Talk:History of the Jews in Poland/Archive 1

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Old talk

I removed few irrelevant items from the timeline. I would consider removing it from here altogether, since it repeats already existing material (you know where). Humus sapiens 00:17, 12 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Geeez, out of more than 1000-years long history of Jews in Poland 80% of the article is about some bunch of morons. This article needs some serious revision, and I'll try to fill in the gaps myself - as soon as I finish my other projects. Anyone willing to help? Halibutt 22:44, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've read a great deal about Soviet-backed persecution during the 1950s, which this article doesn't seem to cover. func(talk) 06:29, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, I agree with you 100% - this is a page about History of the Jews in Poland not about contemporary anti-semitism in Poland. I am willing to help by starting with some links and bibliography. --Ttyre 21:46, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Halibutt, other pages covering history of the Jews in Europe are utilizing material from Jewish Encyclopedia. Since this encyclopedia was compiled between 1901-1906, Poland is included in the Russia section and covers period 996-1795 Jewish Encyclopedia. I think this is a great start. --Ttyre 19:04, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

1989-Present

I have revised the 1989-Present section adding more pertinent to the article's subject material and deleting extremely detailed list of examples of anti-Semitism in contemporary Poland. In my opinion, this list doesn't belong to Wiki. ADL [1] for years has been recording all examples of anti-Semitism around the world. Additionally, similar list was not compiled and included in wiki's pages for countries where anti-Semitism is a serious problem (e.g. France, Great Britain, Germany, Russia) - somebody's PVO? --Ttyre 22:21, 2 May 2005 (UTC)

"Jewish traders are very active in Central Europe, mainly engaged in trading" Wow, amazing that Jewish traders are mainly involved in trading!!!

NPOV

For contrast, please see Anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_Poland. So far, it only deals with pre-partitions anti-semitism (read: it only deals with the tip of the iceberg). HKT 03:03, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Actually, this article is written with very NPOVish attitude. It should be edited ASAP. It does mention every single atrocity, many of which are alleged, while not mentioning privileges, causes of the anti-semitism etc. Szopen 07:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Which article are we talking about? And why is this (History of...) disputed, I see no objections raised - it does cover all historical period? It may be incomplete, as Szopen points out, but hardly POVed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:15, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Often, lack of completion causes an article to be one-side, and I think this is a case in point. HKT 19:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

No. It does not discuss anti-semitism on the part of the Poles. Instead of posting a lot of stuff that could be added, please see the link above, as I wrote, for contrast. This, of course, should not be an article about Polish anti-semitism. Neither should it ignore it. And Szopen: "It does mention every single atrocity, many of which are alleged, while not mentioning privileges, causes of the anti-semitism etc." What are you talking about? "Every single atrocity?!" I repeat, see Anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_Poland. HKT 17:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I read it, not bad that bad. I fixed some ilinks and expaned a little, it should be less POVed now, although there is the issue wheter the 20th info should be added to this or the next (entitled 20th century) section (we should discuss it on the other article talk page, though, it is rather OT here). I do however think that the quotes (mostly from 18th and 19th sources) are one-sided and most definetly POVed (rivers of blood, nice poetry, rather less historical :>), though as I have no others at hand, I don't mind them - when sb has the right material and will, he will improve this. Same for this (history) article - it is poorly structured and could use lots of editing as well, although from what i see it is not POVed much. And since we have the anti-semitism in Poland section in the other article, I see no great urgency in adding it here, as long as it is linked. ALthough I do think some sort of merger/more cross-referencing would be useful. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:43, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus, thank you for you edits on Anti-Semitism#Anti-Semitism_in_Poland. They are good and they improve the neutrality of the article. (But where did I include anything in there about "rivers of blood?" Furthermore, I took two quotes from eighteenth century sources that were admittedly POV, but were brought to highlight attitudes of the time. I took one sixteenth century source from the responsum of a Jewish scholar renowned for his credibility. Also, I only took one nineteenth century quote (1896) - it was from a historian and was almost a twentieth century quote. Furthermore, his work was republished many times throughout the twentieth century as a reputable secondary source. Other than that, I cited six twentieth/twenty-first century sources). I agree to your assessment of this History... Poland article, except that I think the ommisions generate POV (that's why I tagged the article). I agree that a merge would be in order. HKT 19:24, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

I have removed NPOV label... moved chronological section to History of the Jews in Poland Chronology and have replaced it with Jewish Encyclopedia text for 966-1795 period. --Ttyre 03:02, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the removed info should be used to expand and improve the text you added in, and there is no need for a separate chronology article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:14, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree, but didn't have time and energy to merge them. --Ttyre 21:33, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My Changes

I did some substantial edits to the History section, since the Jewish Encyclopedia is very verbose and has way too much useless info. It took forever, but I don't think I cut anything critical. I also added more info to, and reorganized, the World War II section. Please let me know any comments. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't quite understand your comments about ...censoring details about Jedwabne. The estimated number of Jews murdered in Jedwabne is ~300 not Gross' 1,600 according to official Final Findings of Poland's Institute of National Remembrance see: [2]. The Final Findings deal also with German participation in the massacre. Extensive collection of articles on the subject could be also found at: [3] and [4]. Additionally, I am unsure why you have also removed the sentence about the motives of Jedwabne and other cities' Polish inhabitants behind the massacres? Are you disputing the fact that this was the primary motivation of those committing the murders? Response to your questioning of the Jewish Ghetto Police complicity is included in Talk:Warsaw Ghetto. --Ttyre 20:22, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I am disputing that the primary reason for the massacre was resentment of the Jewish assistance to the communists. Certainly that may be a reason, and the most comfortable to acknowledge, but there is no mention in the final statement of IPN of that being the motivation, other sources also describe the cause as motivated by antisemtism or greed. Please prove that this is the cause, but, in any case, it seems like an excuse for the slaughter of the men, women, and children of the town -- "the Jews persecuted us, so we killed them." Unless you can demonstrate this is the case in the 20+ pogroms the sentence should go.

The final findings support that there was little or no direct German assistance, why did you remove that? Finally, the figures should represent the range, not the lowest number, though I agree that we need not include only the 1600 number, I have mde that change.

Further, the geocities site is a pretty nasty apologist site - it doesn't express anything like the current concensus view, and dates from the original Polish reaction in 2001, not after the IPN report and the President's apology. In any case, the edits, plus the addition of some Jewish complicity in the Warsaw Ghetto, seemed to me to be entirely based on minimizing any thought that the Poles might be involved in any aspect of the Holocaust. I tried to be very NPOV in my edits, leaving in evidence of Polish good deeds, but we should also acknowledge that there were many Poles who were complicit, or did nothing about, the slaughter of the Jews at the time, just as there were many Poles who suffered to save the Jews. A good article should include both aspects, good and bad. That is why the issue about the Ghetto police seemed ill-placed, taken in context with your other edits.

--Goodoldpolonius2 22:53, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

CORRECTIONS: the IPN's estimate is not '~300' but 'at least 340', with the caveat that since the exhumations could not be completed a more accurate number could not be ascertained. A demographic study by Marcin Urynowicz in the same report estimates the number of Jews in Jedwabne on the day of the massacre at "approximately 1000" of whom only "tens" survived. A better numerical estimate therefore would be 340-950, or perhaps 350-950 to appear less pedantic. Also 1,600 was not Gross's estimate, but rather the accepted number of victims, which appeared on the commemorative plaque in the town and which no one questioned as long as it was believed that the Germans had been the perpetrators. Ibegtodiffer 19:23, 14 December 2005 (UTC) ibegtodiffer

First of all, I am interested in a civil approach to resolving different points of view on wiki. Thus, I am not interested in the revert war - please refrain from this useless method as well. Let's try to bridge the gaps by discussing them here first.

