Talk:Hermann Detzner

Article Created

Needs work, not finished. Have to move pictures over, and fix links. --Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

okay, I've taken it as far as I will take it, unless I find an obit of him. --Auntieruth55 (talk) 15:49, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

According to this "source"[1] he died in Heidelberg. --Ekki01 (talk) 16:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hermann Detzner/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Problem with dates?: Appears to be a consistent problem with 20th century dates being converted into 19th century date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cuchulin25 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Well written: Pleasure to read, as always.

Factually accurate and verifiable: Sources are rock solid. All claims are documented.

Broad: Yup.

Neutral: That his work "touched a chord in the German imagination" and such is referenced. No concerns.

Stable: Yup.

Images: Great use of relevant historical images. No copyright concerns.

Comments: A pleasure to read, as usual. I'm glad the project has you. Easily passes GA standards. :) I should state for transparency purposes that I asked Auntieruth55 a couple of questions off-wiki and she clarified and made the relevant (albeit very minor) changes to the article as I was reading it. Recognizance (talk) 22:27, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Publication dates

Jayen466 FAC comments

Auntieruth, just two more details: 

1. Are you sure the first edition of "Vier Jahre ..." was published in 1919? I can only find sources attesting to 1920 and 1921 editions.

• yes, reasonably. there is one without a date, which has the native on the cover, and the 1920 and 1921 editions have frontispiece with him. I think the initial run was very limited. I've found three copies in n.d. (which I suspect was 1919), 1920 and 1921, and they all have different oclc numbers.

• Well, I can't prove that it was 1919, so I changed the date to 1920 -- there were three printing runs made in 1921 alone, so there is certain to be a lot of copies still out there. I also added another citation. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:07, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Probably safer. I was just thinking he must have been quick about it, because he only came back in early 1919. --JN466 23:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

1. I was under the impression that there was an English translation of the book in the 1920s (we say the 2008 edition is a retranslation), but so far I've failed to find any record of it. If you have some data on it, I think we should mention it separately in his Bibliography.

• I added it now. The English version had a german title...weirdness, huh?

--JN466 20:42, 19 September 2009 (UTC)Cheers,

did you find anything else? Obit? Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

No, nothing else. (I live in England and don't have access to German libraries; one could have looked at the obit columns of the big national dailies around the time he died.) I've ordered a second-hand copy of the book by Gavin Souter though, just out of interest. :) That's the fun thing about reviewing others' work; I doubt I would ever have heard of some of these people and places otherwise. Cheers, --JN466 23:11, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

he did write something in 1919, and it made a big splash in scientific circles. Then he wrote the other for public consumption. I changed the dates etc. You live in England, well, that explains your terrific English. ;) I've looked on the big dailies, and in ancestry.com, and a couple of others, but could not find anything. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:14, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah well, you still picked me up on "gave" (not "held") the eulogy the other day, so still room for improvement. :) I've been through newspaperarchive.org and questia.com (and google news, obviously); there is nothing helpful there beyond what you found already. --JN466 23:26, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm still working on German. It's a complicated language. Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:34, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

are you interested in working on some early modern battles associated with the Cologne War? Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, might do; just drop me details on how I could help on my talk page. JN466 17:31, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Prose comments by F&f

Fowler and Fowler comments

Lead

• 1"in surveying the boundary between the German and British protectorates, he found it to be 650 metres (2,133 ft) off measurement." ("it" is slightly vague. )
• 1a "During his survey, he found the boundary between the German and British protectorates to be 650 metres (2,133 ft) off measurement." (Separate sentence. Still not entirely clear as the error is not specified. Was it longer or shorter by 650 or off to the left or right?)

I took it out now because it is questionable whether it needs to be in the lead. Will clarify it in the text.

• 2"He led at least one expedition from the Huon Peninsula north to the South Sea coast to attempt an escape to the neutral Dutch colony, and another by a mountain route to the colony." (Too early in the article; reader needs more context.)
• 2a "He led at least one expedition from the Huon Peninsula to the northern coast to attempt an escape to neutral Dutch New Guinea to the west, and another by a mountain route to the same destination."

