Talk:History of Lakia

Thank you very much for corrections. Marat.

Dagestan

Let's be clear here: Dagestan, as a unified unit, did not exist until after 1859. Before that we had a proto-Dagestan which did not have the name, and then later we had a unified Dagestani anti-Russian resistance, but this resistance was Islamist in nature (largely to play down ethnic differences) and thus came under fire from the local elites, including Lak elites. This Dagestan, the first time the name is attested was not a Lak state by any means, and was indeed an Islamic mask for what was infact, an attempt of both an overthrow of the ancient Avar royal family as well as the domination of what became Dagestan and Chechnya by a group of militant Avars. You can't call that Lak statehood. Now, modern Dagestan is the closest you can get to a nation encompassing the area, but many of its supposed constituents - like the Kumyks - aren't particularly enthusiastic about the whole idea.

Historical Dagestan, if there is one, is more or less modern Dagestan minus Avaria, Kumykia and all north of them. --Yalens (talk) 16:42, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Reply. - The problem is that there are many ethnic groups in Dagestan, and some of them clearly don’t like at all to admit their past history where their ethnic group wasn’t dominant. For example Avars. The name Avar as ethnonym appeared only after the coming of Soviet administration in Dagestan, who began the process of registration of Dagestanian ethnic groups or nations – they numbered around 100 different groups or languages. Name Avar does belong to ethnicity whose self designation is ma’arulaw – but historically, it was a name of small territory surrounding Khunzakh, the residence of some rulers. The name Avar they adopted is a collective name of different ethnic groups, some of whom in fact speak their own language, don’t like the idea of being called Avars and feel their nationalistic feelings were suppressed. According to historians Shamkhalate of Kazi-Kumukh from 9th century up to 17th century that united the whole of Dagestan - did exist. It is confirmed by records of taxes collected by Shamkhal of Kazi-Kumukh that are given by Bakikhanov and others.

However, some historians assumed that the capital of Serir named in some sources as Humraj or Khumraj refers to the Khunzakh, the residence of Avar rulers. As such it was assumed that Khunzakh of Avars was a capital of Serirr or Dagestan and that as you said “Avar royal family”. However, what may be very important is that according to historical records, it is an undeniable fact that unapproachable fortress and the treasury of the king of Serir were in Kumukh of Laks. In the book, “The history of Avars”, it is confirmed by Avars themselves, that the king of Serir, after Arabs attacking his fortress, ran away from Kumukh to a place called Humraj or Khumraj. And it is only assumed that Humraj is Khunzakh of Avars.

As such when Laks talk about their state Shamkhalate, there are others in Dagestan who try to overthrow this historical fact, and start claiming that, well alright if there is historical evidence to it so be it, BUT, as they say, it was very different before the Shamkhalate: and some even try to say that the Shamkhalate of Laks had almoust nothing to do with the kingdom of Serir, and that it is only in opportunistic conditions that the Laks managed to establish their Shamkhalate state from the ruins of a Christian kingdom of Serir. However, as I said, the fact that the king of Serir had his stronghold and treasury in Kumukh named as “Alal and Gumik” is a fact, and that Humraj is Khunzakh of Avars is only an assumption. (Marat123)

Really, the Avars (Maarulab, Maarul, etc.), by rule of language alone have always been a numerous group. The only part of Avardom that is a Tsarist invention is the inclusion of Tsezic and Andic peoples, but even that's supposedly debatable (though I don't buy the Avar nationalist view there). But were the Avars a Dagestani group before the 1800s? Avaria existed separately - as did Kumykia- from Lak and Lezgin control. I will get to Sarir later, but there was an Ancient Avar family, whose long history ended with the beheading of their last queen, Pakhu Bike'. The Avars, or rather, the militant group around Shamil and his predecessors which didn't necessarily have the support of all of their kin, made themselves part of a Dagestan they invented (The Shining of Dagestani Swords in Certain Battles, the book), but previously, Avaria had been a separate domain. So it is fallacious to say that the Avars have been part of a Dagestan for a long time... (I will expand this) --Yalens (talk) 01:19, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yalens, what you have said above is right, I don’t object. As I said, Avar was a name of Khunzakh region. Of course Avar Khanate did exist, there is no doubt about it. I understand what you mean by Avars and Bakhu Bike. I’ll talk about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marat123 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

