Talk:History of education in Wales before 1701/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Nominator: Llewee (talk · contribs) 14:37, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: It is a wonderful world (talk · contribs) 12:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Comments

I have fixed the very small errors myself. Let me know if you see any issue with the fixes. General themes were:

• Per MOS:DASH, there should be no spaces around em dashes.
• I replaced many semi-colons with commas, because the later clauses were dependent clauses. Semi-colons should only be used to separate two related but independent clauses.
• After many introductory clauses, or between independent clauses, I added commas to give the reader more time to process.

Everything below may require some discussion before changing.

Lead

some experiments in educating a wider group of children took place in the second half of the 17th century: What happened to these experiments?

This refers to the Thomas Gouge schools and Cromwell-era schools which are discussed latter. I don't want to include too much detail in the lead because these schemes both had limited success and were the first instances of a movement that really took of in the 18th century beginning with the founded of the SPCK in 1799.--Llewee (talk) 16:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Fair. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Women and girls were excluded from grammar schools and universities: Is "education" or "all education" better than "grammar schools and universities", especially since there were no universities in Wales?

There is some evidence that girls may have been allowed to attend certain elementary-level schools which is mentioned in the article; "Endowments for elementary schools often referenced "children" rather than "boys" or "scholars", suggesting that they might have admitted girls."--Llewee (talk) 16:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Ah yes, my bad. For some reason I forgot about elementary schooling. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Roman and medieval eras

The impact of the Black Death and the Glyndŵr rebellion harmed the Welsh elite's prospects for education: How and to what extent?

The Black Death killed many people (possibly half of people). This caused an economic crisis which negatively effected the church, which was the main provider of education. After Owain Glyndwr was defeated Welshmen were prohibited from working for the government.--Llewee (talk) 14:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Could this information be added to the article for context? Something like:

"The Welsh elite's prospects for education were harmed by the economic impact of the Black Death, and by Welshmen being prohibited from working for the government due to the Glyndŵr rebellion" It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:59, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Done--Llewee (talk) 12:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

, but there was a steady expansion in the 15th century: Was it really steady if it was being harmed by the Glyndŵr rebellion?

There was a slow economic recovery and Welshmen began to be unofficially accepted back into the government. This began to have an effect on education, especially in the second half of the century.--Llewee (talk) 14:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Since we are not referring to the whole of the 15th century, as the beginning of the period saw the Glyndŵr rebellion, "there was a steady expansion for the rest of the 15th century" seems more precise? It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:53, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Done (with some additional clarity)--Llewee (talk) 12:28, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

In Wales, formal education remained almost entirely dominated by the Church until after 1500: "after 1500" is extremely vague, can a more precise timing be used like "the mid-16th century"?

It is discussed in the next paragraph so I'd prefer to avoid repetition--Llewee (talk) 16:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Yep that's fine. It is a wonderful world (talk) 20:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

16th and 17th centuries

There was some criticism of this approach at the time: Is WP:WEASEL wording, is it possible to provide who criticized this approach?

The source mentions some teachers, John Amos Comenius and Francis Drake. They all had slightly different criticisms which would be difficult to condense quickly. I don't like including too much detail about theoretical ideas because it might confuse readers about what actually happened.--Llewee (talk) 15:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Yep that's fine. It is a wonderful world (talk) 17:01, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

For instance one school in Montgomeryshire described its aim in 1549 as being to teach "young beginners only to write and sing, and to read so far as the Accidence Rules, but no grammar": : Per WP:V, an inline citation should always be added to support a direct quote.

Done--Llewee (talk) 13:38, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

A 1650 Act appointed a commission that established sixty schools in Wales: I think this act should be named mainly for indexing purposes.

done--Llewee (talk) 18:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Since this is now also a direct quote (I think), it will need an inline citation. It is a wonderful world (talk) 21:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

I have taken out the quotation marks as they are not usual for an act of parliament.--Llewee (talk) 15:30, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

to teach the poor Welsh children to read and write English, cast Accompts [numeracy] and repeat the Catechism: I think a wikitionary link should be added to Accompts.

done--Llewee (talk) 17:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

The Society for the Promotion of Christian Knowledge (SPCK) was founded in 1699 with similar aims: I think it would be useful to add in what this organisation went on to do.

