Talk:Hinduism in Canada

I've removed this statement since it violates NPOV and reads like promotional material. Also, the sources used are not reliable and in the last instance we do not reference wikipedia articles as a source for other wikipedia articles. :

Recently, the Canadian Hindu population has become more politically active, spearheaded primarily by the Hindu Conference of Canada . This organization is the largest and most influential Hindu political and media lobby group in Canada , and has represented the community in taking stands against terrorism, endorsing political parties, and highlighting human rights violations by Islamic terrorists in Pakistan and Kashmir .

Reggie Perrin (talk) 02:26, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

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Attacks on Hindus section

Some entries such as

1. 2) In 2018, the Montreal-based production house “Art of Where' advertised yoga-capris carrying images of Hindu deity Lord Ganesh. Rajan Zed, who is president of Universal Society of Hinduism called this highly inappropriate as it hurts Hindus. He also urged "Art of Where" to offer a formal apology
2. 4) In 2022, the film, Kaali, made by Leena Manimekalai, was shown at the Aga Khan Museum in Toronto as part of a multimedia storytelling project, Under the Tent. The community was upset over the poster depicting Goddess Kali smoking a cigarette. High Commission of India to Canada raised objection over the disrespectful portrayal of Goddess. The Aga Khan Museum issued apology afterwards.
3. 9) In January 2023, the New Brunswick legislature rejected a requested made by Rajan Zed to recite Hindu prayer at the opening of assembly citing that the Christian prayer is a 'well-established practice' and there is no intention to deviate from it. Several Hindu community and temple organizations' members expressed displeasure over exclusionary practices

They don't belong in the article in my opinion. Most people would reasonably assume that an attack on a religious group in a country where freedom of speech and religion are paramount ideals, would be physical attacks on adherents of the faith based solely on their religious identity, or on their religious institutions, or egregious public displays of generalizations villifying the entire community. The above entries, while they may be percieved as unpalatable by some, don't fit in any of the criteria listed. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 02:20, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

I completely agree. There is a difference between things that the Hindu community does not like, and attacks on the community. I have restored the removal of the first two items, and removed the third item myself. The editor who has been restoring these items [1] is incorrect to call these removals "vandalism". As for the editor's unsourced claim that these are "edits which go against the collective voice of the Canadian Hindu society", this is Wikipedia's article, we report what reliable sources say, and we edit by consensus. Meters (talk) 18:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

These are attacks on Hindu community because the perpetrators themselves apologized for hurting the sentiments of the community (in case of Aga Khan Museum). Outsiders cannot and should not try to define what constitutes an attack on Hindus and what does not when the Canadian Hindu community and the perpetrators have already resolved the issue with mutual respect. Let's make Wikipedia an inclusive platform that represents the voice of all communities including polytheistic pagans like Hindus, and let's not suppress their voice with the preconceived biases we hold against them. JaleRosetta (talk) 05:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

"Most people would reasonably assume that an attack on a religious group in a country where freedom of speech and religion are paramount ideals, would be physical attacks on adherents of the faith based solely on their religious identity, or on their religious institutions, or egregious public displays of generalizations villifying the entire community."

Assumptions should always be avoided without concrete facts backing the assumption since no country is supreme paradise of human rights and dignity of life including the western countries. Such an assumption is based on the colonial xenophobic understanding of the world that western countries cannot commit anything wrong rather looking to civilize the world. Attacks do not necessarily mean physical attacks, these can include psychological, emotional and mental attacks based on the religious identity of Hindus.

You're deliberately trying to brush away the perspective of victims i.e. Hindus which is not good. Although, I have moved the incidents in a separate section due to your highly restricted understanding of the term "attack". JaleRosetta (talk) 04:57, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Well I do agree with a lot of what you're saying but we also have to consider the fact that inundating the article with just one particular topic would come at the detriment of the article's presentability and mess with the due proportionality of its sections. Surely we can't list every single incident the Hindu community is affronted by, right?. I think it's best to only include incidents which involve a violent element to it such as pyhsical attacks on adherents of the faith, defacement of Hindu places of worship, public displays that make disparaging generalizations about Hindus that have the potential to engender violence or hatred (in this case, this would apply to the Hindu community not the Hindu faith). Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:09, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Also if you're up to it, you can create an article specifically about attacks on the Hindu community in Canada and link it on this article. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:15, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

If the number of incidents rise to an exponential level as the trend suggests, I would surely take your suggestion into consideration. JaleRosetta (talk) 18:51, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

JaleRosetta Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:46, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

Hatred and discrimination is the first step of the process that eventually manifests into violent attacks. I don't agree that such incidents of discrimination should be deliberately deleted by downplaying the deep impact of them on Hindu community. It amounts to considering Hindus as lesser human beings unworthy of respect and dignity which I'm sure you don't believe being a good person yourself. Hopefully, you'll change your perspective to be more inclusive and empathetic to the Canadian Hindu community. JaleRosetta (talk) 18:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

JaleRosetta please see-[2] and [3].

