Talk:History of Rocky Mountain National Park

Problem citing Buccholtz's history and shortened footnotes

I'm going to join in the work of expanding this article and I would like to bring up an issue with citing C. W. Buchholtz's Rocky Mountain National Park: A History. This is still the standard narrative account of the Park's history. The web version posted by the National Park Service does not have any reference to page numbers but is broken up by chapter. While having this source available online is a great service, the lack of page numbers is unfortunate and unhelpful for our purposes. I'd like to suggest we cite the page numbers from the book (that is, if everyone has access to the book!) and simply refer to the url of the contents page of the web version that I referenced above. If we alternatively just use each chapter's url I'm afraid the cites will be imprecise and muddle-up the reflist. I'd further suggest the use of the shortened footnotes system (WP:SRF) here, before things get too far developed. In writing about the history of Rocky there are a limited number of sources, so we will be using a few sources like Buchholtz repeatedly. I think it will be easier in the long run, and look cleaner, if we use shortened footnotes, especially for these main sources of info. I'd be glad to help bring the small number of current cites into the SFN fold if there is consensus to go that route. Or we could take a hybrid approach. Thoughts? --KingJeff1970 (talk) 19:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I want to ensure that I'm not missing anything, and there's a lot here so I'm copying your comments and then breaking them up to respond to one-at-a-time.

I'm going to join in the work of expanding this article

Great, that you're stepping in to work on the article! Do you have a particular area of interest? I was working from the top down, but can absolutely shift my approach based on what you'd like to work on. I have more content in mind, including adding information about how artists and the railroad industry helped form the image and reputation of the park, for instance. And, of course, filling in the history which is currently spotty.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Since you seem to be working on early history, I thought I'd start with a paragraph or two on the founding of the park and go on from there. I'd like to try to summarize topics such as wildlife management, development of tourist/visitor facilities by the NPS, and other major management issues. --KingJeff1970 (talk) 00:32, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Wonderful!--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

and I would like to bring up an issue with citing C. W. Buchholtz's Rocky Mountain National Park: A History. This is still the standard narrative account of the Park's history. The web version posted by the National Park Service does not have any reference to page numbers but is broken up by chapter. While having this source available online is a great service, the lack of page numbers is unfortunate and unhelpful for our purposes. I'd like to suggest we cite the page numbers from the book (that is, if everyone has access to the book!) and simply refer to the url of the contents page of the web version that I referenced above. If we alternatively just use each chapter's url I'm afraid the cites will be imprecise and muddle-up the reflist.

I don't quite understand. Is this because you'd be adding citations using the book version? And, I have been using the webpage source? By the way, I don't have access to the book.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm concerned about consistency of citations. I suppose we may just have to use the web version and be less precise in the citations, just citing the individual chapter urls with no page numbers. --KingJeff1970 (talk) 00:32, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I'd further suggest the use of the shortened footnotes system (WP:SRF) here, before things get too far developed. In writing about the history of Rocky there are a limited number of sources, so we will be using a few sources like Buchholtz repeatedly. I think it will be easier in the long run, and look cleaner, if we use shortened footnotes, especially for these main sources of info. I'd be glad to help bring the small number of current cites into the SFN fold if there is consensus to go that route. Or we could take a hybrid approach. Thoughts? --KingJeff1970 (talk) 19:18, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I had planned on using other sources than Buccholtz, it's just that for the prehistoric info, he is the best source. But I am fine with using shortened footnotes. It works really well when most of the content comes from books. How do you handle shortened footnotes for magazines, newspapers, and websites (use the long citation in those cases, other)?--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:32, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

For mags, news and websites with no author given, see this info. Taking a hybrid approach where you just use SFN for those heavily used sources may work, too. I'll use it for Buchholtz and other repetitive sources and we can try to maintain some consistency as we go. Let's discuss any issues here as they come up. --KingJeff1970 (talk) 00:32, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand the link to the no author. But, a hybrid approach is fine with me.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Notes

As an FYI, I currently have this page where I have started notes about expanding the article - based upon what articles link to RMNP. And, that's all it is right now, a list. I haven't started working it to see what is applicable or not.

My approach for any article is to research first.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:38, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

As an FYI, right now I am working from this list from NPS.--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:04, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Additions to Founding a national park

Hi KingJeff1970,

While working on the Arapaho information, I came across interesting information about people who had lived in Estes Park before it was settled and helped name many of the parks area. See this book (<ref name="Law p. 76" />) and this article (<ref name="Arapaho knowledge">).

Is this something you'd like to add?--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:52, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Here's a stab at a section from Perry p. 17 and Law p. 76:

The Colorado Geographical Society arranged for two Arapaho elders to return to the park in 1914 and share their names of places before the U.S. Geological Society printed maps of the park. Some of the places in the park that bear Native American names are Nokhu Crags (“rocks where the eagles nest”), Kawuneechee (“coyote”) Valley, and Mount Neota (“mountain sheep’s heart”).

This article (<ref name="Arapaho knowledge">), which has more detail, says that they were invited by the Colorado Mountain Club.--CaroleHenson (talk) 06:23, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Good idea, I'll have to see where I can fit it in, or you can if I don't get that far. I don't have very much time to edit right now, but I may get to tonight. --KingJeff1970 (talk) 19:31, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, thanks! I went ahead and made the addition. Thanks for the updates to the Buchholtz citations!--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:54, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Texas Jack and the Earl of Dunraven

I am not seeing that Texas Jack Omohundro was the Earl of Dunraven's guide in Estes Park. The Hunting in the Yellowstone by Dunraven says that he was hunting in Estes Park when he received work to meet up with Texas Jack to go to Yellowstone. (page 52).

Is there any evidence that I'm missing that Texas Jack took Dunraven through Estes Park?--CaroleHenson (talk) 12:35, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

20th Century Environmental Events

I suggest a more general Environment Events section with 20th and 21st Century subsections. This shall include the natural disasters from the template {{Rocky Mountain National Park}}:

• Big Thompson River#1976 Flood (1976)
• Lawn Lake Dam flood (1982)
• Mountain pine beetle outbreak (1996+)

- DutchTreat (talk) 12:57, 11 August 2019 (UTC)