Talk:History of the Jews in Egypt

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 August 2019 and 5 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Daniel1095.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:28, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Maddyrehling48.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Moving the Bible from "Egyptian Jews in fiction."

It is incredibly insulting to place the Bible as fiction. The Bible should be moved into it's own section or completely omitted since there is a separate article for the subject.Mrabinovsky (talk) 03:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

No evidence for jewish slave armies building the pyramids has ever been discovered by archaeologists. Not one thing. So either they picked up and carried off every single item they ever owned over generations and carried it away through the Desert for 40 years(a trip which should have taken days) or exodus is a fairy tale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.170.14.3 (talk • contribs)

Thank you, Captain Obvious! tgeorgescu (talk) 05:22, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Tgeorgescu there is also no evidence in the Bible that Jews built the pyramids. your critique is irrelevant. The Bible claims Jews built store cities, the pyramids are never mentioned. OrmanRedwood (talk) 15:51, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Philadelphus

The link at the end of the following sentence links to the wrong Philadelphus article.

"Josephus also claims that, soon after, these 120,000 captives were freed of their bondage by Philadelphus."

It's way beyond my knowledge to attempt to fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.149.68 (talk) 19:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The Bible is not a historical text

It should not be relied upon as such. Giving "facts" about history with citations to Bible verses is not appropriate.--Funnyguy555 08:31, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I know your comment was years ago, but I still want to counter your statement for the record. While the Bible is not a history book in the modern scholarly sense - in that an exact and objective account of history is its primary intent - it does contain and speak to a great deal of history. Perhaps your reservation comes from the fact that the Bible is a religious text? I would argue that a primary source is a primary source, whether it is a religious text or a copy of a business transaction. Or perhaps you are concerned about subjectivity and bias in the Bible? It has to be admitted that the Bible is not entirely without bias, but even the historical accounts of ancient historians are not without some degree of bias, whether it is Herodotus, Pliny, Tacitus, or Josephus. The Bible is an historical text, and references to relevant sections of the Bible as primary source material are as appropriate as any other primary source references in a discussion of history. Silmalel File:User Silmalel SigPic3.PNG 03:17, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

I know your comment was years ago, but I still want to counter your statement for the record because I very much disagree with you. The Bible is not a history book in the modern scholarly sense - it is not an exact and objective account of history in its primary intent and while it does contain and speak to a great deal of history that must be interpreted extremely carefully. Perhaps your objection comes from the fact that the Bible is a religious text? I would argue that a primary source is a primary source, whether it is a religious text or a copy of a business transaction, and be subject to exactly the same levels of analysis of intent, context, propaganda and biases both intentional and unintentional. Doing so to the Bible reveals an impressive, layered multitude of levels of composition, by various authors and groups, with various intentions and worldviews. And as with all historical documents it must be confronted repeatedly with reanalysis, especially in light of improved archaeological understanding. The Bible is an historical text, and references to relevant sections of the Bible as primary source material are as appropriate as any other primary source references in a discussion of history, and should be treated with precisely the same suspicion as any other text. The likes of Herodotus, Pliny, Tacitus and Josephus make many statements that are supported by archaeology and by other contemporary witnesses. This is true of parts of the Bible. It is categorically not the case for other parts of the Bible - some of which are within paragraphs of "confirmed" segments. Perhaps you're very sensitive to the Bible being treated in the same manner as any other primary source? 86.140.164.14 (talk) 21:22, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Modern Period

The modern period is written as a Zionist tract,i.e. oppression rising and the need to emigrate to Israel, ignoring the complex identities within the Egyptian Jewish communities. The use of a collective 'the Jews of Egypt' simply doesn't hold water. I suggest one harvest Gudrun Krämer's The Jews in Modern Egypt, 1914–1952, and Joel Beilin's book on the diaspora there, with primary use of the former. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nishidani (talk • contribs) 14:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I too have a problem with this aspect, especially in the lead-in where it states "In the late 1950s, Egypt expelled its Jewish population and sequestered Jewish-owned property." There is no source for this text and, additionally, it does not match the detailed section. Erictheenquirer (talk) 11:26, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Roman Period

I see no mention of the fact that the Jewish community in Roman Egypt was subject to one of the most ferocious massacres, in which the Roman army slaughtered some 100,000 Jews in the late Ist early 2nd century. That is a fundamental fact and should be remarked on. In some detail.Nishidani 14:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Attacked by Franks???