Added brief overview, it's discussed in more detail in the next article.--Llewee (talk) 17:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Languages of instruction

Apart from the minor edits I have made, all looks good here.

Universities

This expansion in demand was partially due to the same factors as the expansion in lower levels of education: A very quick summary may be appropriate here, to aid readers who are only interested in the university section

done--Llewee (talk) 14:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

, but those figures are probably underestimates: Little bit unclear, are they estimating the actual attendance, or something else?

The number of Welshmen who were registered, other men might of attended who weren't registered.--Llewee (talk) 15:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

This could be more precise, e.g.

", but there were likely more students who attended but did not register" It is a wonderful world (talk) 09:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

done--Llewee (talk) 14:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

A substantial number of Welsh students used this method: The citation states somewhat the opposite of this: "some were also of the poorest"

Sorry, I must have misunderstood this at the time. Corrected.--Llewee (talk) 14:46, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Those progressing onto a Master's degree studied a wider range of fields: Would a few examples be possible here?

done--Llewee (talk) 15:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

One such motivated scholar was Edward Carne from Ewenny in the Vale of Glamorgan, who had a celebrated legal career and eventually became an ambassador: I think the article should mention what Carne became an ambassador for, or omit that fact entirely.

Clarified--Llewee (talk) 14:48, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Sourcing spot check

[1]: The Pearce source does not support the statement "Writing tablets have been recovered from the Roman military fort of Isca Augusta (modern-day Caerleon, Newport)"—It does not mention Isca Augusta at all. What source says it was specifically Isca Augusta and not somewhere else in Caerleon?

This was a mistake, I will change it to Caerleon.--Llewee (talk) 15:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

[2]: No issues

[5]: No issues

[6]: No issues

[9]: No issues

[12]: "For example, tutors employed to educate the offspring of the wealthy might expand their lessons to a wider group of children" makes this practice seem a lot broader and more prolific than the book does.

I have changed "might expand" to "occasionally expanded".--Llewee (talk) 16:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

[14]: No issues

[15]: No issues

[17]: No issues

[22]: No issues

[23]: No issues

[26]: No issues

[28]: As mentioned in the comments, the source does not back up the statement "A substantial number of Welsh students used this method".

answered in the universities section--Llewee (talk) 16:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Images

Licensing is good on both the images, I think the article would benefit from an image of Thomas Gouge and Jesus College though.

done--Llewee (talk) 18:04, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Double check from the mentorship programme

The review looks to be of high quality. The article is of high-quality, making it more difficult to find clear things to improve. Well done as a first review :).

• One comment goes beyond what's expected in an GA (such as the m-dashes). In general, detailed formatting is usually a FAC criterion.
• There is one bit of guideline that a GA article does not yet meet, and that is to avoid MOS:REDUNDANCY in the first sentence (as part of MOS:LEAD).
• For Llewee, if you want to bring this article to WP:FAC, you might benefit from WP:REDEX, to be more economical with words. For instance: "In the 15th century, knowledge of English and Latin was one of various forms of education which was seen as increasingly valuable by the Welsh social elite" can be rewritten as "In the 15th century, English and Latin knowledge became increasingly valued by the Welsh social elite.". —Femke 🐦 (talk) 16:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you so much for this! It is a wonderful world (talk) 16:46, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Femke, I will have a look.--Llewee (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Llewee Just a reminder that the only point you are yet to address in the MOS:REDUNDANCY in the lead. Once this has been fixed I will pass review. It is a wonderful world (talk) 13:08, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I have responded to this.--Llewee (talk) 13:22, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.