What I wanted to say on Serir... there was definitely a Serir centered in Kumukh. That doesn't mean that there wasn't, separately, at a separate time, an Avar kingdom that the Arabs called Serir. That term was just used by the Arabs, and it doesn't necessarily represent a single unit. A "Serir", i.e. a Christian kingdom with a golden throne will exist in one era run by Laks. The Laks are now Muslim, but alas, the Arabs come to the mountains again and find a Christian kingdom. Arabs will travel again to the Caucasus riding their camels, not knowing a thing about the place. They see a similar Christian kingdom with a pretty throne, and, "aha! It is the Serir mentioned in the scroll! Praise the great Allah!". So yes, I believe there was an Avar kingdom that the Arabs called Serir- the one that stupidly tried to conquer the Chechens- and there may have very well been a separate, Lak ruled one. But given modern-day Dagestani politics, every group wants to claim they have always been the the rulers, and that another ever had any moment of greatness is absurd. Hence, this possibility (which is probably the case, given the fuzzy names that not only Arabs, but also Romans, Byzantines, Greeks, or whoever give the place), is not even considered. And the names of ethnic groups, I think, don't equal their existence. Chechens have been called Chechens by Persia since the 800s, but it entered other languages in the 1800s. Does that mean we didn't exist as a group before the 1800s? Of course not! I'm not Dagestani, so I don't know all the stuff about Dagestan there is to know. But I think, nonetheless, we should dodge any interpretation of history that assigns one group God-given greatness and everyone else as their humble subjects. I think we can agree on that. --Yalens (talk) 16:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Yalens, I am not trying to say something which is not supported by historical narrations, as I give quotations from Bakikhanov, where for example Shamkhal in 8th century gained control of these territories: “Hamra, Kura, Kuba, Gulechan, Kurakh, Akhty, Khnov, Rutul, Zakhur, Kumuk, Avar, Karakh, Gidat, Tarki, Agran and Andri”. As you see Avar is included. Historian Shikhsaidov confirms it and writes that Shamkhal already in 8th century ruled Dagestan. And then, after many centuries in 1550th the situation is hardly changed: Shamkhal still rules the whole of Dagestan. Arab historian Yakut names the tribes of mountainous Dagestan as Lakz tribes, and the location exactly corresponds to the territories of Shamkhal in Southern Dagestan. Everyone calls his territory in Dagestan more or less according to their ethnic name, Tabassaran, Rutul, Agul, and certainly Lak, as Yakut himself tells that Lakz is called so because of Lak, who he says was the founder of the Kingdom.

Minorski tells "Serir wasn’t at all the original name of this country, but only an abbreviation of the title Sahib as-Serir (the king of the throne) that Arabs gave to the local king". As such, the original name of Serir, according to ethnic name must have been Lak. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marat123 (talk • contribs) 09:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I understand what you are saying. The problem is that historical narratives- and how they are interpreted- are subjective... nonetheless, I believe you are overall doing a great job. As for Avaria, yes, perhaps they had been subjugated by Dagestanis. However, the Avars also have a long history of their own kingdom, which ended with Pakhu Bike. Even one of the major modern problems of Dagestan (the dominance of the Avars over other groups, much to the chagrin of the latter), we should note, also stem from the Avars' large numbers, both a cause and a result of their status as a separate state entity throughout history. Modern Dagestan effectively, such, comprises three entities- the West (Avaria), the North (Kumyks, perhaps Nogai and Russians) and the South (historic Caucasian Albania in its core territory, i.e. not the periphery). --Yalens (talk) 01:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be best if, as you said you would, you simply made note of the long-running existence of Avaria (which ended in the 1800s). --Yalens (talk) 01:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Although I do have an inquiry about the 8th century control of the territories- were the Kumyks, by language now a Turkic group (even if they may not have originally been such), there yet (I know they were genetically, but linguistically/culturally, as the group called the Kumyks). --Yalens (talk) 01:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

In any case, you are doing a good job. --Yalens (talk) 01:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Yalens, I need to put a lock on the Russian version history of the Lak people, as someone is vandalising it. It’s urgent. How I can put a lock on the article so that no one can change it? The same is with this English version.Marat123 (talk) 12:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Try WP:RFPP. SpigotMap 12:47, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I am not good with locks (I've only done it once, and that was copy-paste, so I don't really remember). Try what Spigot says. --Yalens (talk) 20:28, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

The extent of Albania

Yalens, I’ve taken this part away:

"However, it is true that there were many states in the area separate from Albania that were set up, including Didoya (mentioned in the Georgian Chronicles, perhaps a state of the Dido people), Avaria (also known as Khundzia, as well as an assortment of other names) and others. Further to the West, the Chechens (or rather, their ancestors) set up the Zygii federation, the Nakh kingdoms, the state of "Dzurdzuketia", then the state of Simsir and finally Ichkeria (known by a multitude of names: Mitzjeghia, Michiki, Michketi)".