• I am interested in a civil approach as well, my reverts were not blanket, but targeted and explained. Lets try to work them out before we do other changes, and I appreciate your willingness to talk.

Number of victims in Jedwabne. Gross is the only author mentioning the 1,600 number. With his limited access to Polish archives I trust the numbers provided in the Final Findings of Poland's Institute of National Remembrance - ~300. The origin of Gross' 1,600 is discussed in an interview with Institute of National Remembrance director Dr. Machcewicz who says: According to the general census of 1931 in Jedwabne there were 2,167 inhabitants, including 60% Poles. After the outbreak of war the people of the town began to migrate. Jan Jerzy Milewski, historian of the Białystok Division of the Institute of National Memory, brought a 1940 NKVD document from the archive in Grodno showing that at that time in Jedwabne there were about 560 Jews. I don't think that today we can state exactly how many Jews there were in Jedwabne on July 10, 1941. [5]. The Final Findings states also: The figure of 1,600 victims or so seems highly unlikely, and it was not confirmed in the course of the investigation. Other sources mention also ~150 Jedwabne Jews who survived/escaped the massacre.

• But the final finding's very next sentence continues: "On the day of the crime, people of Jewish origin from, among others, Wizna and Kolno were certainly in Jedwabne seeking shelter there." It seems obvious that we are not limited to the original population of the town. I can't read Polish, but I didn't see the 350 number stated conclusively anywhere, while the 1,600 has never been retracted by Gross and is cited in many locations (it even seems to be on a plaque in the town itself when everyone assumed this was a German massacre[6]!). Saying the range is from 360 (IPN figure) to 1600 (Gross figure) seems fair. It is clear there is no definitive answer, yet. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• German participation. The Final Finding of IPN says: Numerous witnesses who have been questioned state that uniformed Germans arrived at Jedwabne on that day. Those Germans, who were probably in a small group, assisted in driving the people who were being persecuted to the market place and their active role was limited to that. It is unclear, in the light of the evidence collected, whether the Germans took part in escorting the victims to the place of mass murder, and whether they were present at the barn. Witness testimonies in this respect vary considerably. [7] And Dr. Machcewicz: In my opinion, and I base it on documents, there were 8 to 11 policemen, several Gestapo, or, in total, there could have been from a dozen to twenty or so Germans, armed with firearms. They were helped by Poles, who tormented the Jews and murdered them... [8]. According to these quotes and other articles [9] there is no question of the German participation, but only its extent. Thus, I propose to edit existing relevant sentence to: "For example, the Massacre in Jedwabne, in which approximately 380 Jews were tortured and beaten to death by the some Polish inhabitants of Jedwabne." We can also discuss whether to use "some", or "many" or, as some sources mention, 40 Polish perpetrators (and many more passive observers).

• I think the rest of Machcewicz's documents don't support the fact that the Germans "were helped by the Poles." There seems to be little support for the idea that the Germans led the massacre, and the rest of the reports seem to indicate that the Germans were passive, or not even present at the actual event. In any case, how about, "For example, the Massacre in Jedwabne, in which between 380 and 1,600 Jews were tortured and beaten to death by Polish inhabitants of Jedwabne." It has the range of numbers, and does not blame all the Poles ("the Polish inhabitants") nor does it explicitly limit the number, given that there were some many observers, and the number was unclear. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• ?? Read Machcewicz quote again... he clearly says In my opinion, and I base it on documents, there were 8 to 11 policemen, several Gestapo, or, in total, there could have been from a dozen to twenty or so Germans, armed with firearms. They were helped by Poles, who tormented the Jews and murdered them... Therefore you cannot say "...with ...no direct German assistance" - give the examples of these pogroms which occurred with no German involvement/assistance. My proposed sentence: "For example, the Massacre in Jedwabne, in which between 300 (IPN Final Findings) and 1,600 (Gross) Jews were tortured and beaten to death by the part of Jedwabne citizens, with disputable extent of German assistance." --Ttyre 17:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I never said no involvment, I said no direct assistance and this is true, there seems to be no evidence that the Germans themselves attacked the Jews. So perhaps: "For example, the Massacre in Jedwabne, in which between 300 (IPN Final Findings) and 1,600 (Gross) Jews were tortured and beaten to death by part of Jedwabne's citizens." We can leave the German issue for the main article, but the Germans did not do the torturing or the beating, right? --Goodoldpolonius2 18:29, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• How about ""For example, the Massacre in Jedwabne, in which between 300 (Institute of National Remembrance's Final Findings [10]) and 1,600 (Jan T. Gross [11]) Jews were tortured and beaten to death by part of Jedwabne's citizens." --Ttyre 01:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Agreed. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Motivation. Before WWII Polish and Jewish inhabitants of Jedwabne lived in peace and there was no history of anti-Semitic violence there. It had changed with the arrival of Red Army invaders in 1939 and the Soviet Union occupation of Eastern Poland until June 1941. Prof. Tomasz Strzebosz writes about the attitudes of parts of the Jewish population under Soviet occupation: ... the Jewish population, and especially Jewish youths and the city poor, participated en masse in giving welcome to the invading (Soviet Union) army and in introducing the new order, also by violent means. This is confirmed as well by thousands of Polish, Jewish and Soviet testimonies; there are official reports of the C-in-C of the Association for Armed Struggle (ZWZ, later the Home Army),General Stefan Grot-Rowecki, there is the (famous) report of the emissary Jan Karski, there are accounts written during and after the war. After all, even the (earlier) works of Jan T Gross (Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia, ISBN 0691096031) speak about these facts (Gross based his clear and undisputable conclusions on the materials preserved in the Hoover Institution in the States). The Soviet Army was welcomed with enthusiasm not only in the territories occupied formerly by the Wehrmacht, but also in the Eastern Borderlands, where the Germans never arrived. What's more, those "guards" and "militias", growing like mushrooms right after the Soviet aggression, consisted in the main part of Jews, And not only that. Jews undertook acts of rebellion against the Polish state by taking over towns, organizing there revolutionary committees, arresting and executing the representatives of the Polish state authority and attacking smaller or, sometimes, quite large (like in Grodno) units of the Polish Army and later: Later still, when the situation was taken firmly in hand by the Workers' and Peasants' Militia (RKM), the Jews - according to Soviet documents - were substantially over represented in that body as well. Polish Jews in civilian clothes, wearing red armbands and armed with rifles, in large numbers took part in the mass arrests and deportations. This was the most drastic sight, but equally galling for the Polish society was the massive presence of Jews in all the offices and institutions, especially since these had been dominated before the war by the Poles. [12] Is it sufficient for you to reinstate the sentence: "Many of these events took place in Polish eastern territories occupied during 1939-1941 by Soviet Union and were attributed to alleged Jewish collaborations with the Communist regime"?

• I disagree with you on this one very strongly. Saying, that the incidents "were attributed to alleged Jewish collaborations with the Communist regime," just doesn't stand up. I understand that there was anger at Jews for their real collaborations or alleged collaborations, but to claim that this is the accepted explanatory factor just doesn't make sense. In fact, it has been often labelled as a blatent rationalization, and used by some Poles as an excuse. I quote from Michlic's piece on Polish reaction to the massacre (PDF):

"Gross replied to Strzembosz’s two articles in early April, Jacek Kurczewski and two historians of the Jewish Historical Institute in Warsaw, Zofia Borzymińska and Rafal Żebrowski, joined Gross in a critical evaluation of Strzembosz’s arguments. They called the manipulation of the concept of “Judeo-communism” in connection with the Jedwabne massacre both historically false and unethical. They also pointed out that Strzembosz implied the existence of two truths about the Jedwabne massacre: a “Jewish truth” and a “Polish truth.” In an introduction to the first collection of articles dedicated to Jedwabne published by Więż, Israel Gutman, the eminent Israeli historian of Polish Jewry, also criticized Strzembosz’s position: “Although he does not say so clearly, these words suggest a certain tit-for-tat approach to Jedwabne—you hurt us, so now we’ll hurt you!”"

