Talk:LGBTQ themes in anime and manga

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I propose to merge LGBT themes in anime and manga (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (26k) with a new page I created today, History of LGBT anime (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (147k), following the guidance outlined on WP:MERGEINIT. I was not aware of this page until today, but I had already written the other page, so I published it. However, after some discussion on Anime and manga WikiProject and looking at this page, I see overlap between the two pages. And, I think that duplication on Wikipedia should be limited at all possible. This merger would allow for some of the addition of shows like Rose of Versailles, Ranma ½, Kashimashi: Girl Meets Girl, Strawberry Panic!, Sweet Blue Flowers, Wandering Son, Yurikuma Arashi, Otherside Picnic, and other series, into this page, which are currently not on this page. Many of these anime are interconnected together, with Ikuhara, who directed some seasons of Sailor Moon and RGU, later directing Yurikuma Arashi. It would expand the page to anime films than just anime series. Please indicate whether you support or oppose this proposal. Thanks. @Veverve, Brsmith19, Maximajorian Viridio, Circlechen002, and Mazie95:, and anyone else concerned. Historyday01 (talk) 17:29, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• SUpport also you want to bring attention to a merge discussion, try notifying a wiki project. you may get accused of canvassing.Blue Pumpkin Pie (talk) 17:59, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  You are right. I posted it on the LGBT project, but not the other project because I didn't want to interfere with our existing discussion on there. Anyway, I just posted it on there. --Historyday01 (talk) 18:14, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  FYI, the {{merge}} template does trigger the AAlertBot to post this to the alert pages of all the tagged WikiProjects above. But I guess that requires people to watch the alert page vice main project talk page... -2pou (talk) 18:35, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

  Did not know that, but that is good to know for future reference. Thanks for letting me know. --Historyday01 (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

• Weak oppose per WP:SIZERULE. I would rather see content merged the opposite way so the articles balance out in terms of scope. What exactly would you merge into the larger article anyways? It would be helpful if you had a proposed sandbox idea first to show what a combined article would look like. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  Nah, that's a really bad idea, Knowledgekid87. I doubt others will agree with you on that. I would assess each article and move in what I think is important, connected with the existing content, while other content would be moved to other pages. Having two pages that are very similar is not good and what Wikipedia is the worst at. There should a reduction of duplication, not having more duplication. Historyday01 (talk) 00:12, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  I'm not arguing for duplication here, I am just wondering if there is a way to split the article apart to focus on different areas. History of LGBT anime appears to be a broad topic that spans 60 years. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:14, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

  It used to be even broader and I narrowed it down to that. I suppose the article could be split apart rather than merged, but I'll see what others have to say about this discussion. I was planning on keeping this open as long as possible, especially since I have another merger discussion going on right now on the Web television page, a proposed split of the List of transgender characters in film and television page, and a proposed split of content from the Media portrayal of LGBT people page. So, that's a lot to keep track of! Due to that and other editing, I don't have the time, or energy, to put together a proposed sandbox idea, at this time. I'd be interested in what other people have to say because if only you and Blue Pumpkin Pie are the only respondents (other than the comment by 2pou), ultimately, then I'll probably close this request and probably just include a link to it on the History of LGBT anime page, then make plans from there. Historyday01 (talk) 00:43, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Neutral mainly due to article sizes and scope. I refactored the links above to allow access to additional information. I think a good size chunk of History of LGBT anime should be cut out and added to the LGBT themes in anime and manga, as Knowledgekid87 suggests above. The former is 50,000+ bytes over the splitting range already. GenQuest ^"scribble" 07:29, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

  GenQuest, I can understand that. Which parts of the History of LGBT anime sections do you think should be split to the LGBT themes page? I mean if the result of this is an opposition to a merger, I'd be ok with that as long as I know which parts should be moved to which article. Historyday01 (talk) 14:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

  However you guys think it should be. Creating any article of nearly 175K size will just turn readers off. That is nearly twice the size of what should be an absolute upper limit on size. People just won't read it. GenQuest ^"scribble" 00:28, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

GenQuest, I can understand, completely. That's the positive of this discussion. You are right that people may not read it, if it is that length. But, we'll see what the results are once this discussion concludes. Historyday01 (talk) 14:15, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose merge per GenQuest. ~ HAL333 19:03, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

  HAL333, are you going to explain anymore than that? I just want to know your reasons for opposition. It would help further this discussion. Historyday01 (talk) 23:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support merge - as both a major anime fan, LGBT, and in Japan, I attest that the page need not be separated. Can I suggest that the two pages are merged and renamed into something akin to "LGBT in anime"? Geicraftor (talk) 09:01, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

