Talk:Herut

Arbitrary heading

The two Herut's refer to different political parties that existed at different times. The original Herut merged into Likud - it never disentagled itself though several individuals who left Likud years later took the name Herut. Certainly those Herutniks who are still in Likud would disagree with the notion that the two Heruts are the same or even part of a continuity. General Idea 07:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

There are no Herutniks still in Likud. The Herut party led by Benny Begin that split off from Likud would never have been able to legally use the name Herut if that party still existed within the Likud.--Benny K 19:39, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

(a) Herut doesn't exist within Likud because it was merged into a unitary party alongside all the other factions.

(b) They called themselves "Herut - The National Movement" as just "Herut" is still part of Likud.

Number 57 21:46, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

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about the letter and einstein

einstein was only hated israel and become anti zionist for a short period but shortly after the establish of israel he come back to be zionist again. "On April 17, 1955, while working on a speech he was preparing to commemorate Israel's seventh anniversary, Einstein suffered an abdominal aortic aneurysm and experienced internal bleeding."http://www.biography.com/people/albert-einstein-9285408#final-ye — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.246.130.157 (talk) 23:11, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

old herut and the modern herut

a lot of people linked likud to the old herut is different than the modern herut party which consider to be more moderate and not the fanatic extreme right wing like old herut "The victory, Begin claimed, had done away with Herut's "extreme right-wing image”" https://books.google.com/books?id=SCPFYf9F_5gC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=herut+radical+right+wing&source=bl&ots=bkiVJCx_S- i edit.

the herut is not like the likud of today

""As a party, Herut, was far right. In the center-right coalition, it was pro-west, antisocialist, anti-labor, favoring a hard-line policy toward the Arab states and retention of much of the territories taken in the six-day war, a shift from that of the Israel Labor Party’s positive neutralist." http://www.e-ir.info/2012/01/27/likud-a-balance-of-historic-ideology-and-reality/

• Please stop inserting this poorly-written text into the article; it doesn't make much sense, and I really don't understand the point of it. Also, changing the date of dissolution from 1988 to 1973 was completely incorrect. Number 57 20:08, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

the herut can not be the major party

i looked in the wiki article of gahal and it said "Gahal (Hebrew: גח"ל‎, an acronym for Gush Herut-Liberalim (Hebrew: גוש חרות-ליברלים), lit. Herut-Liberals Bloc) was the major right-wing political faction in Israel led by Menachem Begin from its founding in 1965 until it merged into Likud in 1973." so it can not be that the herut and the gahal both were the major parties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcohen45 (talk • contribs) 10:38, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

It does not say Gahal was a party, it says it was a faction. This is quite different. But to pacify you, I have amended it to political alliance. Number 57 10:40, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

gahal was a party this time you wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Israel . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcohen45 (talk • contribs) 10:48, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

Its inclusion on that list does not mean it is a political party (the list includes numerous alliances for the sake of simplicity, e.g. the Religious Torah Front, United Religious Front etc). See reliable sources like this, this, this etc. that state Gahal was an alliance. Number 57 11:05, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