AND

"In this small debate, Strzembosz’s use of the concept of “Judeo-communism” as a way of rationalizing and justifying the crime became a narrative frequently recycled by various representatives of the strong self-defensive position. The most elaborate and aggressive version was circulated in the extreme nationalist press, in which the Soviet occupation of Polish territory was frequently called the “Soviet-Jewish occupation.” Moreover, discussion of the Jedwabne massacre lacked even the notion of tit-for-tat—“Jews hurting Poles and Poles hurting Jews.” Instead, from the beginning, the focus was on how Jews hurt Poles during the war, and still want to hurt them even today. A good example is the article by Jerzy Robert Nowak in the March 24, 2001 edition of Tygodnik Głos. The title itself indicated the author’s endorsement of the “reversed version of the history of the Jedwabne massacre”—“Jak żydowscy sąsiedzi tępili katolików” (How Jewish neighbors eradicated Catholics)."

At the same time, the motivations were not simply seething anti-Semitism either, its not like I am quoting Kosinski in my arguments. However, your sentence blames the Jews for the situation, implicitly, and does not have any real support. I suggest it stay deleted. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Hold your horses... All I am saying, based on mentioned by Prof. Strzembosz and others Polish, Jewish and Soviet testimonies, official reports of the C-in-C of the Association for Armed Struggle (Home Army), General Stefan Grot-Rowecki, Jan Karski report, Jan T Gross, Revolution from Abroad: The Soviet Conquest of Poland's Western Ukraine and Western Belorussia, ISBN 0691096031 that there was a general strong resentment by Polish population of formerly occupied by Soviet Union territories of perceived (real or imagined) Jewish cooperation with the Communist rulers. Are you disputing this? Do you see better place for this info - here or in relevant articles? --Ttyre 17:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• But this isn't what you have asserted before, you asserted that the massacres "were attributed to alleged Jewish collaborations with the Communist regime." I have not argued that there was no resentment, but I have demonstrated that it is far from the case that the massacres "were attributed to alleged Jewish collaborations" -- other authors attribute the cause to antisemitism, or to a desire to loot the belongings of the Jews. You could write "The reasons for these massacres are still debated, but they included antisemitism, resentment over perceived cooperation with the Soviet invaders, and greed for the possessions of the Jews of the towns." But your original sentence was just incorrect, it attributed the massacres to a single factor, and one that is dubious as a root cause, as the response to Strzembosz above indicates.--Goodoldpolonius2 18:29, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• How about this sentence: "The reasons for these massacres are still debated, but they included anti-Semitism, resentment over alleged cooperation with the Soviet invaders, and greed for the possessions of the Jews of the towns." --Ttyre 01:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Agreed. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Jewish Ghetto Police. Does it mean that you don't question the complicity of Warsaw Jewish Police in deportation of 300,000 Warsaw Jews any more? As I understand from your comments you question only the sentence's placement (ill-placed) in this article - right? I can understand that, similarly to feelings of many Poles about Jedwabne, some might feel uneasy and defensive about Jewish Ghetto Police. However, this has been a part of the History of the Jews in Poland during WWII and nobody's sentiments should play any role in excluding this sentence here.

