Talk:Hiraab Imamate

Decline of Hiraab Imamate

@Abshir55 Please talk here. Hobyo Sultanate didn't only rule the town Hobyo but extended as far as Galgaduud all previously ruled by the Hiraab Imamate. [1] and the sources say Yusuf Ali Kenadid overpowered the Hawiye clans when he invaded Hobyo so it was already settled. [2] The point is people believe Hobyo Sultanate extended further like up to Beledweyne which is false and the decline talks about how Hiraab Imamate still existed even after taking big blows. It's neutral and fair. The page looks good but this is the decline history and you cannot go against historical facts. Ayaltimo (talk) 16:41, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

First of all, you posted a map created by a Somalinet user called James Dahl in 2007 and i have shown you maps from colonial books? How can you override that?

Second of all, the Hiraab Imamate was renamed the Benadir Region. You also saw the map for that! There is plenty more where that came from!

The Hobyo Sultanate started as a village and grew into a Darod regional zone carved out from their historical parts of Mudug and West Galgaduud. The Hiraab Imamate was a near coastal power from Ras El Hur to Warscheikh and i also showed you the evidence for that.

You can't refute this. Abshir55 (talk) 17:55, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

More evidence [[[File:Benadir Fisico Politico 1914.jpg|thumb|Benadir Fisico Politico 1914]]]

The borders didn't change even till 1930

[[[File:Benadir Region 1930.jpg|thumb|Benadir Region 1930]]]

Abshir55 (talk) 18:22, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

More Maps

[[[File:Somalia Settentrionale (Northern Somalia).jpg|thumb|Somalia Settentrionale (Northern Somalia)]]]

I am open to discussion but i must remind you i can post documents too, this Hiraab page should not be populated with sensationalist claims that have little or no proof. Abshir55 (talk) 18:36, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

The map I showed was actually from the colonial sources but this one was carved out and separated from other Sultanates. Hobyo Sultanate also consisted of Hawiye. I've already published you the source where it says Kenadiid conquered Hawiye and Hobyo Sultanate were in dispute with Zanzibar Sultanate over Warsheikh if you read Issa-Salwe (1996:34–35). Please stop distorting history based on your tribal affiliation. Hobyo Sultanate ruled large chunks of lands that were previously ruled by Hiraab Imamate and the majority of Hobyo Sultanate population were overwhelmingly Habar Gidir. Hobyo Sultanate ruled central Somalia and yes, they ruled North Mudug which consisted of Daroods but they also ruled modern-day Galmudug. This is the decline history of Hiraab. Like I said this is just history. Ayaltimo (talk) 18:48, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Clearly you're an agent of Puntland and it is a joke to debate with someone who is quoting Isse Salwe in 1996 another Majerteen!

Your own source states "The Italians proceeded to control the entire Benaadir coast, which was declared Italian Somaliland". I've just shown you several maps locating where Benaadir is.

The Hobyo Sultan came to a territory situated between Hawiye and Majerteen (i've shown you this too) and he needed foreign musketeers attesting to who always held the power in a neutral region. Brichetti's map in 1891 showed you where the clan borders were.

But you cannot digress, how can the Hobyo Sultan war over Warsheikh when the Italians already signed a treaty in Adale and Meregh (i posted this source too) in January 1889!

The Hobyo Sultan declared a protectorate in the midst of the surrounding Hiraab and Zanzibar threat himself. Particularly in the Ras El Hur area which was the limits of the Imamate (Banaadir) and the Sultanates. Zanzibar sent a contigent led by Haji Momin Aweys (this is from Brichetti's book) and the Hobyo Sultan was defeated there. This is why the Imamamte is credited with stopping the expansion of the Sultanate.

There is a letter the Sultan wrote in 1892 asking for a reload of weapons and food, his own letter states he was in Hobyo and El Hur. What more evidence do you need when it's staring at you in the face?

If you are going to base your editing on what the Hobyo Sultan said than you might aswell include the whole country as he falsely claimed it too.