Family

• 3 "In 1885, he (slightly ambiguous) published Praktische Darstellung der Zahnersatzkunde (A practical treatise on Mechanical Dentistry, what would be called today prosthorthodontia), which was republished in 1899, and maintained an active professional and publishing presence throughout his career." (Last clause is ambiguous, it could apply to the book as well.) What is an "active professional and publishing presence?" "he" is not entirely clear, especially this early in the article.
• 3a "In 1885, Johann Detzner published Praktische Darstellung der Zahnersatzkunde (A practical treatise on Mechanical Dentistry (now, prosthorthodontia)) . Need a different sentence or clause here.

revised and put much of this in a footnote, to prevent distraction from the subject.

Early explorations

• 4. "The coastline of the northern and eastern portions of New Guinea had been charted by navigators in the early 17th century, and the visible mountain ranges named by British admiralty navigators later in the century" (Rhythm is off.)
• 4a."The coastline of the northern and eastern portions of New Guinea had been charted by navigators early in the 17th century, and the visible mountain ranges named by British admiralty navigators later in the same century.

• 5. "Most German surveying efforts had focused on coastal regions and river basins, where Germans had established plantations." (where references back weakly)
• 5a. Either "Most German surveying efforts had focused on coastal areas and river basins, regions where Germans had established plantations." or say (with slightly altered meaning) something like "German had focused most surveying efforts on the coastal and river basins regions of their established plantations."

• 6. "Since then, Papuan gold prospectors had crossed into German territory which, from the German perspective, made the accuracy of the border essential" (Not clear. If the boundary had been established, why was "accuracy essential?" Had the boundary been only broadly established?

yes, and it since the interior had not been mapped, the boundary seemed imprecise.

• 7. "Detzner seemed to be the right man for the job" (This might be seen as POV, redundant or vague. Was it in the source? If so, please consider combining with the next sentence.)

done

Adventures in New Guinea

• 8. "On 18 January 1914, Detzner traveled to Rabaul on the Island of New Pomerania (now the island of New Britain). (Is repetition of "island" needed?)
• 8a. "On 18 January 1914, Detzner traveled to Rabaul on the Island of New Pomerania (now New Britain).

actually, don't need any of them.

• 9. In February, he began his expedition into Kaiser-Wilhelmsland on the island of New Guinea.
• 9a. In February, he began his expedition into Kaiser-Wilhelmsland. (We already know were are in New Guinea.)

done

• 10. "The further west he traveled, the greater the deviation of the border markers."
• 10a. Either "... parallel to the south; the further west the location, the greater the deviation of the border markers." or "The further west he traveled, the greater he found the deviation of the border markers."

• 11. Commonwealth or British Commonwealth should be linked.

done

• 12. "At the beginning of October, still unaware of the state of war that existed between his country and the Commonwealth, Detzner started to hike toward a temporary camp, expecting to find there his second in command, a non-commissioned officer named Konrad." (Nice rhythm, however, "started," "hike" might be too informal for an encyclopedia.)

I like it. It was a hike, not a ramble, a wander, march, etc. The marching came later.

• 12a. "At the beginning of October, still unaware of the state of war that now existed between his country and the Commonwealth, Detzner commenced trekking toward a temporary camp, expecting to find there his second in command, a non-commissioned officer named Konrad. (added a "now" to help the reader out)

• 13. "Instead, a messenger arrived from Konrad, with a note from the Australian commander that Konrad had found in the hand of a dead native;" (Slightly convoluted.)
• 13a. "Instead he was met by a messenger sent by Konrad and handed a note that Konrad had found in the hand of a dead native;"

• 14. "the note informed him of the state of war between Germany and Great Britain, and advised him to surrender."
• 14a. "the note, written by the Australian commander, informed him of the state of war between Germany and Great Britain, and advised him to surrender."

• 15. "Detzner was horrified to discover, he wrote later, ..."
• 15a. "Detzner was horrified to discover, he later wrote, ..." (easier for the reader)

More later, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 11:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

thanks. made changes, or adaptions of your suggestions.Auntieruth55 (talk) 14:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

New Guinea from 1884–1919. The Netherlands controlled the western half of New Guinea and the territory remained neutral during World War I. Germany controlled the north-eastern part, which was invaded by the Australians at the outbreak of the war. Britain controlled the south-eastern part. The boundary between Papua (British protectorate) and Kaiser-Wilhelmsland (German protectorate) was in question.