• My discomfort came from the placement, and from my inability to verify the extent of the issue, and from the fact that, again, I feel this sentence is about placing blame on the Jews for their fate. I am not claiming that all Jews were saints, but the Ghetto Police were often frightened for their own lives and forced to participate (just like the Judenrat), and the SS and local police also played a role [13]. From one of the sources you cited in your entry on the Warsaw Ghetto (to which I will cross-post this): "The 2,000 - 2,500 Jewish policemen and their families were promised immunity by the Germans for their co-operation. As the "action" progressed they began to understand that they were not more than a tool of the Germans and their future like ordinary Jews was clouded in doubt. Therefore they began to desert in droves. The German's response: each policeman was personally ordered to bring in five heads per day for deportation. Those who did not fulfill this order were threatened with having their relatives transported to make up the difference. The SS directed the deportations from two centres in the ghetto. " Singling out the Jewish police seems strange without mentioning this, or the fact that the SS and, yes, the Polish police also played key roles, don't you think? --Goodoldpolonius2 03:09, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• You are trying to have it both ways: oppose to my sentence about Jedwabne Polish perpetrators' motives and argue the apologists' view of the Jewish Ghetto Police actions. Before continuing this part of the discussion I recommend your reading authoritative Emanuel Ringelblum, Notes from the Warsaw Ghetto, ISBN 0805204601. There you will find that participation in the Jewish Ghetto Police was voluntary, there were no mass desertions from it, Police is characterized as scum: extremely brutal and cruel, corrupt, and using their position for personal gains and in some cases sexual favors. Polish (Granatowa) Police did not directly participated in the expulsions of 1942; they were not present inside the Ghetto walls - deportations were carried out by 50 SS-men, 200 Ukrainian and 200 Latvian Police, 2,500 Jewish Police and the ex-members (Ringelbum mention 100) of "Thirteenrs" unit - so-called "Jewish Gestapo". The quotas of 5 "heads" per day delivered to Umshlagplatz was establishing at the beginning of the "action". Thus, I strongly feel that Jewish Ghetto Police sentence has a place in this article and probably should be expanded rather than censored. --Ttyre 17:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I am not trying to have it both ways, I am merely arguing the importance of this as one of the five sentences about the Warsaw Ghetto, and the fact that by mentioning just the Jewish police, it makes them seem like they singlehandedly were responsible for the destruction of the Ghetto. Its like blaming the Judenrat for the executions. I agree with you, though, that the Jewish police may well have been scum (especially those who stayed on the job after they found out what was happening), so their role should be discussed further in more nuance in the Warsaw Ghetto article, as you suggest. However, the sources you listed before made it clear that the Polish police did participate in policing the Ghetto even when they did not enter - they turned in any Jews who escaped the Ghetto and prevented food and supplies from entering (although some took bribes to turn a blind eye to smugggling) [14]. Collective punishment was applied if the Polish police were harmed, again, from your links (and many other sources): "In early November, 53 men in an apartment block were shot after one tenant hit a Polish policeman" (which also makes it seem like the police did enter the Ghetto). However, all your sentence mentions is the Jewish police, and it assigns them the only "big role." In my edits, I tried to avoid placing blame on Poles, but this is a case where Poles certainly played a role: They policed the outside of the ghetto and turned in Jews; the government-in-exile refused to assist the ghetto members until December of 1942, despite being contacted earlier; Poles from Warsaw were recruited as early as 1940 to attack people in the ghetto and several occasions (from your link); etc. These issues, along with the Jewish police, should be discussed in the main Warsaw ghetto article. If you want to mention the Jewish police, the sentence should start: "Along with the Nazi SS inside the Ghetto, and the Polish police patroling outside, the Jewish Police played a role in gathering up German-required "quotas" of Jews and delivering them to to Umschlagplatz train station." --Goodoldpolonius2 18:29, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• In my reading about the deportations (Ringelblum, Engelking) I could hardly find any mention of the Polish Police during that time period. On the contrary, in this well-research work [15], at the bottom of page 16 authors say: ...The Polish police did not take part in rounding up the Jews.... Mentioning both Jewish and Polish Police in the same sentence equates their actions and complicity in deportations. Thus my proposed sentence is: "The expulsion was carried out by 50 German SS-men, 200 Latvian and 200 Ukrainian Police, and 2,500 Jewish Ghetto Police". Also, I would give a range to the number of deported from the Warsaw Ghetto: 255,742-300,000. According to Engelking, German sources quote 253,742 deported while Jewish sources mention reduction of Ghetto population by 300,000 (this includes 10,300 killed on deceased inside the Ghetto, 11,500 deported to Dulags work camps, and 8,000 escapees to the "Arian" side. --Ttyre 01:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I don't think that the Polish police actually rounded up the Jews, but every source I have seen (including those you quoted previously) indicates that they played a role in patrolling the outside of the ghetto and not letting Jews escape or supplies enter, contributing directly to the small number of escapees and large numbers of deaths. Perhaps: "The ghetto was sealed off by Nazi forces and Polish police (who did not generally enter the Ghetto), the expulsions inside, however, which were carried out by the SS and the Jewish Ghetto Police, ghetto residents who were promised better treatment for themselves and their families in return for filling a daily quota of Jews delivered to the train station. Between 255,000 and 300,000 Jews were deported from the Ghetto before the Uprising." Does this work for you? --Goodoldpolonius2 03:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• No it doesn't. Germans "sealed" the Warsaw Ghetto on Nov. 16, 1940 - no Jews under penalty of death could leaving the ghetto without permission, no Poles without permission could enter in. Ghetto gates were guarded jointly by Jewish, Polish, and German police (1-2 of each). The Polish (criminal) Police operated during the whole German occupation of Warsaw but it did not participated in the deportations of 1942 - patrolling the "Arian" side of Warsaw was their normal daily duty. Implicating them in the deportations seems to be an attempt to minimize the facts about who carried the German-ordered expulsions. You might also confuse the role of the Polish Police during the deportations of 1942 and the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. During the latter, Polish Police participated in guarding the outside ghetto walls taking even some casualties. Also, contrary to what you said, food smuggling to the Ghetto was a booming business carried out, among other means, through the Ghetto gates by bribing the Jewish, Polish, and German police. The head of Judenrat, Czerniakow, estimated the size of the food smuggling into the Ghetto to be 40 times bigger than that through the "legal" channels. Escapes from the Ghetto were limited due to many factors: German imposed death sentence for both escapees and rescuers, need of a "good" (Aryan) look, ability to speak Polish (see Interwar period 1918-1939: ...85% of Polish Jews listed Yiddish or Hebrew as their native language), outside support system, financial means, etc. Despite these severe limitations Zegota, for instance, managed to smuggle out 2,500 ghetto children. The proposed sentence: ""The expulsion was carried out by 50 German SS-men, 200 Latvian and 200 Ukrainian Police, and 2,500 Jewish Ghetto Police". is almost a direct quote from Ringelblum, the number of the Jewish Ghetto Police during the 1942 expulsions comes from Engelking. Also, the history of the Jewish Ghetto Police should to be expanded in Warsaw Ghetto article. --Ttyre 11:42, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Sorry I didn't reply earlier, I missed the comment. I am not arguing that your figures were wrong, but arguing that the Poles participated in ensuring the ghetto was sealed ("The walls were guarded by the gendarmerie together with the Polish police; at the ghetto wall there were gendarmerie post, Polish police and Jewish police"). But I will drop any point about the Polish police in the article, as you are right in that they did not play a role in the deportations. With that aside, my primary concern is to ensure that we are acurate about the role of the Jewish police. I think that you are entirely right, and that we should address the issue in more detail in the article. For the purpose of this article, though, your sentence makes it sound like the Jewish Police were the overwhelming force behind the persecutions of the ghetto. This just wasn't the case. Some ghetto police certainly were sadists, and many more were hated for cooperating with the enemy, but they were often threatened or coerced to act: "The 2,000 - 2,500 Jewish policemen and their families were promised immunity by the Germans for their co-operation. As the "action" progressed they began to understand that they were not more than a tool of the Germans and their future like ordinary Jews was clouded in doubt. Therefore they began to desert in droves. The German's response: each policeman was personally ordered to bring in five heads per day for deportation. Those who did not fulfill this order were threatened with having their relatives transported to make up the difference. The SS directed the deportations from two centres in the ghetto." (deathcamps.org/occupation/warsaw%20ghetto%20liquidation.html). Perhaps we can say "The early part of the deportations were carried out by the SS and the Jewish Ghetto Police, ghetto residents who were promised better treatment for themselves and their families in return for filling a daily quota of Jews delivered to the train station. Between 255,000 and 300,000 Jews were deported from the Ghetto before the Uprising." --Goodoldpolonius2 00:31, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• According to Engelking, in July 1942 (before the “action”) there were 2,500 Jewish Ghetto policemen while in September 1942 (last day of “action”) 2,400. Here goes the argument that they ...began to desert in droves. Out of those 2,400 policemen several hundred were sent to Treblinka on the last day of deportations (Sept. 21, 1942). After deportations, the number of Jewish Ghetto policemen was reduced to 200-380. Also, contrary to what you say, during the early stage of the "action", roundups were done exclusively by the Jewish Ghetto police, later mostly by SS, Latvian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian police, and at the final stages by SS and all police force (including Jewish police). Immunity from deportations was promised to all Judenrat employees (including police), their families and relatives on Jul. 22, 1942 (first day of deportations). A quota of delivering 5 "heads" (łebków) by policemen was established in August (couldn't find the exact date). I don't think that Jewish Ghetto Police, as you said was an ...overwhelming force behind the persecutions of the ghetto. All strategic planning and decisions, selection of methods and its implementation about the Ghetto's life and the ultimate fate of its inhabitants, including 1942 deportations, were solely in the hands of Germans. However, the fact of Jundenrats' collaboration in Warsaw, Lodz, Vilnius ghettos, etc. and its complicity in roundups and deportations has been well established. The knowledge about the fate of those deported definitely existed among the employees of Judenrat from the beginning of the "action". Why do you think its chairman Cherniakow committed suicide on Jul. 23? My proposed sentence: The expulsion was carried out by 50 German SS-men, 200 Latvian and 200 Ukrainian Police, and 2,500 Jewish Ghetto Police. Employees of Judenrat, their families and relatives were given the immunity from deportations. Additionally, in August of 1942, Jewish Ghetto policemen, under the threat of deportation, were ordered to personally “deliver” five ghetto inhabitants into the Umschlagplatz.” --Ttyre 15:52, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Okay, given your research (I haven't looked into the Jewish Ghetto Police as much as you have, so can't argue with your facts), I think that your sentence works, with a few slight tweaks for grammer and to clarify that the deal applied to the Judenrat and the Ghetto police: "The deportations was carried out by 50 German SS-men, 200 Latvian, 200 Ukrainian Police, and 2,500 Jewish Ghetto Police. Employees of the Judenrat, including the Ghetto Police, along with their families and relatives, were given immunity from deportations in return for their cooperation. Additionally, in August of 1942, Jewish Ghetto policemen, under the threat of deportation themselves, were ordered to personally “deliver” five ghetto inhabitants to the Umschlagplatz train station." I think this has wrapped up - thanks for the reasonable debate. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:03, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Done, thank you for a civil discussion. --Ttyre 00:27, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The rest of your comments about ...minimizing any thought that the Poles might be involved in any aspect of the Holocaust... and taken in context with your other(?) edits I leave without a comment. Our personal impressions and feelings about mutual edits are not the subject of a discussion on this forum. --Ttyre 02:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I am not assuming badly of you, I just wanted to clarify why the total of the comments, rather than any individual one, created a context that I objected to. I hope that this discussion is fruitful. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:07, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Ditto. --Ttyre 17:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• We are making progress, I hope. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:27, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Hopefully. --Ttyre 01:01, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Two out of three sentences are done, and a third proposed... --Goodoldpolonius2 03:38, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1795-1918

