The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Howdy! This popped up on my watchlist and it looks like a really high-quality article given the impressive scope of the topic. I'm going to try to give it a look-over over the next few days and see if it meets the GA criteria, and to see what needs to be touched up if not. Generalissima (talk) 19:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
For silly personal reasons, I like to go through the GA criteria in reverse order.
6A:
All images have alt-text, perfect. Going through, all are properly licensed. (Most are public domain in any case, and those that are not are all in CC or similar free licenses.) The alt text on the multiple image template was slightly mislabeled, but I corrected this. - G
The images are of good quality and placement, are relevant to the sections where they are included.
Couple nitpicks:
Anna Murray Douglass and Frederick Douglass should be wikilinked in their caption. You should also have a sentence connecting Douglass and abolitionism to Christianity in the caption, as mentions of abolitionism within the text are brief. Moreover, wouldn't Frederick Douglass himself be more recognizable as a figure? He himself was a preacher, so it would be easier to directly tie that into Christian abolitionism with a short caption.
Figures that are facing right should have their images on the left side of the page per MOS:PORTRAIT.
Got to go, but I'll try to get back to this tonight. - G
Generalissima. Awwhhh! I liked including both white and black women, but I also agree that Frederick himself is the more significant character. Do I have to pick?
I do not like the idea of adding Smith for several reasons: he is never mentioned in the text - though Latter Day Saints are mentioned under the second great awakening, but all of the various movements make no mention of any details including who their leaders were. If I get into that with one, won't I have to do them all? Then this article becomes a very long list of one name after another. It was hard to determine who to mention, since Christianity is a movement of the people, but I had to draw the line somewhere! Tell me if you feel strongly about it. I will adjust. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Jenhawk777 Ultimately down to your personal preference, but I feel that Soujourner Truth is generally seen as more connected to her religious work, as well as more of a stand-alone figure as opposed to the two Douglasses who are often spoken of as a pair. Also, still on mobile but should be able to get started on a prose review this evening when I get back home. Generalissima (talk) 21:54, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
That seems like a good explanation, but I already put her in because I figured you would have a good reason. See you later then! I will be offline for about the next six hours, but will come back then - with bells on! (That just means I'm excited.) Hah! Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Having read through it, I haven't noticed any areas where NPOV is violated. You have made a good summary of current scholarly thought on Christian history. - G
Thank you. I have tried to show the good, the bad and the ugly as it was appropriate and representative. Paradigm shifts are all noted (even if the term is not used). I tried to include some of the interesting stuff, though a lot of that's in the details that got cut. Sigh. I have a commitment to neutrality - it's even on my user page - but nobody told me that meant cutting content! Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:18, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
A: There are certainly nitpicks I could make if this were at a FA-comprehensiveness level, but for GA breadth this is excellent work. Good use of summary style to cover some very complicated and varied history. The only real quibble I have is I think the separation of Christianity form Judaism is a bit brushed over in the first section, and I think it would be important to spend a couple sentences defining Jewish Christians and what specific factors led to Christianity seeing itself as non-Jewish beyond just "doctrinal differences". It's probally also important to mention that sects like the Nazarenes and the Ebionites continued to identify as Jewish Christians for some time after the "gentilefication" of Christianity. - G
Generalissima This is amazing, thank you, but please do not hold back on anything - nitpick away! This article is important enough it should be a Featured article, and I would like to get it there, so anything at all that you know of that FA would require, please do tell me. I lack the experience you have, so anything you say will help.
Part of the difficulty in writing this article has been balancing 'A' and 'B'. I have focused more on getting the length down, so a lot of content has been distilled or removed entirely. There was at one time an entire section on Jewish Christians, then the sentence still had Ebionites and some staying Jewish for centuries, then it became what it is now. Cutting out details and summarizing as succinctly as possible, has been what I was advised to do - but that does leave many, many aspects of history without any real explanation.
What seems critically important to me doesn't always seem so to those who have peer reviewed here - and vice versa of course. I was advised to cut the Galileo affair, but I left it in because it is the beginning of the mistrust between science and religion that still exists for many. I cut Jewish Christians down because everyone knows that Judaism rejects Jesus as Messiah, so it needs less explanation.
However, I will see if I can't enhance that sentence a little - without adding too much to length. I'll do my best. And thank you for this - for all of this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I wouldn't necessarily use a direct quote from Marcus (since he doesn't seem to be a particularly notable figure, and I feel a paraphrase would work just as well in this situation). My main remaining quibble is that the "remained a Jewish sect, for centuries in some locations" in the lede is not elaborated on within the article. Generalissima (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Oh, I also meant to say Marcus is a specialist in early Christian history at Duke Divinity who is respected enough that Cambridge asked him to contribute to their official history. I don't know why we don't have a page on him - except that we generally don't of anyone at a "Divinity school". Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:35, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well, if you ever need a break from these big general overview articles, writing about notable academics and scholars of theology could be fun! :3 Generalissima (talk) 23:39, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
B: As mentioned above, very good distillation. At ~12,000 words, it is certainly a long article, but falls within the general upper-bounds of article length. I would be unsure how to shorten this beyond this point without a loss of information. - G
A: Well-organized footnote section using SFNs. Sources are in a standardized citation style, and have ISBNs and links where available. - G
B: Every paragraph (honestly, almost every sentence) has inline citations. - G
C / D: Earwig repeatedly timed out when I tried to load the page, but considering the intensity of the summary style, I feel it is unlikely to give us any suprising revelations! To check for any OR, I did a spot check of some random cites which I had access to. Most were accurate; I certainly did not see anything resembling copyvio. There were, however, some I was a little confused by. (although I might be missing context or info on these.)