The measurement error Detzner found was as follows: The southern border of Kaiser-Wilhelmsland near the east coast was defined by the 8th parallel south (see http://www.peter-hug.ch/lexikon/kaiserwilhelmsland and http://www.retrobibliothek.de/retrobib/seite.html?id=111838 for old encyclopedia articles). Detzner found that the marked border was further south than the 8th parallel south, thus running into Papua and favouring the Germans. Incidentally, given this info, I believe our map should show the south border of Kaiser-Wilhelmsland as a horizontal line near the east coast, rather than as a sloping line. The two linked encyclopedia article give a fairly precise description of how the border was defined, and at which point it departed from the 8th parallel south. JN466 16:10, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

So maybe the map should be fixed, or??? Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:30, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

How does this one look?

Thanks. I don't think we'd have a reason to mark any area blue ... but the overall shape of the German territory, including the blue area, is probably closer to what it should be. We have a reasonable map of Kaiser-Wilhelmsland in another graphic (shown below)

File:Map-Kaiser-Wilhelms-Land-und-Bismarck-Archipel.png

I might have a go at the graphic later tonight to better match the shape of the territory. JN466 20:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

sounds good. Remember the kerfluffel about the maps on the unification page, though. It will have to be in English. Auntieruth55 (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I've updated File:New Guinea (1884-1919).png map in Commons so our line drawing better matches the shape of the territory on the more professionally drawn map at File:Map-Kaiser-Wilhelms-Land-und-Bismarck-Archipel.png, and I've dropped File:New Guinea (1884-1919).png back into this article. I think the border is right now. (You may not see the difference immediately if your computer still has the old graphic version in its cache.) --JN466 23:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

More comments

Here are the remainder of my FAC-related comments. Please feel free to collapse them.

Four years in the unexplored interior of New Guinea

• 16. "a formidable jungle force" (I am assuming this is sourced and not our addition?)

yes, citation added

• 17. "At the Sattelberg Mission, he sought assistance from the present director, Christian Keyser, and another missionary, Otto Thiele." (Do you really need "present?" Its many meanings confuse the reader.)
• nope.
• 18. "Nearby villagers in the Borrum valley housed Detzner and his remaining men, which relieved the missionaries of direct responsibility for him." (Change "which" to "and?")

• , relieving

• 19. "There he established a base camp from which he could mount his expeditions."
• 19a. "Among them he established a base camp from which he could mount his expeditions."

• done

• 20. "It was relatively secure for him, and inaccessible for the Australians"
• 20a. "The camp was relatively secure ..."

• The valley was relatively secure for him, and inaccessible for the Australians, but if they ventured too close to his base, Detzner and his men would retreat...

• 21. "These were rugged and remote locations, accessible to Detzner could manage with the help of native guides"
• 21a. "These were rugged and remote locations, accessible to Detzner who could manage with the help of native guides"

• These were rugged and remote locations, accessible to Detzner, who had the help of native guides, but which the Australians, who usually traveled in larger patrols, could not penetrate

Imperial flag in the jungle

• 22. "Reportedly, he recruited the indigenous population to help him, but he apparently made little effort to hide: he flew the German flag in villages throughout the bush, and marched his command through the jungle, loudly singing such patriotic German songs as "Watch on the Rhine" (Wacht am Rhein) and such popular, sentimental songs as "The Linden Tree" (Der Lindenbaum)."
• 22a. "Reportedly, he also recruited the indigenous population to help him, but apparently made little effort to hide: he flew the German flag in villages throughout the bush, and marched his command through the jungle, loudly singing such patriotic German songs as "Watch on the Rhine" (Wacht am Rhein) and such popular sentimental ones as "The Linden Tree" (Der Lindenbaum)."

Escape attempts

• 23. "traveling in two canoes."
• 23a "paddling two canoes."

• I'm not sure they were paddling, or if the natives were paddling.

• 24. "The ship blocked any further travel, and ended the party's notions of a water escape to Dutch Guinea."
• 24a. "The ship blocked any further travel, and ended any notions they had of a water escape to Dutch Guinea."

Book and honours

• 25. "The press compared him to the successful commander in German East Africa, Major General Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck, who tied down British forces in Africa for the duration of the war."
• 25a. "The press likened him to the successful German commander in German East Africa, Major General Paul Emil von Lettow-Vorbeck, who had tied down British forces in Africa for the duration of the war."