  Glad you feel that way. That title could work. Historyday01 (talk) 13:40, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

  Please see WP:BLUDGEON. It is neither expected nor desirable to respond to RfC, merger, RM, etc. comments with personal commentary about how you feel about others' comments.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:28, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok. Well, I'm not pulling back my commentary. Historyday01 (talk) 14:15, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support Merge. I also agree that the newly merged page should be renamed to "LGBT in anime" or something of the like. Link20XX (talk) 22:57, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

  That makes sense. As I told Geicraftor, that would be acceptable name for the page, to be sure. Historyday01 (talk) 23:23, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support merge. The one subject is obviously a subset of the other, which is not so long that a WP:SPLIT is necessary or desirable.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:28, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

That was my thought too! I'm glad you agree. Historyday01 (talk) 16:15, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - History of LGBT anime in its current state has way too much plot summary. Instead, I'd like to see emphasis what other people regard as the most influential/controversial works, and then add plot summaries for context. If they're not as significant, a passing mention would do. I think then it'd be easier to see if a merge is warranted. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 02:05, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Ganbaruby, if the merger fails, I'll likely just move the other "not as significant" content to the pages for each anime, and split it off that way. Additionally, the content from the History of LGBT anime relating to Princess Knight, Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and Revolutionary Girl Utena into the page. But, if the merger was approved, then I'd probably move in content of Yurikuma Arashi (since Ikuhara worked on it), with the same applying to Nodame Cantabile, Sarazanmai, Sweet Blue Flowers, and Adolescence of Utena, along with perhaps Rose of Versailles (since Ikuhara was inspired by it). Beyond that, I don't know. However, I have never found anyone talking about what the significant yuri or yaoi anime (and LGBTQ anime in general) are, just people saying what they think is the "best," which is only marginally helpful. Good luck and finding that stuff, but I seriously doubt that even exists (it should, but I don't think it does), at this point, and I've been doing LGBTQ pages for about a year now. I only chose the ones that actually had decent analysis and the ones which reviewers said were important due to their LGBTQ representation for one reason or another. The ones that didn't, I just chucked them and didn't put them on the page. I know that's probably not the best method, but I wanted to salvage what I had put together on previous pages without doing a lot of unnecessary research. So, if the merger is not successful, I'll likely just move over the Ikuhara stuff, CLAMP stuff, and perhaps stuff relating to Rose of Versailles, and everything else will be chucked. Honestly, I feel I am no good judge to say what anime are "significant" or not, as I have no idea which series are more "significant" than others. In sum, I think that's a waste of time to find out which ones are "significant." I admit that perhaps there is too much plot summary but I'm not sure how, if it is even possible at all, to intertwine plot summaries with the text itself. On a related note, currently, the History of LGBT Anime page is organized chronologically, but is centered around the directors, other than Ikuhara, mostly, and some others, as shown in the below list:

• Osamu Tezuka, who directed the 1970 Cleopatra film, wrote the Princess Knight manga, later turned into an anime (which he worked on)
• Osamu Dezaki, who directed the last half of Rose of Versailles, directed Dear Brother
• Junji Nishimura, who directed Urusei Yatsura, which had a character inspired by Ranma ½, directed Kyo Kara Maoh!, Simoun, Lupin the Third: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, Vlad Love, and an anime-inspired animation, Neo Yokio
• CLAMP connected to RG Veda, Tokyo Babylon, X, Sailor Moon, Cardcaptor Sakura, and Cardcaptor Sakura: Clear Card
• Takuya Igarashi, who directed Sailor Stars, later directed Ouran High School Host Club
• Kazunori Itō, who composed the screenplay of Ghost in the Shell, worked on .hack//Sign
• Yōji Enokido, a scriptwriter of Revolutionary Girl Utena, would later write scripts for Neon Genesis Evangelion, FLCL, and Ouran High School Host Club.
• Takeo Takahashi, a key animator of Gravitation, would later storyboard episodes of Strawberry Panic! and Mayo Chiki! along with directing Citrus
• Shigehito Takayanagi, a storyboarder and episode director of Azumanga Daioh: The Animation, who had worked on Cardcaptor Sakura, would direct Kanamemo
• Satoshi Kon, who directed Tokyo Godfathers, had previously directed an OVA of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
• Yūji Yamaguchi, who directed Yamibou, would later direct Tōka Gettan
• Tetsuya Yanagisawa, who directed Kannazuki no Miko, would later direct Shattered Angels
• Masakazu Obara, who directed My-HiME, who would later direct My-Otome
• Nobuaki Nakanishi, who directed Kashimashi: Girl Meets Girl, had previously been a storyboard and episode director of Cardcaptor Sakura
• Masayuki Sakoi, who directed Strawberry Panic!, later directed A Kiss for the Petals: Becoming Your Lover and Sword Art Online Alternative Gun Gale Online
• Ken'ichi Kasai, who directed Sweet Blue Flowers, had been a director for Nodame Cantabile and an assistant director of Sailor Moon
• Naoyuki Tatsuwa, an assistant storyboarder of Puella Magi Madoka Magica, had previous directed Monogatari
• Yukihiro Miyamoto, who directed Puella Magi Madoka Magica, previously directed Maria Holic
• Kazuya Murata, who directed Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, had previously done production on an OVA titled Gunsmith Cats
• Naoyuki Tatsuwa, who would be a series director for Citrus, would later direct some episode of Interspecies Reviewers
• Takuya Satō, who is directing Otherside Picnic, previously directed Asagao to Kase-san and Happy-Go-Lucky Days