52 (Davies, Horbury & Sturdy 2001, pp. 94–167) 60 pages for one sentence is a bit excessive, but it ultimately checks out; this section is describing the intense series of political and social upheavals of 1st century Judea.
I am unsure what you are seeing. # 52 is Bokenkotter 2007, p. 18. Davies, Horbury & Sturdy is # 58, and since there are two others there for an undisputed claim, I agree it is excessive and will remove it. DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
65 (de Pressensé 1870, p. 21) Source supports the text, but is this the best source for this? It's a 150 year old text by a relatively obscure theologian. For such a core concept in the understanding of Christianity's spread. Wouldn't another source that you encountered while working on Historiography of the Christianization of the Roman Empire would support a continued modern scholarly understanding of Christianity in this way?
Ah! I figured it out. Because of the change to Jewish Christians up front and the need for citations there, the numbering is now off. You are referring to #67 now.
de Pressensé is one of those classic iconic works that has remained authoritative. He is not obscure in the field of theology. The description of him at [1] says "he has placed himself in the highest rank of modern defenders of the primitive Christian faith." It seemed the right fit for the section's claim. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
246 (Acts 2:42–47.) Clever biblical cite. The Book of Acts isn't exactly a modern academic source, but I am assuming on good faith that this section is discussed in Crislip (as is typical for primary source citations in contexts like this.)
On pages 156 and 168. Do you think those need to be added? I don't have a problem removing the primary source reference if you think that would be better. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
321 (Witte 1997 pp. 29, 36.) Supports the thesis of the sentence, although page 29 is primarily talking about Aquinas's views, rather than the earlier Gregorian reforms, no?
321, 322 and 323 are all Witte! Hmm, there is definitely an unintentional ambiguity there. Inserted "Thirteenth century theologians" in hopes that clarifies. DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 23:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
425 ( Golden 2011, p. 47.) Describes Christianity spreading among the Uighur Turks during the 9th century. The way it is placed in the sentence, however, makes it seem like it's the primary source for all prior info in the paragraph, instead of Baum & Winkler. (Additionally, I don't think that "Mongol kingdoms in Central Asia" existed prior to the Mongol Empire, which you explicitly mention afterwards. Christianity among the Mongols talks about specific tribes such as the Naiman converting, but these were not kingdoms per se, and certainly not in most definitions of Central Asia.
425 is now 426. This was in the original pre-me article and I admit, I failed to properly run down its provenance. Shame on me. None of this is in Golden - at least not that I can find, so that is going, going gone. I am researching this now, and will return with something well founded and verifiable. Sorry about this. Jenhawk777 (talk) 23:18, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Jenhawk777: Thank you! I realize this is a big ask considering the sheer volume, but since my review brought up some irregularities, I would advise doing a source-review and making sure everything is backed up by the pages you're citing. Since you plan to bring this to FAC, this will make things a lot easier, since you'd be a lot more likely to pass the (at times, fairly stringent) source reviews. Generalissima (talk) 23:38, 3 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generalissima I am confident that was the only paragraph left from the original article not written or checked by me. I am unsure how it slipped past me, but I am very thankful you caught it. That is really the purpose of going through the GA process for me. You can of course opt to fail it immediately. I would understand. But I promise I have been extremely careful with my own composition, which is about 90% of the text here, and have done repeated spot checks of the rest. If there is a second problem, I will withdraw the nomination myself. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Okay, I'm assuming on good faith that this was an anomaly in that department (and I'll try to review some sources during the prose review if anything seems sketchy.)
In the Ecumenism section, you mention the WCC, but this is not defined anywhere else in the article. You also say "Roman Catholic goals are..." but don't specify if these positions from the church are a result of Vatican II, or were a goal beforehand.
I don't think you need strictly need most of the citations here, since it's all discussed in the body of the article with the same set of sources. Generally, per MOS:LEADCITE, it's best to avoid citations in the lede whenever possible.
Generally pretty well-written lede! I would find a way to mention that Christianity additionally spread to areas outside of the Roman Empire in the paragraph about its grassroots spread, since it is a common misconception that Rome was the first state to adopt it.