It seems like the information on these years is neither in the Pale of Settlement or History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union. The History of the Jews in Russia and the Soviet Union article needs to be improved and expanded in general, but I think it would be worth including the history of the Jews in Poland during that time in this article. Jewish life during this period is pretty important, encompassing everything from the spread of Hasidism to haskalah to the pogroms in Warsaw, Bialystock, and elsewhere. What do people think - should the info be here, or in some sort of article on the history of the Pale or somewhere else? --Goodoldpolonius2 17:19, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the information should be here. There's no reason to leave such a large section of Polish-Jewish History blank. Information should also be added to the other articles, but the information in each should focus specifically on that article's topic (of course); a normal degree of overlap is to be expected. HKT 17:58, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As there is History of Poland (1795-1918) I see no reason why there should be a gap in the corresponding history of Polish Jews. Of course one should remember while writing/appending the relevant sections that majority of Poland was in that spacetime :> controlled by non-Polish governments - Poland was de facto occupied and annexed into Russian Empire, Prussua and Austro-Hungary. All of which, IIRC, were much less tolerant of Jews then PLC. This should make an interesting section, I think - I am looking forward to reading it.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:13, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Goodoldpolonius2, excellent entry on 1795-1918! HKT 04:23, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Questions and comments

First, let me say that you did a good job. I think this article is fairly comprehensive. I am now going through it, fixing ilinks and minor items. Afterwards, when the lead is expanded (feel free to do it yourself in the meantime) I will PR it and then FAC it - I think it has FA potential. We could use some more pics, so feel free to add them. Second, after a brief reading I have found several possible errors/inconsistencies - I will note them here in cases I am not 100% sure they are in fact wrong. Hopefully you will help me to determine if they are errors or not. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have responses below - thanks for the productive help! --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was on my list 'to do', besides, when I see something close to FA, I have this urge to make the final push :) And I was inspired by your work on it as well. And it took only 3h :> Wiki is a time-eating monster :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. "Under Boleslaw III Krzywousty (1102-1139), the Jews, encouraged by the tolerant régime of this ruler, settled throughout Polish and Lithuanian territory as far as Kiev. " But IIRC at that time neither Lithuania nor Kiev was under control of Poland, so how could his regime encourage their settlement there? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This was part of the general spread of the Jews east from Poland, at that time Kiev was relatively friendly as well. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You may want to copy this to text, beacues otherwise some readers may think Poland (Boleslaw) controlled those territories as well. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• What is the name of the 1264 Charter Boleslaw Pobozny issued "which clearly defined the position of his Jewish subjects"? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I am not sure, though it comes after the Mangdeburg Laws. The Jewish Encyclopedia of 1904 says this: "This charter, which subsequently formed the basis of Polish legislation concerning the Jews, does not differ greatly from that granted by Witold (1388) to the Jews of Lithuania." Partial text of that charter is here. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The name of the 1264 Charter was General Charter of Jewish Liberties issued at Kalisz, was also know as Act, or Statue, of Kalisz by Boleslaw Pobozny. "...Its provisions established Jewish courts and a separate tribunal for matters involving Christians and Jews. Also, the Jews were exempted from slavery and serfdom as well as from any obligation to participate in defense of Poland or to speak Polish. These provisions created for the Jews in Poland the status of a foreign commercial group, free of any of the national obligations of the exclusively Christian fedual estates of peasants, burghers, and nobles..." (source: Pogonowski, Jews in Poland). --Ttyre 15:42, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tnx. For future reference, I found also some text in Polish [16] --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. Similarly, any info on Lokietek code of Wladislaus I of Poland that "assured the Jews safety and freedom and placed them on equality with the Christians." would be appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:08, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It appears to have been part of the general legal code of Ladislaus I, which granted Jews a number of privellages. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. More charters: 1334 of Boleslaw - which Boleslaw, and what was the charter's name? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It appears to refer to the Pious Statute granted in 1264 by Boleslaw the Pious, and confirmed by Casimir below. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. Casimir III the Great charter has no name and date. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:12, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think this refers to the Wislicki Statute of Oct. 9, 1334 in which the Pious statutes were confirmed. The chronology was a bit confused in the original article. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. Under [[Wladislaus II of Poland "the first extensive persecutions of the Jews in Poland were commenced". This is a bit ambigous - did he sanction/support the persecutions, did nothing to oppose them, didn't care...? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:21, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The persecutions were led by the clergy, but the king did not help, see the Jewish Encyclopedia: "In 1423 King Ladislaus Jagellon issued an edict forbidding the Jews to lend money on notes. In his reign, as in the reign of his successor, Ladislaus III., the ancient privileges of the Jews were almost forgotten. The Jews vainly appealed to Jagellon for the confirmation of their old charters. The clergy successfully opposed the renewal of these privileges on the ground that they were contrary to the canonical regulations. In the achievement of this purpose the rumor was even spread that the charter claimed to have been granted to the Jews by Casimir the Great was a forgery, inasmuch as a Catholic ruler would never have granted full civil rights to "unbelievers."" --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. "By the constitution of 1504, sanctioned by Alexander the Jagiellonian..." - again, what was the name of this constitution? Isn't this by any chance a wrong dated nihil novi constitution of 1505? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:29, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think the date was wrong, as you suggest. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. The 'Jewish learning and culture during the early Polish-Lithuanian Commonweath' section is a kind of a summary/duplicate of what comes below. I think that it should be moved, possibly merged the stub section 'Spread of Hasidism' - what do you think? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:53, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

We could edit this section better, or even cut some of it, but I think it shouldn't be merged. The Hasidic rise is a very seperate set of events, and should be expanded on its own. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I moved part about Chmielnicki (it had little do do with learning and culture anyway). You are right that it should go before Hasidism - perhaps it should be dividied into the sections preceeding it? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. "Attacks on the latter by students, the so-called Schüler-Gelauf, became every-day occurrences in the large cities". The Schüler-Gelauf sounds German. Can you write more about it? Did it have a Polish name? Did it happen only in Royal Prussia and/or places with German majority? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:24, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From the Jewish Encyclopedi--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)a: Schulergelauf: "Organized attacks upon the Jews of different Polish cities by Christian youths, especially pupils of the many Jesuit schools that existed in Poland during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. These youths not only assaulted individual Jews whom they met on the streets, but they organized themselves into bands, invading and pillaging the Jewish quarters. Such disturbances were of frequent occurrence in cities which possessed large Jewish populations, as Brest-Litovsk, Cracow, Posen, and Wilna; and the riots often ended in bloodshed. Thus, in 1663 the students of the Jesuit academy in Cracow, under the pretext that some Jews had blasphemed the Christian religion, invaded the Jewish quarter, killed or wounded many persons, destroyed 120 houses, and carried off more than 4,000 florins, after having made their victims promise not to prosecute them. The authorities tolerated and even encouraged such affairs; and, in order to protect their lives and property, the Jews had to contribute annually to the various Jesuit institutions." --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Great, we can use it to expand this section. Although I still wonder were did the german name - Schüler-Gelauf - comes from? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. Same with Frankfort - never heard of one in Poland - are we sure it is not one of the GERMAN Frankfurts? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:27, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This was the German Frankfurt, the rabbi was from Posen. We can cut the sentence anyway. --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sure, will you? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. "One of the members of the commission, kanclerz Andrzej Zamoyski, along with others, suggested that the Jews be subject to even harsher restrictions." I'd like to read more about this (and a source) - from what I know, AZ was very progressive person, a reformer and supporter or 3rd May Constitution, drafter of a new legal code...of course, this does not prove he wouldn't support restricting of Jewish priviliges, but I doubt it is a one-sided story. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:35, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

David Vitel's A People Apart says that AZ wanted them restricted to the status of privellaged foreigners, but does not explain further. The Jewish Encyclopedia talks about a 1778 plan in which AZ "demanded that the inviolability of their persons and property should be guaranteed and that religious toleration should be to a certain extent granted them; but he insisted that Jews living in the cities should be separated from the Christians, that those of them having no definite occupation should be banished from the kingdom, and that even those engaged in agriculture should not be allowed to possess land." --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Tnx for the clarification. I would say that the current text that he 'suggested that the Jews be subject to even harsher restrictions' is confusing and should be replaced by what you wrote above, ok? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. Not my comment, but deserves a responce: are you sure about this? "In 1937 the unions of Polish doctors and lawyers restricted their membership to Christians " In 1939 Germans wanted to remove Jews from Warsaw palestra.. what is "union" of lawyers anyway? organisations?