• done

• 26. "In the 1920s, in addition to several articles and two maps of New Guinea, Detzner subsequently published a memoir of his adventures in the Niger valley—In the land of the Dju-Dju: travel experiences in the eastern watershed of the Niger—in 1923, but it did not achieve the level of popularity of his previous work."
• 26a. "In the 1920s, in addition to several articles and two maps of New Guinea, Detzner published a memoir of his adventures in the Niger valley—In the land of the Dju-Dju: travel experiences in the eastern watershed of the Niger—but it did not achieve the level of popularity of his previous work.

• 27. "At all times," he wrote, "we [Detzner and Klink] were thought we would end in the stew pot, and then in the insatiable bellies of the Papuans."
• 27a. "At all times," he wrote, "we [Detzner and Klink] were thinking we would end in the stew pot, and then in the insatiable bellies of the Papuans."[31]

• 28. "Detzner claimed that the natives of New Guinea had opposed Australian domination, resisted a military recruitment that amounted to slavery, that even the English plantation holders wished to remain independent of Australia, and the natives were collecting money to build a war memorial for the Germans"
• 28a. "Detzner claimed that the natives of New Guinea had opposed Australian domination and resisted a military recruitment that amounted to slavery, that even the English plantation holders wished to remain independent of Australia, and that the natives were collecting money to build a war memorial for the Germans."

• all done.

Controversy

• 29. "In 1919, an angry Australian wrote anonymously to the editor of The Argus, a Victorian newspaper, responding to a locally published article on Detzner's Berlin speech to the Geographical Society, what he termed as Detzner's lies." (Can't really say "Victorian" (unless some special meaning is implied). Victorian age ended in 1901.)
• 29a. In 1919, after an account of Detzner's speech in Berlin to the Geographical Society was published in Australia, an angry Australian reader wrote anonymously to the editor of The Argus, a Melbourne newspaper, and described what he claimed were Detzner's lies.

• 30. "Problematically, Detzner had no documentation of his findings."
• 30a "More problematically, Detzner had no documentation of his findings."

• 31. "which, for a mapmaker and a surveyor, needed explanation."
• 31a. "which, for a mapmaker and a surveyor, needed to be explained."

• 32. "This coincides with one of Detzner's narrow escapes from Australian patrols in 1915"
• 32a. "This coincided with one of Detzner's narrow escapes from Australian patrols in 1915"

• ?

• 33. The Australians had found a box of Detzner's equipment where the missionary Johann Flierl's oldest son, Wilhelm, kept his small canoe
• 33a. The Australians had found a box of Detzner's equipment in the location where the missionary Johann Flierl's oldest son, Wilhelm, had kept (or stored) his small canoe.

• done

• 34. This coincides with one of Detzner's narrow escapes from Australian patrols in 1915 and with the statement of the angry Australian correspondent to the Argus, who inadvertently corroborated the story in 1919.
• 34a. This event coincided with one of Detzner's narrow escapes from Australian patrols in 1915 and was inadvertently corroborated in 1919 by the angry letter to The Arguss editor.

• done

• 35. he had reportedly wasted away to 40 kilograms (88 lb) while
• 35a. he had reportedly wasted away to a mere 40 kilograms (88 lb) while

• done

• 36. but this weight loss also may have been due to his debilitating illness in 1917
• 36a. but this weight loss may also have been due to his debilitating illness in 1917

• done

Legacy

• 37 confused later scholars, many of whom remained unaware of the controversy surrounding his book
• 37a. misled later scholars, many of whom remained unaware of the controversy surrounding his book

• 38. has continued to appear as a minor point in studies on New Guinea ("minor point in the studies?" I find this confusing.)

• Since the mid–1970s, references to Four Years Among the Cannibals has continued to appear in studies on New Guinea.

• 39. No doubt the Australians could have made a broadly-organized attempt to capture him, and probably would have succeeded, but they did not make the effort; they preferred instead the more convenient "shoot-on-sight" method.
• 39a. No doubt the Australians could have made a more broadly organized attempt to capture him, and probably would have succeeded, but they did not make the effort; they preferred instead the more convenient "shoot-at-sight" method.