I'd also probably say the "general acceptance of tolerance as a policy", since not all Christian religious movements following the end of the wars of religion were tolerant to others. The end of the lede has a couple areas I feel might be clunky. Has it become the world's largest religion in contemporary times, or simply maintained this status? I would also rephrase "from West to East and from the North to the global South"; aren't the areas where Christianity growing in the East within the global south? More to come. Generalissima (talk) 05:58, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generalissima I have now removed all of the citations from the lead. I will have to follow this up with removing the unused references from the sources section, but I will have to come back and do that later. I have about 5 more minutes here right now. I added in and outside the empire - good point that one.
It just says "the development of tolerance as policy" and makes no claims as to who and how much. Hmm - would you prefer this: "the development of tolerance as a theological option" ?
Has it become the world's largest religion in contemporary times Yes indeed it has. Numerically verified by the Pew references removed from the lead.
aren't the areas where Christianity growing in the East within the global south? China and SE Asia are above the equator - the north. It's Africa that's in the global south.
It does? In all the PEW reports I have read, and the material referenced here, China is 'global East' and Africa is 'global south'. I have never seen anything else. If China is ever referred to as global south, that reference is at best a weird minority view and at worst an error in fact. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:45, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Allow me to eat my words! With some hot sauce as an extra punishment! China is in the global south according to PEW. You were right along. According to Oxford Academic, it is also in the global East. Mea culpa! Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
It now reads "Growing criticism of the Roman Catholic church and its corruption in the Late Middle Ages led to the Protestant Reformation and its related reform movements, which concluded with the European wars of religion, the return of tolerance as a theological and political option, and the Age of Enlightenment." What do you think? Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't think "Achaia (Roman province)" is the main article for early Christianity's spread in the province. Just wikilink it and Asia Minor when you mention them in this section.
In general, I don't think any of the "Christianity in (X)" are the main articles for these sections, but further information. If there was, for example, "Christianization of Gaul" (currently a redirect) or "Spread of Christianity in Africa", then that would be the main article for those topics.
You can merge two sentences in the Gaul subsection. "Most of what is known of early Christianity in Gaul (modern France) comes from a letter, most likely written by Irenaeus, which theologically interprets the detailed suffering and martyrdom of Christians from Vienne and Lyons during the reign of Marcus Aurelius."
"There is nothing more of Christianity in Gaul beyond one inscription" Is a bit vague, and implies that Christianity might have been completely eradicated during this. To my knowledge, it'd be more accurate to say that there is no written records of Christianity in Gaul until the 4th century.
It might have been completely eradicated for a time. No one knows, and your surmise is actually one among many theories. The one piece of evidence is written evidence, it just happens to be on a gravestone. I think changing it implies there might be other evidence - as in Egypt - and there isn't any at all. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Isn't Egypt part of North Africa? I feel those two subsections could be merged; especially since most of the discussion would be about Egypt anyhow.
Geographically you are of course correct, but in the study of Antiquity, they are separate and you will always see them that way. They were separate Roman provinces. It would be doing something that scholars do not do to combine them.Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd give a footnote, if not a subsection, about Southern India since the St. Thomas Christians are quite interesting and extremely early, and would give due weight to how quickly Christianity spread to regions outside of the Roman Empire.
I find them fascinating as well, and I would love to do this, and indeed there were details on them in one of the earlier versions of this article, but I was told to ditch all the specifics of that type including the Germans and everyone else as too detailed for this article. If the Thomas Christians are mentioned, then fairness requires mention of all the other churches likely founded by one of the apostles - and there are a lot of them - a few dozen attributable to Paul alone. I could easily expand the missionary section, but it would be an expansion of at least a paragraph. Also, some of the claims are disputed. How committed to this are you?
Wouldn't the Church fathers section make sense for Apostolic succession discussion? (Also, describing the doctrine of Apostolic succession itself might be a good thing to add to the end of the early history section; it gives the readers a lot of context for the structural transition from the murky early days to the more historically covered church of the Roman state) Generalissima (talk) 20:53, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"It is likely the Christian message arrived in Rome very early." This feels a bit too church-y in its phraseology to me? I think it'd be more direct to say Christian missionaries arrived in Rome very early.
This seems like changing happy to glad for the most part. "Missionaries" seems to imply a modern concept. Since no one really knows for sure who first brought it, and this reflects what the source actually says, 'the message' of the gospel arriving in Rome (by sources unknown) is more accurate and direct imo. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Christians offered last rites to the dying and buried them" Incidentally implies they were burying the dying rather than the death. Since the next sentence talks about burials, I think you can just end this one at dying.
I'm not sure how relevant the sentence about sexual morality is, esp. since it comes from the thesis of a single (albeit fairly notable) work.
I used him for convenience, but all the latest work says the same, and imo, it is not only relevant, it is important. It is one of the major changes Christianity made back then, and since sex remains a problematic topic in the modern church, and it goes back to this early interpretation by Paul, there is relevance into the modern day. Here is a longer discussion that will hopefully explain more: [3]
This was also a discussion that was removed. This distresses me. It indicates these various removals have clouded the ability to understand the history. Perhaps this should be expanded instead of removed. It seems almost like an afterthought as it is, and it was, and remains, incredibly significant. Think how much of society remains impacted by this! Okay, I have now expanded it a little. Tell me what you think. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Christianity in its first 300 years was also highly exclusive" I think "to outsiders" would be an important addition to help clarify this statement.