That's just my thoughts on this. Historyday01 (talk) 05:17, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

@Historyday01: You're correct to say that you don't judge what's significant or not: that would be WP:OR. Instead, we want to reflect critical consensus, and if that's not possible, use in-text attribution to industry professionals or prominent critics. I don't know any of the works listed (I watched two episodes of Citrus as a joke; unless you count Love Live), but merge or not merge, you'll still have to find a way to condense everything. You may need to cut a bunch of plot summary and say "critics also mention X, Y, and Z as influential in [whatever context]. PS: please ping me ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 03:25, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

I think I'll end up using the latter approach of industry professionals or prominent critics, but I think a merged page should indicate that only significant works are shown, so people don't try and add other series. I can agree with you that I'll still have to find a way to condense everything, but I don't want to do any work on the article until the discussion has concluded. Historyday01 (talk) 03:36, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. At almost a month into this merger discussion, I'm going to keep it going for as long as I can because currently there is NO consensus on what to do in terms of this merger, as about the same number of people support a merger as those opposed. Just my observation here.--Historyday01 (talk) 17:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support merge.--Vulphere 03:18, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Continuing Discussion: third article

I created a new article called "LGBT in anime" and started copying over some of the text, though User:Ravensfire seems to have some hidden agenda with me and wants to vanquish it. If user Historyday01 wants to expand that page, I made a subheading with a link to History of LGBT in Anime that you could also expand possibly if you think it deserves a separate page. Geicraftor (talk) 08:35, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Hmm, @Geicraftor, I think it's a bit too early for that because there is no consensus of this discussion. Creating a third similar page, at this point, probably isn't a good idea. I'd like this discussion to be resolved first, then the pages can be merged or something else can happen. Historyday01 (talk) 14:12, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

@Geicraftor: stop with the personal attacks, especially when they are utterly nonsense. I have made ZERO edits to that article (and don't plan to) and made ZERO edits to the talk page (and don't plan to). The only related edit I made is to make sure you knew that you needed to correctly attribute that you copied most of that article from other articles and helpfully gave you a link to the page on how to do that. You still haven't done that, I notice. I hope you'll correct that soon especially since it's quite easy. The attribution helps other editor know that the material was from another page and if they wanted to see the prior history of that text and the editors that have worked on it, they'll know where to go. It's both good manners to correctly credit people for their work and something that Wikipedia requires. Ravensfire (talk) 15:19, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Ravensfire is right. Adding in that attribution on LGBT in Anime is important. Geicraftor, while I appreciate your effort, I think it would a better idea to move this to a draft for now, as you moved way too hastily in creating this article, as this discussion isn't over yet! Additionally, I'd argue that the page itself isn't necessary because it duplicates the two pages mentioned in this discussion. I understand the urge to create new pages, but in cases like this, you have to restrain this urge. And yes, I do believe that History of LGBT anime (or whatever is the result of this discussion, whether it is merged with the LGBT themes page or not) deserves a separate page. Historyday01 (talk) 15:39, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: I have started a new conversation about the future of LGBT in anime. Since it heavily effects this discussion, I would like the participants of this discussions opinion on my plans. Link20XX (talk) 22:19, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Link20XX, thanks for doing that, and I hope others in this discussion join in the discussion there. Historyday01 (talk) 17:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Now that the merge is closed, my ideas that I proposed (now on Draft:LGBT in anime) still stand. Link20XX (talk) 16:28, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll join in the discussion there after I've finished my other merger (not these two pages, but other ones)... Historyday01 (talk) 16:33, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Sakura