I enjoyed reading the article. All the best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:04, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for your help! And your useful comments. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:04, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Matu

Ruth, could you have a look at the wikilink for Matu in this sentence:

He also described the presence of an [[Unserdeutsch language|indigenous variation of German]], called ''Unserdeutsch'' (our German), in several Guinean dialects, particularly [[Tok Pisin]] and the dialect spoken by the [[Matu, Sarawak|Matu]].<ref>Küttelwesch, 2006; Suzanne Romaine, "Grammaticalization of the Proximative in Tok Pisin." ''Language,'' vol. 75, No. 2 (June 1999), pp. 322–346, p. 328. ''Unserdeutsch'' (''our German'') refers to the Creole—German language developed at the orphanages in Herbertshöhe and Rabaul.</ref>

It does not seem to make sense, leading to an article on a location in Borneo. And does Romaine specifically mention Detzner as having described these creoles? Küttelwelsch appears to mention Unserdeutsch just in passing, rather than talking about Detzner having described it. JN466 01:16, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Detzner mentions "unser deutsch" in his book, and in the 1919 article, although I don't remember if he called it "unser Deutsch" of if he just commented that people (natives) often used German words. Auntieruth55 (talk) 19:06, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

WWII, etc

This barely mentions the 1930s, and doesn't mention the Nazi era, WWII, or 1940s at all. What happened during this long time frame and how'd this get to FA with this situation? PumpkinSky talk 00:09, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

The article says that Detzner withdrew from public life by the early 1930s. There are a couple of sentences referring to his later life but they suggest that he didn't do anything especially notable during this period. Do you have anything in mind that ought to be added? Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:00, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Never heard of the guy before, but it stuck me that he had to have done something during all that time: farmer, banker, whatever.PumpkinSky talk 12:34, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Question - map image

A quick question about one of the images accompanying this excellent article. In the map showing the colonial division of New Guinea into Dutch, British, and German areas, the caption indicates that the border between the British and German areas was unclear and says to "see the area in blue." However, at least on my screen, I'm not seeing any area in blue. Does the caption perhaps refer to a different version of the map? Thanks, Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:59, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

It refers to File:New Guinea (1884-1919) w contested boundary.png, with a slightly older different version here: File:New Guinea 1884-1919 w contested boundary.png. The image was added in lieu of the previous (and current) File:New Guinea (1884-1919).png and the caption changed in this sequence of edits. The image change was reverted, but the now inappropriate caption was left as it was, in this edit. The edit summary revert to original file, now updated does not clearly explain what the issue was, but there are other, more subtle changes to the boundary than having to do with the blue area (and an unexplained white rectangle of 2×3 pixels).  --Lambiam 11:01, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

Military Commission

This statement under 'Family' is misleading; 'Hermann Detzner was trained as a topographer, surveyor, and an engineer, and received his promotion to Fahnrich in the 6 Infantry Regiment (Prussia), 2nd Pioneer Battalion, in February 1902.'

The 6th Infantry Regiment was part of 10th_Division_(German_Empire). The 2nd Pioneer Battalion was a completely separate unit that were corps level troops for II Corps (German Empire). As a trained engineer it seems far more likely Detzner would have been commissioned into the pioneers. Yorkist (talk) 12:37, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Note, all dates are 1800's

Has anyone noticed that all of dates are in the 1800's? Most of the dates should be 1900's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.81.16 (talk) 19:07, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

That was vandalism; have a look at the page history. --Ekki01 (talk) 19:29, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

wonder what happened to him during WW2?

. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.100.107.230 (talk) 19:58, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Nachtigal medal

Actually, Detzner did receive the Nachtigal medal from the Gesellschaft für Erdkunde in 1923. According to Schulte-Varendorff 2014 (p.105), he seems to have claimed to have received the version in gold while in fact it was iron (so the lowest instead of the highest level), but its not completely false. See their journal Zeitschrift der Gesellschaft für Erdkunde zu Berlin 1923, page 158 (online here, but access is restricted). But did he also lie about the year? Axolotl Nr.733 (talk) 22:57, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Wrong death date?

The German version lists 11. Dec 1970 as day of his death (not 1. Dec. 1970) and that since 2013 where someone investigated it (see comments section there). Shouldn't we fix this here and in all other languages too? Or is the German version (anonymous editor) not trustworthy enough? --192.130.252.39 (talk) 22:48, 9 June 2017 (UTC)