I think that would be redundant since the rest of the sentence already includes believing was the crucial and defining characteristic that set a "high boundary" that strongly excluded non-believers.Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
A lot of other section hatnotes should be made "see also" instead of "main article".
"In the first century, new religious texts were written in Greek." Should probably specify that Christian religious texts were being written in Greek, rather than other world religions. Also, I'd spell out "Koine Greek" to prevent confusion with older registers.
Probably don't need to mention that Edwin A. Judge is a social scientist.
Other editors have previously cited me for not including proper attribution and "why should we care what this guy thinks? Who is he?" etc. etc. I think I have included something like this on every named authority in the article that doesn't have a wp page I can link to. Do you want me to goo through and remove them all? Won't that cause the other problem? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"The list of accepted books was established..." Not by everyone! Some apocrypha, the Book of Enoch for instance, was accepted as canonical to Oriental Orthodox. Should note that it was the canon of Chalcedonian Christianity.
That creates a chronological problem. It now says The list of accepted books was established by the Council of Rome in 382, followed by those of Hippo in 393 and Carthage in 397. and the Council of Chalcedon was the fourth ecumenical council that wasn't held until 451. It wasn't until that same century that Enoch was excluded from the western canon. I can add 'for catholics' but that's actually redundant since, at the time, there was only one church and the east was part of it. It wasn't until 451 that Oriental Orthodoxy split from the rest of Christianity. Do I have your okay to leave it as is? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:51, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I didn't realize Enoch was part of the canon established at the Council of Rome. Yeah, that works. Maybe just a quick clarification that later churches would exclude books from this canon would be helpful to readers? Generalissima (talk) 20:57, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"The title "Church Father" is used by the Church to describe those who were the intellectual and spiritual teachers, leaders and philosophers of early Christianity" You can ditch the "those who were" here. Generalissima (talk) 06:33, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"In 313, he issued the Edict of Milan, which was already Licinius' policy." How can something he issued be his predecessors policy?
Not his predecessor, his co-emperor. See previous sentence he did not become sole emperor until after defeating Licinius the emperor in the East in 324 That must need clarifying or it would not confuse you. Done hopefully Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I feel you overquote Cameron here, and should try to condense these quotes down a bit with paraphrasing. In general, I think the use of quotes is a bit too high for my tastes and should be tapered down to only when strictly necessary.
"With an "autocratic government, stable farm economy, Greek intellectual heritage and ... Orthodox Christianity", it had great wealth and economic resources enabling it to survive until 1453" This quote makes it sound like Orthodox Christianity was one of the reasons the Byzantine Empire was able to survive, but I'm not sure if that is accurate here.
It reflects the source and probably is correct. Having one religion was a unifying cultural factor at the societal level back then. Since Gibbon has been undermined by current scholarship, and it is no longer fashionable to hold Christianity responsible for the demise of the western empire, there are even theories floating around claiming Christianity is what kept the west afloat when it should have collapsed after the third century. No one really knows of course. That statement's from a History of the Western Humanities, a really well done book that's been reprinted repeatedly since 1992. Current scholarship supports their statement. Any counter-view would be a minority view. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I will have to finish this later. Thank you for all your amazing work here. You are taking this seriously, are bending over backwards to be fair and reasonable and seem knowledgable about the topic - not a combination I get very often. I am very grateful. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:37, 4 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Use the "circa" template whenever you abbreviate circa as "c.", for accessibility reasons.
I am apparently operating under the misunderstanding that it automatically did that. So now I have replaced them all with the circa template - I hope - I did not do the sources though because they came with a c. - is that okay? If so, this is DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 06:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
So many unnecessary quotes! I can tell you love a good quote, but a lot of these are unnecessary and not really brilliant prose. "When the Theodosian Code was published in 438, no emperor had as yet legislated enforced conversion... no emperor was willing to legalize the enforced conversion of pagans until [the Eastern emperor] Justinian in A.D. 529." Is too lengthy and can comfortably be paraphrased.
"Historian Peter Brown surmises that it was for this reason that, except for a few instances involving violent politics, "In most areas, polytheists were not molested" they were ignored; fourth century Christians focused on heretics instead" Not only is the quote unnecessary here, it is ungrammatical. Just remove it.
"Sometime before the fifth century, some churchmen reinterpreted millennialism, which is the hope of the thousand-year reign of the Messiah on earth centered in Jerusalem and ruling with the Jews, and added supersessionism, which sees the Church as the metaphorical Israel in place of the Jews." This sentence has quite a few issues. Earth isn't capitalized, and "which is" is unnecessary and somewhat informal. Since the subject is somewhat vague to begin with, I would rewrite it to something like "Sometime before the fifth century, millennialism (the hope of a thousand-year earthly reign of the Messiah centered in Jerusalem) was reinterpreted within a doctrine of supersessionism, which sees the Church as the metaphorical Israel in place of the Jews."
