Talk:History of monarchy in the United Kingdom

Proposed WP:SPLIT and WP:MERGE

The rationale for this proposal is that the United Kingdom did not exist officially until 1801, and cannot be said to have existed unofficially before 1707. Although the country was officially called the Kingdom of Great Britain from 1707 to 1800, I believe it is reasonable to regard Anne and the first three Georges as monarchs of a "united kingdom" for the purposes of this article. As the article presently stands, it is de facto a history of the English monarchy with extras about Scotland and Ireland and then an aftermath of 1707.

The proposal is that the first two sections of the article are split as follows:

1. English monarchy to History of the English monarchy (currently a redirect) — scope from Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain to Acts of Union 1707
2. Scottish monarchy to History of the Scottish monarchy — scope from Kenneth MacAlpin to Acts of Union 1707

Also, Irish monarchy to be merged into Monarchy of Ireland.

In addition, I suggest a change of title from History of monarchy in the United Kingdom to History of the United Kingdom monarchy to emphasise that the UK is a state. The current title implies a geographical entity in a similar sense to an article called History of monarchy in Europe.

Within this article, the first four sections including Union of the Crowns and republican phase should be converted into a concise background summary which explains the historical and political reasons for the Acts of Union. Sections 5 and 6 (After the 1707 Acts of Union and Shared monarchy and modern status) can then form the basis of the article.

I don't believe any kind of rename will solve the problem, certainly not anything which includes "British" because England and Scotland were entirely separate and independent until 1707. Using Great Britain in its geographical sense does not help as explained above.

I am advising Ltwin as principal author, of this proposal, and also the members of both WP:UK and WP:BROY. PearlyGigs (talk) 16:20, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@PearlyGigs, I think splitting the article along the lines you suggest would be a good idea. I had always envisioned splitting them eventually because each country's history by itself deserves its own article. Ltwin (talk) 16:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Ltwin, and thanks for the quick response. Given that you intend to do it anyway and also there is WP:NORUSH on this site, maybe we should set the proposals aside for now and do whatever is desired when we are ready to do it? If I can help you in any way, please give me a shout. Best wishes. PearlyGigs (talk) 19:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@PearlyGigs, I have no objections if you want to go ahead a do it now. If we split them now, it may give some editor the motivation to build up the Scottish article. And they are going to have to be split eventually anyway, might as well do it now. Ltwin (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Hi again, Ltwin. I'll be happy to do that if you wish. As you say, new articles may well attract new editors. I'd better leave it a week, though, in case other editors come forward to join this discussion. There has to be a consensus within a reasonable time. PearlyGigs (talk) 21:05, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

@PearlyGigs, I went ahead and copied the English monarchy section to History of the English monarchy. For now, I think it would be best if we keep a brief summary of the English history until other parts of the article are more developed. Ltwin (talk) 05:23, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@PearlyGigs in regards to the title, I chose the current title because it matched History of monarchy in Canada and History of monarchy in Australia. Even though it seemed odd to me, I just followed existing precedent. I suppose it could be changed to History of the monarchy of the United Kingdom. Ltwin (talk) 21:01, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Ltwin. I do apologise as I'd forgotten all about this (horrendous issues at work this month!). I agree entirely with the English monarchy split and keeping the summary. Also, I think History of the monarchy of the United Kingdom is the best choice for renaming, as you've suggested. I'll look at Scotland and make a start on History of the Scottish monarchy. I'm not sure if we need to do anything with Ireland as it's already a short summary. What do you think? PearlyGigs (talk) 07:01, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

@PearlyGigs, I agree that the Ireland section works as is for now. I'm sure it can be improved, but it's not my priority right now. And as you've already said, the Monarchy of Ireland article already exists so there is no need to go into too much detail here. I am working on summarizing the English monarchy sections right now. Once that's finished, the article size should be significantly reduced. Right now the prose size stands at 11,235 words, which is quite big. Ltwin (talk) 23:48, 23 July 2024 (UTC)