Is there anyone among the authors of the article who is knowledgeable enough about CCS? I think the title section needs to be rewritten a bit, but my memory isn't that good and I don't want to sound like a bull in a china shop. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:14, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Like my other comment below, I'll see what Erica Friedman's By Your Side book says and if there's anything to add... Historyday01 (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Proposal to add more sections on influential LGBTQ shows

Also, how about expanding the section with more actual significant LGBTQ titles? The article seems frozen in the 00s, while since then there have clearly been quite a few influential queer shows in the industry like Yuri on Ice, Banana Fish, Bloom into you, etc. Moreover, these shows were very popular and directly focused on LGBTQ content rather than having it as an additional subplot in the middle of a more general theme (Well, in the case of Fish things are a little more complicated, but the anime objectively became the second BIG male homoerotic show in the 10s). In general, we can do a lot of things, but at the moment this seems to be the simplest. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, I totally agree! I probably would have added sections myself, but I was so busy putting together this article's counterpart for Western animation (it was a LOT of work) and other stuff, that now I can turn to other articles like this one. I was thinking of adding a section on I'm in Love with the Villainess too, if I can find enough good scholarly sources sources on it. The Bloom Into You page has enough sources in the reception section that some of those could be brought in here. I have a copy of Erica Friedman's By Your Side: The First 100 Years of Yuri Anime and Manga, which I bought recently, so I may use that as a source to build out the sections you have mentioned. I think Anime Feministcan be useful here for sections on Yuri on Ice (articles here]) and I'm In Love with the Villainess (articles here, although the "My Fave is Problematic: I’m in Love with the Villainess" is the most in-depth, as the others are pretty brief and only reviews of a few episodes generally), to give two examples. Historyday01 (talk) 19:34, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

To begin with, I suggest making a list of 3 or 5 shows, sections about which we need to add first and with which there will definitely not be problems in terms of sources and depth of information. I understand that you want to write the "I'm in Love with a Villainess" section first? I don't know how influential the adaptation was, but the original LN was clearly a big deal in the Japanese and Western animanga community. Solaire the knight (talk) 19:44, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

That's a good idea. The shows added should certainly be ones which don't have issues in terms of sources and depth of information, for sure. I'm not sure how influential the adaptation was but... I do agree with you about the original LN (and then the manga). Looking back at the article history, I guess I forgot that I was the one who added sections for Wandering Son and Yurikuma Arashi back in 2021, while also expanding the Utena and Cardcaptor Sakura sections, along with some other additions over the years. But, even that isn't enough for the reasons you pointed out.Historyday01 (talk) 19:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

You can also think about various shows like Given or that school BL, which was popular in the spring season, but whose name I forgot. Perhaps there are some sources describing something like a revival of BL anime in recent years. If we don't have enough depth to describe them as separate shows, then we can then make a small paragraph in the section about the 20s and also mention G-WItch there as the first objectively gay Gundam and the same-sex marriage debates. Solaire the knight (talk) 20:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense. I'll make a list of shows and choose those which I think have depth of information to add sections. I would think there are sources describing revival of BL anime in recent years.Historyday01 (talk) 21:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Update: It's still a work in progress, but in my sandbox a chart of what I found through looking through my copy of By Your Side (book) today. I won't say that EVERY entry on there will get a paragraph (obviously they will not), but I'll pick the ones I feel are the ones which "don't have issues in terms of sources and depth of information". Also, I'd update the sections for Sailor Moon, Dear Brother, Rose of Versailles, and Wandering Son. Apart from leaning toward mentioning Shiroi Heya no Futari, I'd love to have a section on Maria Watches Over Us in which I could mention a chapter in which she compares it to Bodacious Space Pirates, and seemingly sections for all of the following: Strawberry Panic!, Aoi Hana, Kase-san, Whispered Words, Bloom Into You, I'm in Love with the Villainess, and Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch from Mercury . But, definitely Given and other BL series should be added. Historyday01 (talk) 05:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

I think there is no need to rush to include everything; the most famous works will be enough to start with. Especially considering that the already mentioned MariMite is a rather tricky case (I'll always be grateful to Erica for helping people understand the difference between Class S and full-on lesbian romance). The main thing to remember is that you are writing about LGBTQ themes in anime and manga, and not just listing your favorite queer anime. For example, I think we could create a section about modern trends or milestones in the genre and mention G-Witch and modern adaptations of yuri and BL manga/LN there. While Bloom into you and Kase-san could be covered either in separate sections or in a single section about significant and influential lesbian themes in anime and manga. Solaire the knight (talk) 10:15, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Right, exactly. I'm not in any rush right now, I'm just gathering information right now. Creating a section about modern trends / milestones sounds like a good idea, and I'd support that. Historyday01 (talk) 14:01, 11 November 2024 (UTC)