The Habar Gidir were the Northern Command and their settlements were the borders of Benaadir the former Imamate.

All i am suggesting is that you can keep your inaccurate Hobyo Sultanate page but this page belongs to the Imamate and as such, it should certainly be using correct narratives as evidenced. Abshir55 (talk) 20:29, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Again, this is not about Hobyo Sultanate. The is the decline section and this source are written by westerners who studied the African history clearly stating that Kenadiid conquered the Hawiye and established the Hobyo Sultanate. [3] I don't know why you doubt this piece of history? It's very clear you're using your tribal affiliation to remove source content that you disprove and that goes against wiki guidelines. Even many generals of Kenadiid were Hawiye. Cassanelli talks about this. Have you learned about Omar Samatar's Rebellion? He was the commander of Hobyo Sultanate and he held sway over El-Dheere, Bud Bud, El Buur, Xarardheere, Mareeg, and many other Hawiye areas and most of his forces were Habar Gidir. I don't have to keep proving the historical facts. Please drop your tribal affiliation.

I can give you one advice if you want to talk about how Hiraab managed to take back Hobyo that's fine and you can add that in the decline section but don't remove other sourced content you dislike and you can mention the Hiraab resistance against Italians which sounds brilliant but please don't post too many pictures unless you're writing in big paragraphs. Thanks. Ayaltimo (talk) 21:15, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Omar Samatar did not control those territories nor did he ever have Habar Gidir soldiers. Infact there is undeniable evidence the Habar Gidir with Italian blessing took the Darod lands of the former Sultanate.

Omar Samatar was invited by the Italians to come to El Bur after the fall of the Sultanate because El Bur was the regional capital and it had an Italian residence! He only had authority over his clan. See evidence below.

Like i said, you took a biased footnote from a Majerteen with sensational claims and i posted countless evidence of primary data.

I will add a section in the page and leave your section but it will look silly if there are contradictions within the same page. Abshir55 (talk) 22:12, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I showed you more than one source that suggests Hawiye were part of Hobyo Sultanate. For more go read:

Helen Chapin Metz, Somalia: a country study, (The Division: 1993), p.10.

Lee V. Cassanelli, The shaping of Somali society: reconstructing the history of a pastoral people, 1600-1900, (University of Pennsylvania Press: 1982), p.75.

Lea, David; Rowe, Annamarie (2001). A Political Chronology of Africa. Europa Publications. p. 378.

All western sources that are backed by colonial reports how much Hobyo extended.

This is an approximate colonial map of the Horn of Africa. [4] Look I am not here to argue about Hobyo Sultanate but Hobyo Sultanate is tied with the decline of Hiraab whether you like it or not. All I said was you can add how Hiraab managed to take Hobyo back. It won't contradict anything. Ayaltimo (talk) 22:45, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

I don't understand, you are using "approximate" maps and i'm using actual maps. How is this even a debate?

I have the book by Lee Cassanelli with me, it does not mention or quote anything about the Sultanate nor the Imamate. Why are you misappropriating academic sources to fit a narrative? Even Western historians saw the Hobyo Sultanate as a breakaway of southern Majertenia! Abshir55 (talk) 00:41, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Unless you can directly quote or display those references instead of listing books with pages that doesn't correlate with what you are saying then clearly i have provided more Western sourced work that disagrees with your judgement here. Abshir55 (talk) 00:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

I didn't misquote anything I gave you a page number. My approximate maps are colonial while yours are tribal maps. How about you provide me links instead of posting pictures. Lee Cassanelli says Hobyo was the commercial center for Hiraab Imamate basically it was their most important port then it was conquered by Keenadiid. I've shown you this a thousand times but you keep peddling with your nonsense and denying he ruled Hawiye. He conquered local Hawiye. Read this again until you get the memo: [5] and this is from a credible western source that discusses historical African politics. I've given you one source where it suggests Hobyo were in dispute with Zanzibar over Warsheikh but you denied it because it was written by a Somali historian but she is a credible historian who has PhD in African history. All we seem to do is going around in circles. This is the decline history of Hiraab Imamate and Hobyo Sultanate/Geledi Sultanate is tied with it. Stop your tribal pride and stop going against history. I've given you an option to contribute but not remove something you disagree with. Ayaltimo (talk) 01:30, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Your approximate maps are approximate maps! Not colonial! Even the wording of the towns are in Somali and Somali wasn't written until the 1970s. I posted colonial maps! They are from Italian and early European sources! Does the name of Italian names e.g Alto Scebeli, Benadir etc sound tribal to you?

