of Easy have reflected how Sobel's treatment prepared them for combat. The 'chickenshit' and 'petty tyrant' I don't buy. I mean I don't buy that as an excuse for the guys under him or as a bad reflection on Sobel. The military has plenty of people lke that as does civilian life. Most of us have to deal w/ a manager or leader like that. Get over it, it happens. You deal and move on. If he revoked your weekend pass or some little thing or stole something personal to you because he did a search for illegal contraband, that sucks but get over it. Now as for the inability to read maps, lead men in the field, etc, THAT is different and it's a good thing he was never in a leadership position in real combat. But as far as the things he did to piss his men off, oh well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.56.100.23 (talk) 20:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Can we please recognise that all of the information presented in this article comes from one sole source: Stephen Ambrose. This is not adequete to then be drawing conclusions about the character of a man who none of us ever met or knew. David Schwimmer's portrayal is certainly a strong one, but is undoubtedly a caricature of the way the Easy Company men viewed him. This article really requires at least one more reference, and one that comes from a different source.144.139.119.169 (talk) 03:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly correct. As Ambrose is a known plagiarist and has been shown to create “facts” this whole article needs to be re-referenced from actual sources. Enderwigginau (talk) 21:48, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Having been an infantry officer, this guy was soup sandwich. He would have been fraged when the opportunity came. You lovey dovey types will never understand that. What works in the civilian world gets you killed in the Army.76.177.38.236 (talk) 05:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Not much of an officer if you couldn’t control yourself or your men enough to prevent fragging. All talk. Considering how rare dragging was, even in the past, uts pathetic that you’re trying it on lol Enderwigginau (talk) 21:50, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Some of the most oft cited "greatest" military leaders in U.S. history have been what most people would term "jerks" or "hard-asses"; look at George Washington, "Stonewall" Jackson, and George Patton. Sobel didn't have the tactical skills any of those leaders had, but he did have the ability to train great soldiers. The leaders who are unforgiving, demanding and driven by details make some of the best trainers. Their men learn early on that there are no excuses for failure to follow orders, no excuses for bad weather or bad luck. There is only accomplishing your objective or not accomplishing it. In training, that makes for very tough, very adaptive troops. In civilian life it makes you unpopular. Give Sobel his due.209.115.232.65 (talk) 21:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Soldierofchicago (talk) 22:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)Sobel would've been a superb Marine Corps drill instructor!!! I'm sort of conflicted about Sobel. On one end, he was a horse's backside yet on the other you can't really expect that kind of training to be your average training! Marine boot camp was tough when I went through back in 1982. Remember, the 101st Airborne Division was going up against seasoned units of the Wehrmacht! They were parchuted behind enemy lines against German infantry and panzer divisions commanded by Field Marshal Erwin Rommel. Sobel's training was to me top flight, preparing fighting men for the rigors of sustained combat! His failings was not recognizing that his field of expertise was instilling supreme military discipline in his soldiers and also his jealousy towards Captain Winters. Sobel needed serious character development and self esteem enhancement.

Finally, I was in the infantry and in truth Sobel would've gotten Easy Company slaughtered!! By trying hard you can still respect a person for trying! We all should!! But Sobel was'nt combat leader caliber. Personally, he would've been a better NCO than officer. He woul'vd pushed the men to the limit as a company first sergeant. In any military as in civilian life there are different kinds of leadership! Thank You, Gerald Johnson.

Reading Band of Brothers right now. This quote caught my eye. "Rod Strohl looked me in the eye and said flatly, "Herbert Sobel made E Company." Others said similar. But they nearly all hated him." The book goes into detail. Sobel apparently wasn't a combat leader, but he was able to train them superbely. Where the soldiers groused about having to do extra training, Winters thought it was a great idea. Every soldier Stephen Ambrose interviewed from Easy, he asked them if Easy company was such a good company because of Sobel, or in spite of Sobel. Most replied "both", the rest replied because of Sobel. So there you have it. Alyeska (talk) 01:15, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

What????

According to Richard Winters's autobiographical book, Sobel was said to have grown up in Chicago, which was a main reason behind Sobel's erratic behavior when commanding Easy Company. •Jim62sch• 22:45, 15 June 2007 (UTC).

Winters was a genius and had a good point about Chicago. After all, look who's running the country right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.70.152.211 (talk) 01:55, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Just read Richard Winters' book Biggest Brother: The Life of Major Dick Winters, The Man Who Led the Band of Brothers. There was a page or two dedicated to talking about Sobel, and Winters gave the explanation of why Sobel was the person he was.