Vitel quotes from Mahler's Jews in Public Service and the Liberal Professions in Poland 1919-1938 that this was done by the Union of Polish Physicians and the Union of Polish Lawyers in imitation of similar rules in Germany. Apparently, being part of the Union was needed for hospital appointments or teaching positions. The text of the resolution limited membership to "Polish citizens of Christian birth" (the text originally said "Poles of Polish descent," but was changed by the government). --Goodoldpolonius2 13:39, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 12:51, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. There are external links starting from 'The Holocaust: German-occupied Poland' section in the mainbody, they will have to be moved to notes or external links and linked via Wikipedia:Footnotes to confirm to our standards. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:10, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
2. "Over two thousand attacks on Jews occured throughout Eastern Europe from 1917-1921, leading to a strong outcry, especially in the United States and France. The result was a series of explicit clauses, especially articles 10 and 11, in the Paris Peace Conference protecting the rights of Jews in Poland." Few notes: many of those 2,000 attacks were not carried out by Poles but by other sides of those conflicts (bolsheviks, white russians, ukrainians, bielorussians, etc.) - I think this should be clarified (especially as Poland did not exist in 1917 yet). Also, it is a bit akwardly formatted - i.e. the events of 1917-1921 led to the clause in 1919 conference. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 14:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I fixed this and removed the 2,000 figure, since many attacks were in the Ukraine and elsewhere. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:11, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Some rulerls are confused. See 'Early persecutions: 1266-1279', "Prominent among such rulers was Boleslaw Pobozny, called the Pious (...) who granted the charter in 1264". The article links him to Henry IV of Silesia ("the Righteous" or "the Probus") but I think it should be Boleslaus the Pious instead? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:15, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1918-1939

In 1918-1939 section there is a sentence: "...This was accompanied by physical violence, in August of 1937 alone, there were 400 attacks on Jews in 79 towns and cities." Source please. --Ttyre 16:00, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

From the Jews of Poland Conference at Yad Vashem by Jan Dansa non-PDF form from Google see "Explosions of Violence". Although he does not give a figure, David Vital also mentions many attacks during this period. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:11, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This is a secondary source with no reference the primary... Until primary source can be provided, I question the validity of this statement, eg. how "attacks" were defined, who did the attacking (Poles, Ukrainians, Germans, etc.)? --Ttyre 17:07, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Why reject these figures? I actually think they are low, and certainly don't show the true extent of anti-Jewish violence in Poland in the 1930s. For example, from The New York Times, in Poland between May 1936 and January 1937, 118 Jews were killed, 1350 were wounded, 137 Jewish stores were bombed. In Bialystock alone in 1936 there were 248 assaults on Jews, including 21 mass riots or pogroms.' the article goes on to talk about anti-Jewish boycotts, newspapers pushing incitement, and attacks in universities, all from the grimly titled: "JEWS FACE CRISIS IN EASTERN EUROPE; Anti-Semitism, Sweeping Five Countries, Is Threatening 5,000,000 With Disaster, Wave at Peak in Poland By OTTO D. TOLISCHUS New York Times. Feb 7, 1937. p. 34" That should be primary source enough, don't you think? --Goodoldpolonius2 17:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It's enough to merit further investigation :) I think we have - more or less - documented all other periods, but we have suprisingly few sources for 1918-1939. There is also my personal interest, as I have never heard about the 1930s events. One NYT article shows that something has been going on, but what exactly - and what were the causes of whatever was happening - is still not clear, at least for me. From reading the current article one can assume that until 1937 all was relatively good for Jews in Poland, and them blam! pogroms and hundreds killed. Why?? Also, note that the article title mentions Poland as an example of Eastern Europe. Could you give us link to the article's full text online? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:03, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunatley the articles are PDFs from the ProQuest New York Times archives, so it is difficult (and probably illegal) to post them here. To make it clear, there was no bam! - the situation was grim during the whole period. There were anti-Jewish pogroms in 110 towns in Poland in 1919 (according the article below), a New York Times article from 1925 blames the anti-semitism on the Russian policy started around 1900 of driving the Jews from Russia, which created anger towards the Jews in Poland as a byproduct, combined with rising Polish nationalism that made it impossible for the government to step in and assist the Jews, lest it become unpopular. From about 1900 onward, the Poles attacked Jews regularly -- the articles talk about a "League of the Green Ribbon" which conducted boycotts and led attacks on university students. Just a sample from the 1920s and 1930s New York Times archive (I searched for "Poland" and "Jew" and "riot" to find these):

• A RECORD OF POGROMS IN POLAND; Massacres Began in Lemberg, According to Documents Received Here, and Spread Over Country--Women Violated, Men Slain, Synagogues Ruined, Property Taken Lemberg a Starting Point. A Young Woman's Story. Riot at Przemysl. Copy of Polish Order. Projects Unheeded. New York Times (1857. Jun 1, 1919. p. 43 (2 pages)
• 40 Jews Injured in Riot in Poland New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jul 6, 1930. p. 11 (1 page)
• ANTI-SEMITIC RIOTS TURN TO A BOYCOTT; Polish Nationalists Also Plan a Social Ban as the Universities Reopen Quietly.GRADE PUPILS IN CAMPAIGNGovernment Embarrassed by Fight on Jewish Students,Fearing to Take Sides. VIOLENCE APPEARS AT ENDPress Pleads for Peace After Month in Which 200 Were Injured and One Youth Was Killed. Government Is Embarrassed. Minister's Aid Futile. Press Hopes for Peace. By JERZY SZAPIRO. Special Cable to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 22, 1931. pg. 12, 1 pgs
• 30 HURT IN POLAND IN ANTI-SEMITIC RIOT; Police Reserves Are Rushed to Lwow as Mobs Attack Jews on the Streets. JEWELRY STORE LOOTED University Classes Suspended as Fighting Continues There After Killing of Student. Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Nov 29, 1932. p. 7 (1 page)
• FARMERS IN POLAND WRECK JEWISH SHOPS; Serious Riots in the Southwest Follow Nationalist Campaign Against German Fugitives. Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Mar 17, 1933. p. 10 (1 page
• ANTI-JEWISH RIOTS RENEWED IN POLAND; Traders' Stalls Demolished in Town Near German Border -- Several Jews Beaten. Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Dec 12, 1935. p. 14 (1 page)
• POLISH JEWS ASSAIL ANTI-SEMITISM WAVE; Federation Charges Authorities With 'Surrender to Anarchy' and Mob Violence.' Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Jun 29, 1936. p. 16 (1 page)
• POLISH NATIONALISTS WRECK JEWS' HOMES; Night Raiders Sack Shops and Burn Wares in Wiszonki -- Victims Hide or Flee. Wireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Aug 24, 1936. p. 3 (1 page)
• POLISH JEWS' RUIN TYPIFIED BY TOWN; BOYCOTT PRECEDED RIOTS Anti-Semitic Leaders Used Shooting in Quarrel as a Pretext for Disorders Typical of Small Towns Starosta Tells the Story 3,000 Fled to Warsaw Two-thirds of the Families in Minsk- Mazowiecki Have Asked Aid After Pogrom Many Jews on Relief By OTTO D. TOLISCHUSWireless to THE NEW YORK TIMES.. New York Times (1857-Current file). New York, N.Y.: Feb 12, 1937. p. 8 (1 page)