7 sources that claim the herut moderated

The Government and Politics of Israel by don peretz page 108 " "The formation of the Gahal bloc in 1965 greatly helped to legitimize Herut. This fusion of General Zionism, the Liberals, and Herut moderated some of the vehement Herut rhetoric and made the new bloc more acceptable" the book Comparative Jewish Politics ...: Conflict and consensus in Jewish political life page 163 "n addition, Herut began to moderate its" militant political style, a trend which became increasingly salient as some of the new parties" this site https://arielzellman.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/interview-with-yisrael-harel/ said " " however, the Revisionists political party, Herut, substantially moderated its positions over time in an effort to enter the political mainstream, including a softening of its rhetoric regarding the Hashemite monarchy." "in fact tacitly abandoned the idea of the “two banks" of the Jordan River" https://books.google.com/books?id=DxiI1eVj1wEC&pg=PA20&lpg=PA20&dq=in+fact+tacitly+abandoned+the+idea+of+the+%E2%80%9Ctwo+banks%22+of+the+Jordan+River%22&source=bl&ots=OiklN2_kPo&sig=gyE_xR2bCDMH8YIXTWlLfy2lakM&hl=iw&sa=X&ei=DFNnVbXUJ4b0Ut2EgagB&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=in%20fact%20tacitly%20abandoned%20the%20idea%20of%20the%20%E2%80%9Ctwo%20banks%22%20of%20the%20Jordan%20River%22&f=false "The Herut Party has moderated considerably over the years, but it still represents the political right wing of Zionism" https://books.google.com/books?id=pAkE0GkHCoEC&pg=PA395&lpg=PA395&dq=herut+Party+has+moderated+considerably+over+the+years,+but+it+still+represents+the+political+right+wing+of+Zionism&source=bl&ots=bX5gvlIVWc&sig=XWeYIV-3kNCULuGKp4KW4xaOWUI&hl=iw&sa=X&ei=PVNnVdybE8XSUZqmgPAJ&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=herut%20Party%20has%20moderated%20considerably%20over%20the%20years%2C%20but%20it%20still%20represents%20the%20political%20right%20wing%20of%20Zionism&f=false "First, beginning in the mid-1950s, Herut began to moderate" some of its policy stances, advocating market liberalism" https://books.google.com/books?id=d9pL_giWDs4C&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=First,+beginning+in+the+mid-1950s,+Herut+began+to+moderate%22+some+of+its+policy+stances,+advocating+market+liberalism&source=bl&ots=Y9xhv-XORL&sig=BR42wwcCMzyYK4mpR5G9DJvXMb4&hl=iw&sa=X&ei=glNnVabREoutU4WwgNgO&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=First%2C%20beginning%20in%20the%20mid-1950s%2C%20Herut%20began%20to%20moderate%22%20some%20of%20its%20policy%20stances%2C%20advocating%20market%20liberalism&f=false and the last source ", the Herut party abandoned the Greater Israel philosophy, which had served as its main ideological pillar for decades" https://books.google.com/books?id=5mGv-rfsKJoC&pg=PA108&dq=the+Herut+party+abandoned+the+Greater+Israel+philosophy,+which+had+served+as+its&hl=iw&sa=X&ei=r1NnVZ7DLYvYU5P-geAM&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20Herut%20party%20abandoned%20the%20Greater%20Israel%20philosophy%2C%20which%20had%20served%20as%20its&f=false 7 reliable sources so before you undo it check this sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gffgdhfg (talk • contribs) 17:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Er, wow. Number 57 has been blocking (sock, apparently), has been altering protection on the article and also editing it. No comment on the merits of the above but that alone doesn't look great. - Sitush (talk) 21:23, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sitush: Check the page history. It has been the target of a number of socks over the past fortnight (Orcohen45 (talk · contribs), Morbenmoshe (talk · contribs), 80.246.133.64 (talk · contribs) etc). Only after it became obvious that this was going on did I actually block an editor and protect the page (I did not block Orcohen45 or Morbenmoshe). My only edits (recently) have been to revert the socks or correct false information they were adding to it – my last edit prior to this mess was in January. Number 57 21:28, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Our messages have crossed, sorry. I could see some socking but it still seemed odd. I must be misreading something. Are the above sources actually unreliable or misrepresented? - Sitush (talk) 21:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Some of the sources that are linked above are university presses, so they'd meet our reliability criteria. - Sitush (talk) 21:38, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if they are reliable, I haven't looked at them yet. However, I suspect they are probably legit – it is fairly universally accepted that Herut did moderate itself over the years. However, I removed the text because it was added by a blatant sock.

If this had been brought up legitimately, my question would have been why this is relevant to the lede – the party's moderation is discussed in later sections. Number 57 21:41, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Reverting socks just because they are socks is dodgy, especially when they are coming up with sources such as the above. If the small amount of info about "criticism" in the body is valid then the notion of moderation is actually a part of that, with a different emphasis - so they probably need to be in the body. Furthermore, the lead doesn't seem to do justice to the body anyway, emphasising as it does "right-wing" aspect in a manner that might be perceived as derogatory if not offset by the valid moderation claim. - Sitush (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The socks have been reverted by multiple editors. Should we really leave their edits to stand?

But anyway, I don't see the issue with "right-wing" – even when it moderated, it was still a right-wing party, just less extreme. Why are you assuming "right-wing" is derogatory? I could understand if it was described as "far-right", but not just "right-wing". Number 57 21:53, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

If the edits are correct in terms of verifiability etc and are not repetition then either they should stand or be reworded. They certainly should not be expunged entirely. I don't see multiple editors discussing the matter on this page, and it is easy to revert. We all know that Israel, like India, can be a controversial subject area, so it is best to try to stick to the best of practices. You seem to agree that they moderated: that is an entirely valid point to make in the lead section. - Sitush (talk) 21:57, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Currently, the Lead states: "it became more moderate from 1951." There are two problems with this statement: it does not appear to summarise anything in the article; it is not cited to any source.     ←   ZScarpia   14:30, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree. I'll remove this and other similarly unsourced material form the lead. JungerMan Chips Ahoy! (talk) 03:38, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Struck comment by JungerMan Chips Ahoy!, a blocked and banned sockpuppet. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NoCal100/Archive § 06 May 2020 and Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/NoCal100 for details. — Newslinger talk 17:08, 14 May 2020 (UTC)