The problem is that it gives another point of view of some scholar, especially Azerbaijani who don’t like to say that Dagestan was part of Caucasian Albania, even though some of them say it was.

This reference number [8] is a book by a Dagestani historian - Д. М. Атаев. Дагестан и Кавказская Албания. Тезисы докладов на научной сессии ИИЯЛ. — Махачкала, 1959. С. 40-42. translated as - D. M. Ataev. Dagestan and Caucasian Albania. 1959. who argues that Dagestan was definitely part of Caucasian Albania.

Kay, I have a number of problems with this-

1. Dagestan is an ill-defined entity here. When you say Dagestan, people will interpret it to mean the current political Republic of Dagestan. But that is a Russian invention. A Dagestan that extended PAST the Terek never existed once in history before the 1800s. Even the Kumyk lands are largely foreign to historical Dagestan- in the magical times of Caucasian Albania, they were inhabited by the Massagetae, a Scythian tribe (perhaps ancestral to the modern Kumyks, considering the recurring pattern of Turkic peoples establishing themselves in places where Scythians had once been and mixing with them). Digging up the work of some, probably Dagestani (no doubt), scholar is not going to change this- if they ever paid tribute to any Dagestan-resembling state, it is tribute. That Russians paid tribute to the Tatars for 500 years does not make Russia part of Tatarstan.

2. This is not just some absurd Azerbaijani historian saying random things that are ridiculous. He has reasons for saying it. Whether the Avars called/call themselves Avars should not be, I believe, any bit relevant in this discussion. The Chinese have never called themselves Chinese, and the term China did not necessarily refer to the country always originally. But no one doubts the historical existence of China. Furthermore, it is not only some Azerbaijani saying this. It has currency among Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Chechens, Armenians, and the Georgian Chronicles also back the existence of Didoya and Avaria (Khundzia). Now, I could go much more into deeper depth about the affairs of these supposedly remote kingdoms (the Eastern neighbors of the Chechens), but that would be a little off-topic.

As a matter of fact Azerbaijanis clearly admit on Russian version of “Caucasian Albania” that Lezgian nations were part of Caucasian Albania. However there is an issue with this name – Lezgian. Before the October Revolution in 1917, or before the coming of Soviet administration to Dagestan, this name Lezgian wasn’t the self designation of any particular ethnic group in Dagestan, but was used by Persians, Turks and Russians as a name for all Dagestani tribes without exception. As such, prior to Russian administration in Dagestan “Lezgian” applied to all Dagestanis, however later in the times of Soviet administration it was used only by those in Southern Dagestan. This led to a confusion of who were the Lezgians before the Soviet or even Russian presence in Dagestan.

It is similar to the name Avar. Avar is not the first so to say self designation of Avars, as in their language they say ma’arulav. Avar is their second self designation, but before the coming of Russians it wasn’t the ethnic name at all: it came from the name of Khunzakh region. So Avar does indeed belong to Ma’arulavs as it is derived from the name of their territory. However, it’s very different with this name – Lezgian or Lezgi. Those who call themselves Lezgians now days use it as adopted name.

...I don't think Lezgins have much to do with this at all. I have never talked to any Lezgin, once, so I don't know about them. I know that generally in English, the term Lezgian is avoided, especially in speech, because it sounds like "lesbian", so people prefer Lezgin. Perhaps if the Andic peoples can be considered Avar is believable as a controversy, and perhaps there a controversy within that- if the Andi are separate, are the other Andic peoples (Botlikhs, etc.) Andian? But that is not the issue. But none of this can negate a certain historical truth- the Avars (and, until the Avars swallowed it up, the Dido peoples did once too) had a separate kingdom. The Avars had a separate kingdom, which we refer to as Avaria in English (and in various other languages), which is equivalent to a host of other terms.

So, no, I don't think that justifies the removal of completely legitimate, and yes, notable material. We even have a map showing "Khundzia" and "Didoya" somewhere on wiki, if I can fetch it... --Yalens (talk) 01:37, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Yalens, this author D. M. Ataev. Dagestan and Caucasian Albania. 1959, writes in his book that according to archeological findings the entire mountainous Dagestan was part of Caucasian Albania. The Lezgins strongly support this, meaning that Dagestan was part of Caucasian Albania. Didoya is in Southern Dagestan, and if we say it wasn’t part of Caucasian Albania, then it means the rest of mountainous Dagestan wasn’t as well. So this is problematic.

Yalens, I saw the map you or someone put there. I think it was a misunderstanding. If you mean that Didoya that it’s not a problem.

I am editing the page, do not change. Thanks. Marat123 (talk) 13:10, 24 August 2010 (UTC)