Not only are you relying on secondary footnotes, Cassanelli is talking about Hobyo in the 1700s when it was a prosperous town, there is no mention of any "conquest", you ignore the timeline, when German attempts to establish a presence saw them sign a treaty with the Sultan who came to Hobyo in 1884, it was clearly "situated between the territory of the Hawiye and Majerteen". It was situated on a headland, do you know what a headland is? It is an uninhabited Rock!

Like i said i will be adding a section with real sourced work that doesn't pander to a one sided narrative. Abshir55 (talk) 03:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

French Reconnaissance section

I've seen the talk page dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#French_revolution_and_Hiraab and I would like to say that Ayaltimo has been targeted numerous times by User:Ragnimo from my observation. He held an obscene standard and was adamant despite being provided a source that this was "original research" and then after being proven wrong attacked the credibility of said source.

Ayaltimo is correct the author of this book he cites is the renowned Sharif Aydurus and to state that Frenji applies to whites generally and can't be trusted as a reference to the French is quite silly as Sharif Aydurus mentions the Portuguese, Italians and English as other whites in the same book (Bughyat al-Aamaal fi Taarikh al-Sumaal)

As well, going to back to the Ferenji/Frenj term we see a translation one 1846 letter exchanged by two prominent Somalis. They discussing the possibility of the Frenchman Charles Guillain meeting the Geledi Sultan Yusuf Mahamud.

Now, O Sid-Qoullatin, do not deceive me on account of the Ferenji' [Guillain and his party], and serve as my other self. You were in Mogadishu at their arrival, while I am far away in Bardheere. Today, do not deceive me. I will wait for what you have to say. Inform yourself of their secret purposes. Fear God, your master. Search out their secrets, and write me a letter and give it to my nephew Hasan-ben-Ali ... Be sure the Ferenji do not set out [for Afgooye] before having received a letter from me ... You know the phrase do not deceive those who put their confidence in you. Now I have placed my confidence in you; don't deceive me. The briefest words and the clearest words are the best.

Your friend Haji Ibrahim

So it should stand clearly as French for the mention, Regards WanderingGeeljire (talk) 23:58, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

WanderingGeeljire Obscene standard and was adamant? Holding wiki articles free from potential "Original Research is an obscene standard? Articles should be held to a high standard.

All i asked was for him to provide a translation of the text so it could be verified and for him to prove it. WP:BURDEN "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material" That's not me targetting anyone and it wasn't unfair either. Nothing about it showed up on the Google search results, or in books about French in the Indian Occean, so i requested for someone on the Original research noticeboard to look into it. And like i explained my honest intentions in the first:

Just to be clear i have nothing against the addition if it's sourced and real. He just has to prove it

Furthermore it was an uninvolved editor Boynamedsue that asked the translating editor if "Al frenj" was could be referring to Europeans in general.

I recalled a qoute from Somalis were frenji was being used in that same fashion to refer to White/Europeans in general

The Somalis say , ninkii faralahaa Ferenji baa loo helay. " The weak man is protected by the European"[6]

Nothing silly about it.

If you disagree and believe its not OG and it was referring to the french, then just state that without trying to side with an editor in a past dispute and throwing petty accussations about targetting which is not true. You are not neutral univolved person at that point and most certaintly not assuming good faith WP:GOODFAITH. All it is bad faith posturing.