Why would earth be capitalized? I have struggled with this section and have tried to find a way to rewrite it that doesn't create other issues. For example, this was reinterpreted within a doctrine of supersessionism, implies the one replace the other, and that is not so. They existed alongside each other, one official and the other not ever an official doctrine of the church. Our article here on WP takes a full paragraph in the lead to try and explain it, and doesn't do a great job. I will work on this one. It's too important to cut which would be my knee-jerk response to anything this problematic. I will do some more research and see if I can find a better clearer definition. Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:03, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generalissima So I found something and edited in something, and it's a mealy mouthed sentence that says "someone did something", but part of the problem is that no one knows how or when this actually began - there are different theories that suggest different time frames - and there is no clear definition, since it has never been an official doctrine. It's more of an attitude, and while I assume you will hate this sentence - since I know I do - it's still an improvement over what was there! That's kind of pitiful, I know. If you have a better version, please do tell me! Otherwise, I guess this is Done Maybe. Sorta. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:21, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Central figures in the development of monasticism were Basil in the East and, in the West, Benedict, who created the Rule of Saint Benedict, which would become the most common rule throughout the Middle Ages and the starting point for other monastic rules" This sentence is missing a comma before "and", but it would be awfully lengthy either way, and would be best split. "Basil was a central figure of monasticism in the East. In the west, Benedict created the Rule of Saint Benedict, which would become the most common rule throughout the Middle Ages and the starting point for other monastic rules."
With few exceptions, most organized societies c.600 called themselves Christian if they were headed by Christian leaders, not because populations were fully converted." Societies, including these non-Christians, were calling themselves this? Or were outside sources?
This is a good question. I went to the source, and it says: The Jews raised the fact that many “barbarian” nations had plainly not become Christian. Julian’s answer to such skeptics is revealing. He divided the world into two zones. The first was fully Christian; and it was fully Christian because it was ruled by Christian rulers. “For although there are still unbelieving peoples in some regions, they are nonetheless unable to escape the Lordship of Christ. For they are suppressed by rulers in whom it is known that Christ already dwells through their faith in Him.”4The second zone formed a less well-defined penumbra of the first: “For nor do I think [Julian continues] that there is any population left which does not know of the name of Christ. And although it may not have a preacher [of the Gospel present among them] it cannot but know of Christ from what it has heard from other nations.”5It is with this notion of a double zone within the single, overarching territory of the world-wide Kingdom of Christ that we must begin our account of what we now call “Christendom” in 600 CE.}}
So this is the Emperor Julian, so perhaps that should be said instead of "themselves". Perhaps I can rephrase to include the two-zone idea without the preaching. I have rewritten that sentence. I don't know if it's actually better or if it's more of a "who cares?" kind of thing. You will need to tell me if you think this is Done or not. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"The Frankish King Clovis I converted from Paganism to Roman Catholicism around 498-508, becoming the first to unite all of the Frankish tribes under one ruler." This sentence he became the first unified Frankish king due to conversion, but AFAIK this wasn't the case. Maybe switch the order around?
Looks good; but IIRC it's debated if Charlemagne was actually a descendant of the Merovingian dynasty; it relies on some sketchy later genealogies that might have been dynastic propaganda. I'd call him just "A later Frankish king" Generalissima (talk) 21:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm not sure if master's degrees and doctorates were distinct in the Middle Ages? The initial paragraph of the body on Master's seems to say they were practically synonymous, but I don't have access to the source it cites.
They were because the system was modeled after the apprentice/journeyman programs already established in society. But perhaps 'degrees' is sufficient. DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 20:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Don't need to put quotes around Church of the East, since that is its common name.
I would use "Central and Eastern Europe" instead of the highly geopolitical "East-Central".
The source says The eleventh century in Europe gave birth not just to new states but to a new region which later became known as East Central Europe.44 at the very bottom of page 87. I could add it as a quote... Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:40, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"developing the first Slavic alphabet using Cyrillic script." But Cyrillic postdates Glagolitic (and Cyril)
Well, our article on Cyril and Methodius has this: The alphabet has been traditionally attributed to Cyril. That attribution has been confirmed explicitly by the papal letter Industriae tuae (880) ... The early Cyrillic alphabet was developed by the disciples of Saints Cyril and Methodius at the Preslav Literary School (previously in Pliska as Pliska Literary School) at the end of the 9th century ... This reflects the sources I looked at and the one I ended up using as well.
"Before there was Europe, western society worked toward creating Christendom: a loosely interdependent community of Christian kingdoms and peoples with a shared religious tradition." I get what you're trying to say here, but Europe has existed for several billion years. Social conceptions of "European civilisation" are a bit newer.
Also, I think this section is named confusingly. Perhaps rename the previous section to "Early Middle Ages" and this one to "High and Late Middle Ages"?