The article states the Alexandria was again attacked by "Franks" in 1416. The Franks were a Germanic tribe that settled in parts of France during late antiquity. They, or their French ancestors, certainly were not still around in 1416 attacking Egypt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.130.226.220 (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

In the Middle Ages, Muslims called Western Europe Frangistan ("the land of the Franks") and called all Western Europeans, regardless of where they were from "Franks", which explains why King Richard Cœur de Lion of England is described as a "Frankish" king in the Muslim sources (through the fact that Richard spoke French as his first language also helped) . As the Frankish kingdom, from where the name France originated, was the most powerful state in Western Europe the 8th century AD, which is the origin of the name Frangistan. I agree that the Franks were not around in 1416, but I think somebody is just using the term from a Muslim source, which would have called anybody from the West "Franks". Note also the Muslims always called the four states first set up in the Middle East after the First Crusade the "Frankish" states, from that might also been a reference to the fact that most of the knights on the First Crusade were French and French was the language spoken in the Kingdom of Jerusalem, Principality of Antioch, the County of Tripoli and the County of Edessa. Even today, Iranians use the term "Frankish" to describe people from the West, so if an Iranian is wearing Western clothing, then he or she is dressed in the "Frankish" style. I hope this clears matters up. Cheers!--A.S. Brown (talk) 10:32, 9 November 2018 (UTC)

"Even today, Iranians use the term "Frankish" to describe people from the West"

Greeks use the term "Franks" for Western Europeans also. The term Frankokratia ("rule of the Franks") is used for the rule of the various Crusader states, which were created in the aftermath of the Fourth Crusade. Covering roughly the period from 1204 to 1715. Dimadick (talk) 12:01, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Historical evidence for the Exodus slave narrative

http://ohr.edu/838 Not even recent. http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Egypt-Evidence-Authenticity-Tradition/dp/019513088X http://worldview3.50webs.com/exodus.html lots of references in the page itself, paragraph by paragraph.

This open hateful derision of the Torah as historically accurate undermines the credibility and perceived fairness of Wikipedia. If Wiki wants to be taken seriously this kind of open prejudice has to go. 108.132.224.7 (talk) 01:38, 1 July 2012 (UTC)David

"more than a century of archaeological research has discovered nothing which could support its narrative elements"

I'm not a researcher of the subject, so I really don't know, but let me ask: This publication has no serious value on this matter? http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Israel-Sinai-Authenticity-Wilderness/dp/0199731691 Please, do copy my e-mail in any comments you have: samuelsiqueira@gmail.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.208.148.26 (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

The short answer, given you specified "serious value", is "no". 86.140.164.14 (talk) 21:25, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

Overlap with Jewish exodus article

Please see discussion at Talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Overlap_with_.22History_of_the_Jews_in....22_articles. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:09, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

How come Jews have settled in Egypt seeing that Deut. 17:16 forbids it?

213.109.230.96 (talk) 04:56, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

 I would answer this question with another question first.  Why do Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, Seikhs, etc., violate thier own religious beliefs every day?  Because they're people.  Anyway, this is hardly the forum for such a conversation. Cheers!Bristus (talk) 17:14, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

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permission to rename article

Can we please rename it History of Jewish People in Egypt? It seems more respectful and pc. Jew can be a derogatory word if used bitterly.Littlepersonlavalamp (talk) 18:28, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Editing History of the Jews in Egypt

In the article "The History of Jews in Egypt" I intend to add more in depth information on the population size of Egyptian Jews and the forms of self-governance amongst the Jews. I will also add the information of the different positions Jews held in government. I will use The Jews of Arab Lands: A History and Sourcebook by Norman A. Stillman as a secondary source. Stillman is a credible source because he is a professor that is specialized in the culture of the Jewish and Islamic people and is knowledgeable about their history. I will not delete present information, but I will add more information about the Jewish Egyptians that isn’t already expressed. On this talk page, please let me know if anyone wants to comment on these changes.Maddyrehling48 (talk) 00:07, 25 November 2018 (UTC)Maddyrehling48

Rewriting the Mamluke section

Hi, I am a student (Daniel1095) who is making it a project to fix this section of the article. I agree with the previous comments at least partially in that this article does not reference a sufficient number of non-bias sources. I'm not quite sure what anti-semitism has to do with this article, but I mainly want to focus on what happened to Jews under mamluke rule and where we can still see some of its influence today.

In order to accomplish this, I believe it will require rewriting this section. I start with discussing how the Mamlukes rose up in a time of chaos in the mid 13th century and began to reinstitute control through institutionalizing Sufism. Next, I’d discuss how Jews came into contact and reacted to Sufi mysticism. Then I would tie that to how mystic ideas would influence Judaism to the point that it would trigger the creation of a new sect, Pietists. I would then explore the similarities between pietists and Sufi practices and beliefs. I would also make a point in discussing the rich literary history of the pietist movement as well as details of the leaders that would make it grow rapidly. In addition to writing about the development of the pietist, I would definitely mention Jewish opposition to this new movement and finally its demise in the subsequent centuries. Lastly, I would end on the legacy of Sufism on Judaism today especially in the Karaite community where many pietist traditions still hold true.