Herbert Sobel had three sons - Herbert jr, Michael and Richard. I lived next door to the family in Chicago. Please correct this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.17.49.181 (talk) 02:53, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Contradiction

A statement in the lead: Sobel also served in Korea where he commanded a rifle company doesn't gel with a statement in the "After WWII" section, where it is indicated that It is unknown if he was stationed in Korea or remained in the United States. At the very least it is terribly unclear. I tagged both for cites and added the contradictory tag, maybe someone with a bit more knowledge about LTC Sobel can clear up the apparent confusion.--IvoShandor (talk) 05:14, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Ambrose and unfair portrayal.

Ambrose said Blythe was killed because when he interviewed the soldiers from Easy, that is what they were told. And that is what they said about Sobel. So that is what he wrote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.21.47.50 (talk) 15:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Incorrect, Ambrose cherry picked facts and quotes to suit his narrative (and is believed to have invented some aspects). All involved later claimed it was Sobel’s training that saved their lives during the war, and a number were unhappy with how he was portrayed. Enderwigginau (talk) 19:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Attempted Suicide

I feel like the description of his attempted suicide is overly graphic. Perhaps we could get rid of the description of the path the bullet traveled and only mention that it left him blind? Not your average hamster (talk) 07:25, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Removing anything from that sentence will not leave the reader with the same amount of information. If you just wrote "he shot himself and went blind", information is lacking. How did it blind him? Why didn't it kill him? The sentence, as it is now, answers these questions. Regarding its graphic nature, there is no precedence on Wikipedia for censoring textual descriptions for being too graphic. --Ifrit (Talk) 09:29, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Brotherton (2009)

Two books within the article are Brotherton (2009), so it is currently unclear whether any particular reference refers to "Call of Duty: My Life Before, During and After the Band of Brothers" or "We Who Are Alive and Remain: Untold Stories from The Band of Brothers". Is anyone with access to the books able to clarify? Thanks. Longwayround (talk) 11:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't have the sources, but I inserted harv refs and distinguished 2009 and 2009a. Glrx (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Longwayround (talk) 21:29, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Capt HERBERT SOBEL on Film

I am English and have just been watching 'The World at War', a British TV Series from 1973. It is in 26 parts/episodes; in Part 15 of 26, called 'Home Fires', I am sure I saw a sequence which showed a film shot of Captain Herbert Sobel full face in amongst other soldiers being spoken to by Churchill. It is the same as the picture of Sobel seen in the 'Article' overleaf. This sequence is shown after black American Soldiers are seen marching down a street in England and Americans in a dance hall. It is followed by Churchill watching an American parachute jump. It is about two thirds of the way through the episode. I am not an expert on this man and the only picture I have seen of him is in the book 'Band of Brothers' by Stephen Ambrose, but if this is not Sobel I would be surprised. I note from the book that Churchill and Eisenhower inspected Easy Company in March of 1944. There is a photo of that in the book as well. Thought someone should know, so that they can look into it, if they have not investigated this before. Another thought, if Sobel had remained in command in 1944, he would be dead. Look what happens to his replacement, 1st Lt Thomas Meehan. B Davis. England 90.202.212.94 (talk) 23:30, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

National Guard

I can't find a listing for Sobel in the Official National Guard registers for 1951, 1953, or 1954.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 18:15, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

CIB

As a general comment to editors: "CIB" was used to obfuscate Combat Infantry Badge. CIB means nothing to almost all readers. Remember this is read by people from around the world, many of whom have English as a second language, and who have never been to the United States. Even native English speakers, who have lived in the United States all their lives, are unlikely to know what CIB is. But almost every person, who speaks English reasonably well, will instantly have a good idea what this is from the full name. Please do not use an acronym for the full name the first time it appears in an article. Thanks. Nick Beeson (talk) 14:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC) (I found two paragraphs with their sentences mixed. I separated the sentences into their correct separate paragraphs.)

Parachutist badge

A recent addition to the article is the graphic of "jump wings" with two combat jump devices. The article only mentions one combat jump. I'm not saying Sobel didn't jump twice, only that we haven't documented a second jump. I flagged the award with "citation needed."--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 15:53, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

That was me. There used to be no graphic. I pulled the icon off another page (per my edit note) trying to be helpful, but clearly don't know enough about the graphic. Rather than flag it, you should probably just replace it with the correct graphic since its better than being blank. Ckruschke (talk) 18:14, 5 January 2021 (UTC)Ckruschke

Done, thanks for the comment.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 22:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Extensive referencing of Ambrose

Much of the article is referenced to Stephen Ambrose, which becomes an issue due to exceptional evidence of his plagiarism and invention of “facts”. Much of his portrayal of Sobel was biased and parts incorrect. Enderwigginau (talk) 19:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)