None of the dates chosen for this article correspond exactly to those names. The Early Middle Ages are generally seen as 500-1000. The High Middle Ages is a bit clearer as 1000 to 1300, but these are neither hard a fast nor universal. Such nomenclature is still being discussed, so I felt free to combine eras in hopes of focusing on paradigm shifts and geography. I thought several times of removing the titles entirely and just having the dates. What would you think of that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
So I went back and did that. Just dates now. Is it too weird? If it's less confusing, perhaps that's still a decent trade off. What do you think? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:48, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"riddled with corruption" While very true, overly dramatic prose.
I am going to disagree on this one. I haven't really disagreed with you before this, but imo, this succinctly summarizes several sources, and several descriptions - detailed descriptions - of what that means, and it seems to me that riddled is fully accurate. It is a bit dramatic, you're right, but it was dramatic in history as well, for those people, and for the revolutions it led to. They betrayed their trust, and it changed everything that followed. It was dramatic, and IMO, that description should stay accordingly. The bad should be as clear as the good in a history. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Very strange language used to refer to Muslims; "Moslems" has been outdated since the 19th century, and "Islamists" refers to adherents of the 20th/21st century political movement.
Without actually checking, I would guess that reflects whatever the sources used. I can normalize that. Which term do you prefer? I can change all references to that one. Hmm, I went and tried and didn't find 'Moslims' but changed the two refs to Islamists. Done?? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"the searchers found the works of Aristotle and Euclid and more. What had been lost to the West after the collapse of the empire, was found, and the future would be forever changed." This section needs quite a bit of work, its tone feels more like a news article than an encyclopedia.
But that is exactly what did happen! It created a complete paradigm shift. Okay, so I went and said that instead. "What had been lost to the West after the collapse of the empire, was found, and its rediscovery created a paradigm shift in the history of Christianity." Is that better? Is this Done then?? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Again, unnecessary amounts of quotes for things you can paraphrase.
"This formed the foundation of future Western civilization" - if you subscribe to theories that treat "western civilization" as a set of distinct innovations, which is not a universal viewpoint. I would rephrase it to avoid using the word "civilization", is that can be highly controversial in academic circles.
Without getting into discussions of post-modernism and the legitimacy of its claims, it is exactly what the source says, and it seems important enough to include. I'm sorry you don't like this section. It is terrifically important to all that follows after it. The roots of much of the future are here. I added an attribution, so it is clear it is their view, and modified the sentence a bit. I hope that is sufficient. It is, from my POV, therefore DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generalissima Good Lord I sound pompous and put out, and I'm not - really - I apologize for sounding that way. I am somewhat distracted here. This section wasn't done, but hopefully it is now. I have reworked it, added specific details, removed quotes, then added a new one that included "civilized life" instead of "western civilization". I hope you approve. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:56, 6 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I would rebracket things to move Renaissance-era events in the Early Modern (where it is often included).
I got fussed at for including anything that even referenced the Renaissance as not being an aspect of Christian history. I thought I had done that. Other than supporting art and architecture, what would you be referring to? Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't think you need commas around the list of sacraments in Beliefs and Practices, since it's in a parenthetical list.
I had to go look up the rule for that one. The Brief English Handbook says that if the information inside the parentheses is a list, then use commas. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd wikilink Neume when you discuss musical notation.
I had to go look that up as well. A. Parrot would remind me this is Christian History not history of music. I think I would agree that it isn't relevant to the topic here. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's somewhat unclear which centuries you're referring to in "Centralization and persecution (1100-1300)", so I would just move the date to the beginning and start the paragraph "From the 12th to 14th centuries"
Generalissima I completely redid this section, so it may have new problems in place of the old ones. I am attempting to make the transition that takes place within the church easier to see and understand. It's so easy to muddy these waters and not so easy to clear them. I keep going round the same circles, so you tell me what you think, please. I will go by that on whether to revert this change or keep it. Jenhawk777 (talk) 20:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd move the centralization and persecution section before the church militant for clarity of timeline. The Reconquista and early crusades began before the Medieval Inquisition and the Albigensian Crusade.
Centralization and persecution is before the church militant. I organized these originally by content, though I did take time into consideration. Right now the order is Centralization and persecution (1100-1300), and its subsets: Law (it says by the 14th century so that's before 1300) and Inquisition (1184–1230) and (1230s–1240s). The Albigensian Crusade (1209) is in the same section because it was persecution on the part of the church.
Then there's Church militant (1095 - 1218) as a separate big topic which includes the Baltics wars 1147 to 1316. The Iberian Reconquista is placed based on when it ended in 1492. Since there is overlap in the time frames, this seemed the best approach. Can you see your way clear to accepting that? Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"By the end of the first millennium in the East, a rich and varied culture, characterized by ethnic diversity, and centered around Constantinople, a famously prosperous and powerful city with numerous market places, massive walls and magnificent monuments, had fully developed." This is a really long sentence and kind of difficult to parse. Could you find a way to split it into two sentences?
You link "Christianization of Kievan Rus", but don't actually discuss this. I think this is a pretty important topic that I would go into more depth to, but would move earlier. The creation of a unified Orthodox state in Russia is important, but I don't think needs a subsection here.