However, Brampton Mayor Patrick Brown, was quick to clarify, saying: “Following yesterday’s reports of vandalism of the recently unveiled Shri Bhagavad Gita Park, we took swift action to investigate further. We learned that the reported blank sign was installed by the builder as a placeholder until the permanent Shri Bhagavad Gita Park sign can be replaced tomorrow.”

Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:07, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

In all honesty, I do find it hard to believe that some yoga pants with Lord Ganesha's images on it or a inconsiderate poster of a goddess would have a "deep impact" on the Hindu community. If this disagreement persists, we may need to seek consensus through a third opinion or a RFC. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 23:27, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Also, this entry In February 2023, an Indo-Canadian radio host, and a vocal critic of the Sikh seperatist movement, was attacked by Khalistani Sikhs who supported Deep Sidhu. According to the victim, the assailants pulled a gun on him, and hit him on the head with a beer bottle. The incident was promptly condemned by Brampton mayor, Patrick Brown, who called for a police investigation. needs to be deleted as well. I added it, and it was a mistake because his religious identity was not reported as being the primary motive for the attack, rather it was his outspokeness against the Khalistan movement. A violent attack on Hindu does not necessarily belong on this article, unless it is sufficiently reported that a motivating factor or impetus for the attack was the religious affiliation of the victim. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 00:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

‎Amazingserendipity The content you removed is well sourced. There is no reason to remove them and your inconsistent removal of incidents is also a cause of concern. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

From India Today

The mayor was asked by the Hindu diaspora to remove hateful banners against Hindus from all over the city that read “Sikh Infants burnt alive by Hindu Mobs".

From The Print, considered a highly reliable source

The mayor was asked by the Hindu diaspora to remove hateful banners against Hindus from all over the city that read “Sikh Infants burnt alive by Hindu Mobs,” TAG TV reported.

This entry- In 2022, controversial banners saying "Sikh Infants burnt alive by Hindu Mobs" appeared throughout Brampton which Deepak Anand, MPP Mississauga-Malton condemned. needs to be restored. This is 100% an attack on a community as it makes disparaging and egregious generalizations depicting an entire community as baby killing mobs. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 04:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

There's no inconsistent removals. If I could find a Canadian source corroborating information claimed here, then I left it untouched. If the only source was an Indian newspaper that in the article itself acknowledged that the claims they were making about alleged perpetrators are unsubstantiated I removed it.

Sikh infants were burnt alive in 1984 by Hindu Mobs.

From the Indian Express [4]

"Unwell after her delivery on October 31, 1984, Charanjit Kaur, in her twenties then, hadn’t even spent much time with her newborn twins (a boy and a girl). Now 59, she still remembers stifled cries of her newborns who were snatched from her sister-in-law’s hands, tossed in fire and burnt alive by a mob in front of their residence in Sultanpuri area of Delhi, two days later on November 2. The family lost seven members, including two newborns."

From the Washington Post [5]

"...rampaging mobs of Hindus vowing revenge for the assassination of Indira Gandhi burned scores of Sikh-owned stores and houses here today as troops were called out in the capital and elsewhere in India."

"...Meanwhile, gangs of Hindus roamed through New Delhi and adjacent old Delhi attacking Sikh temples, looting and burning Sikh homes and businesses, and pulling terrified Sikhs from cars and buses and beating them before setting fire to the vehicles."

"Throughout New Delhi, Sikhs vanished from sight as truckloads of Hindu youths brandishing wooden staves and other crude weapons drove through nearly deserted streets, chanting Hindu nationalist slogans and searching for Sikhs identifiable by their turbans and unshorn hair. Not far from the Parliament building, one Sikh ran crying in terror as he was pursued by a mob of shouting Hindus with lathis, or cane batons commonly used by police. Some Hindus carried knives or spears as they looked for Sikhs."

""The police are watching them the Hindus and not doing anything. The mob is roaming without any hitch and can do whatever they want," said Burbachan Singh, a Sikh taxi driver who said his house in Karol Bagh was stoned earlier in the day.

Nearby, at an Indian Oil Co. office building that houses the library of noted Sikh poet Bhai Vir Singh, a fire that police said was set by an anti-Sikh mob raged out of control as Hindu youths spoke openly of vengeance for Gandhi's death."

"You can't stop the sentiments of the people who are hurt by the murder of our prime minister. The fire is bad, but the killing of an innocent woman is bad too. The united Hindu people retaliate," said R.P. Sharma, a 27-year-old Hindu accountant."