Let me knwo what other info I can provide. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:28, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Goodoldpolonius2, I am still interested in validity of the "...in Poland between May 1936 and January 1937, 118 Jews were killed..." sentence. Please support this data with the works of the historians rather than newspaper article(s). There is no doubt that there was ethnic violence in 1918-1939 Poland. Probably as much as in many other European countries at the time. There were similar events in the United States during the interwar period caused by ethnic/racial/religious and social conflicts. It looks to me that your edits for that period try to overemphasize the scale of anti-Semitism and ethnic violence in Poland. You have to ask yourself a question: how prevalent these events were and how they compare against similar events in other countries? Please run similar NYT archives searches for US and several other European countries. --Ttyre 19:58, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ttyre, I appreciate your concern, but, believe it or not, I had no idea how widespread anti-Semitism was in Poland before World War II until I started researching this article, I thought Poland was relatively tolerant, which is why I originally left in the rather rosey description of the interwar years. The more I learned, the more I have been revising my opinion and the article, however. I understand that you do not like the conclusion, but please provide sources, rather than assertions, if you are going to contest these arguments, especially as I have responded to every request for sources from you. First, I gave you a historical review, and you wanted primary sources. Then I gave you primary sources, including many articles from one of the world's newspaper of record listing hundreds of incidents, and you still object, claiming this is somehow expressing bias. In any case, I have done some additional research from other sources, this time using the scholarly journals on JSTOR, which confirm the kinds of information from the New York Times:

• "Before Hitler's regime launched the wartime genocide, political anti-Semitism in central Europe rose to levels of destructiveness unprecedented in modern history. Though most ruthless in Nazi Germany, anti-Jewish agitation and leg¬islation also struck hard at Polish Jewry. Indeed, in no other lands of modern Europe did the Jewish question in politics attain a more fateful significance than in Germany and Poland, although its role was weighty everywhere in cen¬tral and eastern Europe. Yet the historical literature offers no sustained compar¬ison of the character and trajectory of anti-Semitic political movements in the two neighboring lands." Before the "Final Solution": Toward a Comparative Analysis of Political Anti-Semitism in Interwar Germany and Poland, William W. Hagen, The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 68, No. 2 (Jun., 1996), 351-381.
• Antisemitism was an official state policy in Poland in the late 1930s, see, for example, "A Necessary Cruelty": The Emergence of Official Anti-Semitism in Poland, 1936-39, by Edward D. Wynot, Jr., The American Historical Review, 1971, or David Vital in A People Apart. All sources mention violent attacks, official discrimination, and harassment.
• Hagen gives an account of 350 Jews killed in antisemitic violence between 1935 and 1939, citing Bauer, p. 18, Marcus, pp. 241 ff.; Heller, chap. 4; Mendelsohn, The Jews of East Central Europe (n. 18 above), p. 74; Jerzy Tomaszewski, "The Role of Jews in Polish Commerce, 1918-1939," in Gutman et al., pp. 141-57; Simon Segal, The New Poland andthe Jews (New York, 1938), pp. 85 ff.; Raymond L. Buell, Poland: Key to Europe, 3ded. (New York, 1939), pp. 288-319; Jolanta Zyndul, "Cele ackji antyzydowskiej wPolsce w latach, 1935-1937," Biuletyn Zydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego w Polsce 161 (1992): 53-63.

Hopefully, this will help answer some of your questions. --Goodoldpolonius2 00:57, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Tnx, I actually have access to ProQuest base myself, but as I got it recently I didn't know it had normal newspapers archives in it as well - good to know. This selection definetly proves that as you write, there were Anti-Semitic excesses in the interwar Poland, and even offers glimpses for the reasons behind them - I trust you will add a few sentences on this to the article. However, just as Ttyre, I'd like to see some acedemic sources for the killings (newspaper accounts are hardly fullproof on this), and a comparision with situation in let's say contemporary France, Italy, Spain, UK and USA would be useful - I would like to know if the contemporary Poland was closer above or under the contemporary European anti-Semitism average. Perhaps this already exists on Wiki - I understand you worked on a number of 'History of Jews in...' articles, so you must have a better perespective then me. PS. I read once - not sure where - an accusation that interwar Poland prohibited printing of Talmud or some other important religious Jewish text - can you verify if anything like this did in fact happen? One more thing: "Jewish political parties, both the Socialist General Jewish Labor Union (The Bund), as well as groupings of the Zionist right and left wing and religious conservative movements, were represented in the Sejm (the Polish Parliament) and quite frequently also in the regional councils. At the start of World War II Warsaw had 20 Jewish council member while in Lodz there were 17" - it would help if we knew what was the % of seats the Jewish parties got, and what were the number of council members in those cities. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus, unfortunately my access to Polish-language resources is very limited. A number of Jewish council members seats in Lodz and Warsaw was taken from W. Bartoszewski's introduction to "Polish-Jewish Relations 1939-1945 in Documents". I would be interested to know the percentage of Jewish representation in Sejm. I will dig into historical data related to ethnic/racial/religious/social violance in the US during the interwar period. Is the first headline from NYT "Massacres Began in Lemberg" dated June 1, 1919 in Goodoldpolonius2 post refers to Petliura (Ukrainian) pogroms of Jews in Lwow? If so, it's another example of importance of verifying the data. Also, I re-read 1264 Statute of Kalisz (English translation) and will create an article with its excerpts. --Ttyre 21:25, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The pogroms in Lvov were carried out by Polish soldiers after they captured the city, and the article refers to other pogroms in Poland. From the 1919 New York Times article (this is using automatic OCR, so there may be some mistakes): " In a few days the Polish troops defeated the Ukrainians and became the masters of Lemberg. On Nov. 9the Jewish neutrality and the Jewish militia were again officially recognized in a document signed by Dr. Leonard Stahl, Dr. Ernest Adam, and Dr. Lazewski. On Nov. 10 an agreement was signed between the Jewish militia and the Polish Army concerning the area and the activities in which the former could engage. On Nov. 10, without any cause or explanation, the Jewish mllltla was disarmed by the Polish legionaries. On Nov. 22 the headquarters of the Jewish militia was attacked by Polish soldiers. All members of the Jewish group found at the headquarters were arrested and a hunt for the rest of them started. The pogrom began. Seventy thousand Jews were left at the mercy of a military force knowing Its full impunity. Bands of legionaries, who had first congregated In the city theatre to plan the raid effectively, strode through the Jewish streets, open¬ing shops, plundering goods, and carry¬ing away their loot in the face of the authorities. A .Jewish committee ap¬peared before the commandant of the city asking for aid, but their appeal was ignored. An outstanding fact proving that the pogrom was directed at none but the Jews is the one that no single Ukrainian was touched. It was later said that the Poles had been warned by the Ukrainian Government that, for every Ukrainian injured, one Polish landholder would be killed. The bands opened wine cellars, filled themselves with the liquor, and. Intoxicated with the beverages, started a cruel program of wholesale mass murder."