I agree with you. I thought it was important too. That's why I originally included a whole long section on it. Then it was cut, because I was told by three different editors in a row that "this is a broad overview and you can't keep all the details about every country. If someone wants to know more, countries have their own pages." I had every country and it all got cut. It made me cry, but that's when the article had over 20,000 words. I would love to put it back, but I'm afraid they're right. Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:45, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I posted this earlier, but I think it got lost. No apologies necessary. You are by far the single best reviewer I have ever had. I write exclusively in this area - religion, religious history - and I've been doing this for a few years now, and you are amazing. It is no small feat to put up with me with the equanimity you have shown, and I am grateful for your knowledge, your hard work, and your grace. You have given me so much work though! It may take awhile for me to catch up with you! Please be patient. I'll be back in a few hours and get to work tonight. Thank you again. No more apologies! You rock! Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:02, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Jenhawk777 (talk) 00:18, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
This paragraph opens a bit strangely and dramatically; you should avoid making objective statements about importance, and rather state that scholars generally believe the establishment of sovereign states to be the most important political development of the period.
I think "Seventeenth century Enlightenment" can just be titled "The Enlightenment"; there were others, but The Enlightenment is generally unambiguous. (Also while most of the "Main Article" hatnotes should be removed, here's one where it'd be useful to have one! Also put a hatnote for main article on Counter-reformation)
"world changing debate" Again, important not to make claims of relative importance in the encyclopedia's voice; see MOS:PEACOCK
Mos Peacock uses the term subjective. If this is actually the view of scholars, then it has some objectivity instead, (which I think I remember reading, but now need to go find it again, and if I'm correct then it isn't subjective), but it should probably still be restated as to exactly what scholars do say. So now I will spend some time researching as well as writing. I will be back with something tomorrow. Doing...Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generalissima Okay, I think you are right here - whether it's subjective or objective is beside the point. So I have now rewritten that paragraph with some new references. Please tell me you approve! If so, this is DoneJenhawk777 (talk) 21:12, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"Spinoza, an Amsterdam Jew, who published against religion, along with Hobbes and others, supported a matter based (materialistic) mechanistic universe with no need of God". I think this sentence can be rewritten to avoid needing as many short subclauses, but I'm not sure how directly important Spinoza is to the history of Christianity rather than Enlightenment philosophy in general.
That's probably a good point. I was just using him to make the transition to society becoming secular at every level. I can redo that. Doing...Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think it would be important to mention foreign missions more in this section; especially the widespread missionary activity in Japan, the work of Jesuit missionaries in China, and the the conversion of the Kongo to Christianity. I think it's important to present a worldwide overview of this as often as we can.
I had a bunch under colonialism - and guess - it got cut as too much detail for an overview article like this one. You want all the same things I did in this article. I sympathize. I will still see if I can't accommodate you in a very short paragraph. I'll be back Doing...Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:23, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am struggling with this one. I think you're right that it deserves mentioning. There was a paradigm shift after the 1960s. I will work on it more tomorrow, but I am setting it to the side tonight. Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:11, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Please just go through and remove the "Main article" hatnotes unless the articles are dedicated to covering the history of Christianity within the period described. You overuse these, and I would argue that it's far more useful to just link them in-article than shove a big list of hatnotes at the beginning of each section.
I am happy to do that. If you went back and looked, you would see I didn't put any of them in this article. People come along and add them at will. I am happy to remove them. Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
"After 1828, most missionaries found it difficult to defend the policies of their government" writes McLoughlin." - another quote that would be better to write in prose.
This section reads a little America-centric. Can we try to mention the Kulturkampf and the Taiping Rebellion? Oh, and you don't mention the French Revolution at all; I feel the brief rejection of Christianity by the French revolutionaries represents a high-water-point to the Enlightenment era secularism.
It is American-centric. Each section is focused geographically where the center of Christianity was most active during the time frame being covered. First in Palestine, then Rome, then Europe, then America, then Africa, Asia and global.
I have gone back and forth on the French Revolution. It isn't strictly a major aspect of the history of Christianity itself, though it's really interesting. So much could be said! I will do some reading! But I am going to bed now. Tomorrow! Jenhawk777 (talk) 05:31, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Fair enough. I think the Taiping Rebellion is worth mentioning though, since it was a hugely impactful event (one of the deadliest wars in history) that directly stemmed from Christian missionary activity in Asia. Generalissima (talk) 05:43, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Well, I can't find a source that says that, yet, though I am still looking. This one (Michael, Franz. “Military Organization and Power Structure of China during the Taiping Rebellion.” Pacific Historical Review, vol. 18, no. 4, 1949, pp. 469–83. JSTOR, https://doi.org/10.2307/3635664) lists several causes such as taxation and never mentions missions. This one is the same: (Taylor, George E. "Taiping Rebellion, The." Chinese Soc. & Pol. Sci. Rev. 16 (1932): 545.) Google-scholar on Taiping rebellion produces several more like this.