"When a mob of about 4,000 Hindus gathered outside the Rakab Ganj Sikh Temple near the Parliament building this morning and began stoning it, Sikhs inside opened fire until the police responded with about five rounds of rifle fire. The body of one victim, believed to be a Sikh, was set afire just outside the temple."

There is no generalization in the poster remembering and stating facts about the 1984 anti-Sikh Pogroms. Would you object to a poster stating that German mobs murdered Jewish children during Kristallnacht? Amazingserendipity (talk) 05:05, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I know you are a new user here, but there is no such Wiki policy that states that a source cannot be used solely if it's Indian in origin. Sure some Indian sources such as OpIndia are considered deprecated and unreliable, while others like The Wire or Hindustan Times are considered reliable- a helpful page that lists some frequently used sources and their corresponding reliability. The sources have called them "hateful", so we can as well.

There is no generalization in the poster remembering and stating facts about the 1984 anti-Sikh Pogroms. Would you object to a poster stating that German mobs murdered Jewish children during Kristallnacht? Let's not digress from the crux of the argument and turn it into a long winded debate about the 1980's and the insurgency in Punjab; reliable sources have called these actions "hateful", most people would reasonably believe that signs of that nature on public property in a country on the opposite side of the world are clearly intended to antagonize and intimidate the Hindu community and portray them as murderers. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:18, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with Indian sources but we are discussing something that is happening in Canada. If there are no Canadian sources whether they be national or specifically Indo-Canadian discussing these happenings, then I find it fair to lend lesser credence to news publications by reporters not even in the country they are reporting on.

The Print article also claims Patrick Brown, the mayor of Brampton, is "a known politician for creating Hinduphobia and Indophobia, according to TAG TV". Anyone who knows anything about Patrick Brown would find this a ridiculous claim. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is personal friends with him and refers to him as "Patrick Bhai". To make this slanderous claim against him puts the entire article and the Print's credibility on this issue in question.

Many would deny these posters being Hinduphobic and rather instead remembering the 1984 anti-Sikh Pogroms. Bringing up these posters in a list that consists of desecration of Hindu holy sites which are obvious cases of Hinduphobia seems to be pretty unbalanced in assigning the poster as Hinduphobic. Amazingserendipity (talk) 05:28, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

I guess you do have a point regarding the claims put forth by TAG TV, in the sense that it is a poorly worded and charged statement that seems unbefitting of what reliable sources would report and I also find your first point fair enough. However, I still stand by my stance that these posters were perpetuating anti Hindu sentiments and designating them as an attack on the community seems appropriate to me. I posted these sources on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, let's see what they say. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 05:53, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Let's see what they say. Amazingserendipity (talk) 06:03, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

more on the "Attacks on Hindu Community" section

There are some POV and inappropriate additions being made. For instance [6] states that "Sikh extremists" are responsible for putting up the posters in question when the cited source does not mention who was responsible, and [7] states that "the Hindu community suspect that it is the Sikh separatists" who are responsible. Really? Unnamed members of the community? Who are they, why do they speak for the community, and why should we report someone's opinion? And "police" is a collective noun. It takes plural verbs. Meters (talk) 02:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Are we only supposed to include claims by authorities such as the police or investigative agencies? Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 02:23, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I reverted my own edit because 1) It's a relatively trivial issue not woth persuing 2) I concur that the opinions of people within a community may be skewed and uninformed and hence unsuitable for Wikipedia.

Nothing left to do here. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 02:34, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

OK Meters (talk) 02:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Reverts

Come on, this is getting ridiculous, a break in, especially when there has been almost a dozen in two years, coinciding with a dramatic uptick in other hate crimes, violent threats, and public displays of hate against the community and targeting of the same temples, which have elicited condemnation multiple times from Canadian politicians, is a fair inclusion. This is just absurd. I think we would call something like a deliberate arson attempt on a church or synagogue, regardless of how many incidents occurred, an attack, this isn't much different. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 08:24, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

And why does it not belong in the lead? Again, these incidents, particularly notable for the uptick in the past 2-3 years, have elicited condemnation from numerous prominent Canadian politicians multiple times. Southasianhistorian8 (talk) 08:26, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Not everything that happens is an "attack on the Hindu community". As I said in my summaries "simple break ins do not appear to qualify as 'attacks on the Hindu community'" and "nothing special here... just as we don't call every break in of a Catholic church an attack on the Catholic community". That section's extensive list is a bit of a coatrack, and it has had to be trimmed before.

As for your lead edit, it's better now that you have removed the comment about simple break ins, but I'm still not convinced that is lead-worth. At the least I'd prefer to see it sourced to a more neutral source than the Hindustani Times. Meters (talk) 08:51, 28 July 2024 (UTC)