And what you showed still does not prove it. This was about french naval prescense in the 1700s during the Hiraab governance. Your qoute is from 1846 about a French explorer at a much later date during the time of Geledi. If anything it else it could prove the opposite, that the French only had prescense at a later date during the Scramble for Africa. Charles Guillain and his party was exploring it for the first time. Lastly as Dr Tahir pointed out " (Al-fernjah) is used first to refer to French people, but it is widely used later to refer to any Europeans. This book was written at 1954, The author stated on page 14-pdf that he used references and old documents, and list some of them. The quote is the words of the modern author, not someone else"

Cheers. Ragnimo (talk) 10:35, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

You're right I need to assume good faith. It's up on the page and it's not a problem then. Regards, WanderingGeeljire (talk) 11:49, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

@Ragnimo: I've found a primary source that predates Guillain of a British explorer mentioning he was referred to as "Frenji" by Somalis. My apologies I was wrong WanderingGeeljire (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

WanderingGeeljire Thats interesting. Can you show me it? You can keep the section and rename it as "European incursion" or remove it altogether if you feel like it.

Ragnimo (talk) 17:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Yeah I will rename it, it is from the royal geographic society, it's spelled feringi. There are many more good details included in the general account of the explorer.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=ZSc7AQAAIAAJ&dq/

WanderingGeeljire (talk) 17:27, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Hobyo

Abshir55 I think you don't understand how Wikipedia works. There was no other civilization ruling Hobyo besides Hiraab thus it's acceptable to add Hobyo as the successor. It's like that in many places the country becomes unruly until another powerful entity takes over and that is still considered a succession. I suggest you stop removing Hobyo Sultanate or you will be banned for your disruptive editing and stop re-writing the sources because you're actually violating the rules of Wikipedia. Ayaltimo (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Get a life man Abshir55 (talk) 23:27, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

I have better sources than you and provided key events of the Hiraab Imamate, you should be respecting my work, the Hobyo sultanate had no history of war with the Imamate, you are appropriating a renegade rebel sultan from a colonial era with a 500 year old governing state Abshir55 (talk) 23:33, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Get a life? You mean stop editing the Hiraab article? This is Wikipedia anyone can edit if you don't like it go somewhere else. Who said anything about the Hobyo Sultanate warring with Imamate? Do you have reading comprehension? Let me rephrase so you can understand. There was no civilization that ruled Hobyo other than Hiraab and Hobyo which is why in Wikipedia standards it is warranted to mention Hobyo. Also, please stop re-writing sources because this falls into vandalism. Ayaltimo (talk) 04:41, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Abshir55 please discuss changes before you remove or add anything to the article. You're being extremely disruptive and not following wiki guidelines. I have literally explained to you the standards of Wikipedia when it comes to civilizational succession. Hiraab once ruled Hobyo but it fell under Hobyo Sultanate this does not mean all of Hiraab fell under Hobyo because Italian Somaliland is showed and you can read The Shaping of Somali society by Lee Cassanelli when he talks about the decline of Hiraab Imamate. Also, please stop adding unnecessary additions that have nothing to do with Hiraab page such as Egyptian Khedive claiming the north, Jubbaland, and stop miswriting the sources. You can't edit a paragraph that is for another source. You're actually violating Wikipedia. Please refrain from making any disturbance and seek consensus first. Ayaltimo (talk) 03:12, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Geledi succession

Abshir55 Cassanelli points out that in Geledi oral history accounts, the Silcis are often viewed as "that section of the Ajuran who governed the Afgoy district". He asserts that Geledi accounts "attest to the continuity and similarity of Ajuran and Sil'is rule". Please show me any historian that states otherwise? You're using unreliable sources to misinterpret your claims without having official references that state "Geledi succeeded from Hiraab".

The Silcis center of power was in Lama Jiidle (present-day Afgooye) before being ousted by Geledi. Yes, Hawiye used to politically dominate Lower Shabelle region but what does that have to do with Hiraab Imamate during Ajuran reign? Ajuran Sultanate had various vessels which consist of different dynasties like the Madanle and Mudaffar. Please refer to this talk page and refrain from engaging in an edit war. Ayaltimo (talk) 03:44, 25 October 2021 (UTC)