Here is the main source I will be working with: Fenton, Paul. Muslim-Jewish Relations in the Middle Islamic Period. Bonn University Press. 2017 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Daniel1095 (talk • contribs) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 17:04, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 100.6.68.143 (talk) 15:44, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:06, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion was closed, so no further point in this. --Eliyahu S ^Talk 15:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Abraham Maimonides and The Guide for the Perplexed

As presently written, the article claims that Abraham Maimonides wrote The Guide for the Perplexed when in fact it was his father who was the author, as the #Works subsection in his page makes clear. This needs more correction than I have time to give it now, so I've slapped a dubious tag on it. --Eliyahu S ^Talk 15:50, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Reverting commentary

Reverting the commentary of a Harvard full professor who is a conservative Jew is in bad taste. The idea that the Israelites built the pyramids has to do with Hollywood movies rather than with real history.

It's a quote from a course that has been taught at Harvard and recorded and published by Beardsley Ruml under a copyleft license. See for details: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/hebrew-bible/free-hebrew-bible-course-with-shaye-cohen/ tgeorgescu (talk) 10:14, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

(Came here because of the post on [WP:FTN]) It's a quote from the lecture notes of an online class: http://courses.biblicalarchaeology.org/hebrewbible/notes/09-Notes.pdf - I think it would be wise to find a published, scholarly source. Directly quoting a lecture outline is like quoting the table of contents. Niftysquirrel (talk) 18:00, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

About Israelites did not build the pyramids!!! I don't think you gonna find that in a treatise of archaeology. What you're gonna find is a total absence of the claim that the Israelites did build the pyramids.

But I have found it in:

1. Hamilton, Adam (2020). Words of Life: Jesus and the Promise of the Ten Commandments Today. Crown Publishing Group. p. 17. ISBN 978-1-5247-6055-7.
2. Wylen, Stephen M. (2014). "Chapter Ten: Passover". Settings of Silver: An Introduction to Judaism. Paulist Press. p. fn. 6. ISBN 978-1-61643-498-4.
3. Siskinson, Chris (2013). "5. Meet the natives Egypt in the Bible". Time Travel to the Old Testament. InterVarsity Press. p. PT93. ISBN 978-1-78359-010-0.

Over the Exodus:

1. Watanabe, Teresa (April 13, 2001). "Doubting the Story of Exodus". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved June 23, 2019.
2. Tugend, Tom (2001-04-26). "Furor over L.A. rabbi's reading of Exodus". Jewish Telegraphic Agency. Retrieved 2021-04-19.

Copy/pasted from David Wolpe. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Add a "Jews in Ancient Egypt" section?

I am wondering if we should add a "Jews in Ancient Egypt" section if for no other reason that someone who looks this article up might expect it to be here. I'm thinking the section might just be a little bit of text stating there's no hard evidence for Jews in particular being in Egypt, though many semitic groups were in Egypt during the Middle and New kingdoms, with a redirect to the article on the Exodus. OrmanRedwood (talk) 15:53, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Appropriateness of Shaye JD Cohen’s comments on Hebrews in Egypt

I feel like the quote by Cohen on Hebrews in Egypt isn’t very appropriate for the article. It’s not clear in the quote itself that he means that there were no Hebrews in Egypt, as the article seems to imply, but specifically that MOST Hebrews were of native Canaanite stock who's ancestors were not from Egypt. Since the quote is unclear on what Cohen actually meant, I don’t think it’s a good one to cite for his position.

Also the second half of the quote just seems irrelevant. While it may be a somewhat common misconception that Hebrews built the pyramids, that’s not actually what the Hebrew Bible states. It’s not relevant to the topic of the subsection about the Biblical account of Hebrews in Egypt. 2603:7080:1E3A:5658:810E:9312:74C5:7D8B (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Number of Jewish People in Egypt

Are there really only 3 Jewish People in Egypt? I find that incredibly hard to believe. How verified is this statistic? 2601:600:8D01:A3B0:89B3:E1B:C0BE:5E8 (talk) 04:25, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I was just noticing that as well. Neither of the sources that are cited for that actually make this claim (one says there's estimated to be less than 20 Jewish People, and the other says no number at all). I noticed this on the Jews in Syria and other countries as well.

There's obviously no way to verify this claim to begin with, you can't have a definitive number like that; only an estimate at best. But even then, these articles are largely anecdotal, with no actual research done. 100.0.52.250 (talk) 23:12, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm removing it. 100.0.52.250 (talk) 23:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

One of the cited sources ([1]) did literally say that; next time, check carefully. That said, whoever added that source to begin with should not have overwritten the other sourced number, which screws up text-source integrity and causes this exact kind of confusion. The source was still in the infobox but I've removed it anyways ([2]) because it's a personal blog and thus not a reliable source. R Prazeres (talk) 17:27, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@R Prazeres Which source? because the most up-to-date source says there are 3 Egyptian Jews _in Cairo_, not all of Egypt. Antigravity711 (talk) 01:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Please re-read my response above. That's what the lead already says. R Prazeres (talk) 04:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)