So then I looked specifically for Christian influence and found one provocative article (Durham, Walter T. “A Tennessee Baptist Missionary in China: Issachar Jacox Roberts and the Taiping Rebellion, 1837-1866.” Tennessee Historical Quarterly, vol. 72, no. 2, 2013, pp. 92–105. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/43825602) with an interesting perspective. I am now looking for some corroboration that indicates this is a majority view, since in a "broad overview" I can't really include minority views. This is taking awhile. If you can help with a reference, that would be appreciated! Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:36, 8 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
You don't really describe what "Neo-orthodoxy" is, so it might be helpful wikilinking and/or elaborating to distinguish from Orthodox Christianity.
I speak a little German, (I lived there as a kid), and I don't see how that can be correct. "Mit" means with, while "in" basically means in but is usually about time or place. In and with wouldn't be used together in this manner - I don't think. Brennender is burning, such as extreme anguish or anxiety, so in English this sort of says "with rising anxiety". What do you have as a source? Jenhawk777 (talk) 01:34, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'd wikilink Bolshevik Revolution (and possibly just use October Revolution to reduce confusion, as its the common name). I'd also mention the League of Militant Atheists as part of Soviet anti-religious repression.
"In the twentieth century, liberal Christianity embraced the Social Gospel and liberation theology movements." Not universally. I'd rephrase this to say reform ideas such as the Social Gospel and liberation theology.
I feel your description of the Prosperity theology is a bit too positive in tone for one of the most heavily opposed strands of modern Protestantism. However, I do believe it's very important, and I think the emergence of megachurches and televangelism represents a very important part of how modern technology and social relationships has affected Christianity.
"Racial violence over the last several decades demonstrates how troubled issues of race remain in the twenty-first century" Avoid making relative statements of time as it quickly dates an article. I would also specify this is racial violence in the United States. In general, these later sections trend towards a highly American perspective - not to blame at all, I guarantee the sources themselves are biased in this respect - but are important to work against for the sake of presenting a good worldwide overview.
Make sure to mention South Korea as an area where Christianity has grown (as it has become the largest religion in the country; although this trend started in the late 19th century, so it might be worth putting earlier.)
@Jenhawk777: Okay, that's all for now! Once you do more revisions I'll look over the whole article and see if I can do any copy editing touch-ups or if there are any more phrasing issues that need to be touched up. Thank you so much for your hard work - the finish line is in sight, I feel. :3 Generalissima (talk) 22:49, 7 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generalissima The topics you have mentioned adding seem to me to be more at the level of 'detail' rather than 'overview': they are specific to a certain locale. Those that are more universal are already either mentioned or alluded to in various references. I am going to decline to add and expand on that basis. The 'comprehensive' aspect of this article is limited to its biggest most sweepingly significant aspects. The Cambridge history of Christianity has 10 volumes, I think, and 30 topics in each volume. There is not room in a WP article like this to even mention them all, nevertheless all the additional interesting details that you and I would like to see here. Other editors have convinced me of this, even though I kicked and screamed the whole way. I don't like it - I would let the article be long - but then it would never make FA, and I think this is too important a topic for it not to be. So I am constrained. I'm sorry. Genuinely. I want to add the other things you suggest, but I think they can't be included.
I think that indicates I have Done all that I can here. I hope it's okay. If not, please argue your position and reasoning. I am still willing to adapt and adjust. Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:35, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Y'know, that is more than fair enough. We have to be limited to what is listed in the reliable sources for what qualifies as an overview; I apologize if I have been overzealous in this. I'm gonna take one last sweep over the article to see if there's any spots that need touching up; thank you so much as always for your hard work. Generalissima (talk) Generalissima (talk) 19:52, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
Once again, you owe me no apologies. You have been remarkable, and your "overzealousness" is akin to my own, so I see it as a virtue! You have been a truly great reviewer. I often find that change requests amount to changing "happy" to "glad", but yours were all substantive and I think they genuinely improved the article. I am deeply grateful that you were the one to answer this nomination. You are informed, serious, conscientious and most of all, you took the time. I have no complaints of any kind. Whatever the outcome here, I wish you all the best, and I thank you for all your hard work. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:43, 9 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
You know, this isn't per se part of the review, but this is getting me thinking about how to, at an FA level, we could let a reader get to more detailed information. For areas where we have to do intense summary and there isn't a single article covering it, you could use a lot of the information you have already had to cut to write a summary of Christianity in a particular region/time period and then link those as the "main topic" in certain areas. These already exist for a number of areas, but even relatively short articles could help a lot. (IE, "History of Christianity in the Age of Exploration" would let you use all those sources about early modern colonial Christianity)
While this obviously outside the main scope of this article or review, it could be a fun way to frame your work going forward; since this is definitely an area you have spent a lot of time writing on
As for the prose itself: Doing a look-over, I think it's a state I'm happy signing off on now. I feel like the road to FAC going forward is looking pretty bright, albeit most likely quite difficult due to the pure amount of prose that the FAC reviewers will have to latch on to and nitpick.
1a: The prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and
1b: it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