• It then goes on to list areas where verified attacks took place (again, forgive the OCR): "Andrychow, Baczkow, Barnnow, Blazowa. Bhizow, Bochnla, Bojanow. Brodle, Brzesko, Brzebin, Brzebnlca, Brzozow, Bukowska, Ohrzanow. Chy-row, Czernlchow, Czudec, Dombrowa, near Tarnow; Debna, Deborow, Deni-bica, Dobzcyce, Dublsko, Dynow, Dzlaloszyce, Gawlowka, Godow, Gllo-wee, Gorka, Grabowlcn, Grodzlsko, Grzebow, Huclsko, Imptnla, Iwonlez, Jamnica, Jaioslau. Jaworzno. Jedllca, Jelesznla, Jeslo, Jezow, Kalbusjiowa, Kalwarya, Klelce, Koclezn, Konmrow-ka, Koszarowa, Krcszowlce, Krryxano-wlce, Kurow, Lapy, Las, Lechowlce, Lemberg, Lcnkowice, Lcszlcc, Llma-now and vicnlty, Lubonll, (Poland;) Maldan, MUlee. Morawlca, Msssana-Dolna, Niepotonlcc, Nlcszotomlee, Nla-ko, Niszowlce, Oczkowice, Oswieclon, Pllzno, near Tarnow; Prewel, Pewla Wlekla, Przegallny, Przemysl, Prze-worsk, Radomysl, Hlelkl, Ranizow, RJecza, Rejnow. Roprzycc, Rozarrdow, Rymanow, Sandowa, Wierzchnia. Say-buscli District, Sendlszow, SlerRza, Slenlen, Spotnla Mala, Spotnla Wlelka, Starzow. Strzyzow, Szczakowa. Szle-mlenlec, Tarnobrzeg, Tarnow, Tlczyn, Trzebinla, Tuczempy. near JaroS'law; Ustrzyki Dolno, Warsaw, Wlrlpola. Wielkie Droiri. Wisnicz, (District of Bochnia;) Wodslslaw, (Poland;) Zak-llczyn. Viator, Zawoja, Zezna, Zml-grod, and Zolynia, (District of Lan-cut.) The features of the pogroms were nearly everywhere the same. Either the mobs of peasants and city populations threw themselves on the Jews with tho certainty of exemptions from punish¬ment or the outrages were committed by bands of soldiers of the Polish Army. Proclamations were spread everywhere inciting the masses to violence against the Jews. The press was openly preaching pogroms."

• As for comparisons to other areas, first see the scholarly articles above, which basically talk about Poland and Germany as the hotbeds of anti-semitic violence before the war, although it happened elsewhere in Eastern Europe as well -- especially Romania, the Ukraine, and Russia. I found no mention in the same period using the same search term (country + Jews + riots) of French anti-Jewish riots (outside of an Arab riot in Algeria), American anti-Jewish riots, Italian anti-Jewish riots or British anti-Jewish riots (outside of the Arab uprising in what was then Palestine). The death tolls were also quite high, 350 Jews killed in anti-Semitic attacks during 1935-1939 does not seem to happen anywhere but possibly Germany (100 Jews were killed in Kristalnacht). I think it is fair to say that the situation of the Jews in Poland before the war was among the worst in the world, especially compared to Western Europe and the US (Germany excluded). I would be happy to see evidence to the contrary.

--Goodoldpolonius2 01:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I will try to get info on past Elections in Poland. Unfortunately, my Google search failed to provide any comprehensive source, just tidbits of information, and as you can see the relevant wiki articles is mostly 'to do'. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 23:09, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vital also gives similar numbers of Jewish seats, he has a lot on the elections, so I will try to find out the total number of seats, but he doesn't have a great index so it may take some digging. He does note that Jews were underrepresented in the Sejm (they had 2.9% or 13 deputees in 1929) and municipal elections, due to low turnout, which Vital blames partially on fatalism and disenfrancisement, and partially to harassment at polling stations. --Goodoldpolonius2 01:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't have that much time to investigate issues raised by Goodoldpolonius2 in a nick of time. However, it would be prudent to research various (Polish, Jewish, other) sources before posting Gross/Kosinski-like revelations and making significant generalizations. My advice is to take another day or two, read more and produce (hopefully) more balanced input. Also, I don't feel like I have to prove that "...the situation of the Jews in Poland before the war was among the worst in the world" is not true. Any researcher would at this point ask: by what measures? which countries you compare? do you include Soviet Union for instance? etc. If this is your conviction and you, in a way, equate pre-WWII Poland with Nazi Germany so be it. But writing an encyclopedia article requires more than ones strong believes. As you probably know history is almost never black and white - usually grey. Painting History of the Jews in Poland, and for that matter any other wiki article, in two colors is a dis-service to the readers. --Ttyre 04:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ttyre, take the time you need, but we should concentrate on facts, we don't need to fixate on my generalizations about the conditions of Jews in Poland between the wars, which are one line of my reply, obviously a statement of opinion (although echoed by scholars) and not explicitly in the article. In any case, the material I posted should be far from a Gross-style revelation (ignoring the attempt to discredit my argument by calling it Kosinski-like), they are all articles published in some of the most important scholarly journals of history and major newspapers dating back seventy-five years-- you wanted sources, I gave you many, so the reasons for your doubts are unclear. You challenged me on facts, and now you ask about the validity of the measures. As for measures, I demonstrated that:

1. Historians agree that around 350 Jews were killed in attacks from 1935-1939, there were many attacks during that period, including some large number of riots or pogroms, and much loss of property.
2. Polish civilians and soldiers did attack Jews throughout Poland in 1919 and 1920 in pogroms that resulted in many civilian deaths
3. The Polish government did have official anti-semitic policies in the late 1930s, independent of similar actions by Germany
4. Jews were forced out of universities throughout the Second Republic, and were subject to other forms of harassment, including economic boycotts and discrimination.
5. Jews were banned from most government jobs during the entire Second Republic. The living standards of Polish Jews dropped substantially relative to other Poles during this period.
6. The opinions of historians, plus the weight of evidence, seems to suggest that condition of the Jews in Poland was substantially worse than in Western Europe or the US, and was certainly not equivalent to the experiences of Jews in France, the US, Britian, or Italy.

If any of these facts prove to be false, fine, demonstrate that, but I have responded with references and peer-reviewed articles to each request you made, now the burden of proof is obviously on you. I am not sure why I would need to take your advice and "read more" about the topic, given your lack of any evidence or argument to contrast with the many sources I have cited. Why is it so difficult to believe that the Poles treated the Jews badly during this period? Why are my sources and research not convincing? I am playing above board here, I did not come in with the preconcieved notion that this was the case (I actually thought Poland would have been tolerant between the Wars), but the evidence certainly seems to point to a generally dark period in Jewish-Polish relations. In any case, feel free to add more positive notes about the Jewish contribution to Polish life in this period, I would like to see more good stuff along with the bad, but we shouldn't remove the bad just because it paints a dark picture. --Goodoldpolonius2 05:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

1. If we are to count those as victims of anti-Semitism, then we should give the reader a more balanced view by quoting the number of Poles of other nationalities killed in the same period.
2. The quote about Lemberg you give seems to be false. It mentions the legionaries in the city in early November, while they did not arrive to the city until December (other Polish Army units arrived after November 19, but not the Polish Legions).
3. Which were? What exactly were the governmental anti-Semitic policies?
4. Any proof for that one? There were Jewish MPs, Jewish parties in the Sejm, even Jewish ministers. Which jobs were the Jews banned from?
5. And didn't the economical situation of Jewry in the US deteriorate in the 1920's and 1930's? To me it seems that some of the arguments used here could be used for all of states in question. Number of deaths and economy included.

--Halibutt 08:13, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

1. NYT articles are not primary sources. Moreover, since correspondent of them is not credible and is known for fabricating docuemnts, quoting them is just strange. Cohen is not reliable source.

• Cohen, who is he and where did I cite him? --Goodoldpolonius2 14:13, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC) In any case, I find your arguments

1. Why nobody had answered my questions which i left in comments? They were simply reverted? To repeat: what "unions of lawyers" restricted their membershoip to christians? What were conqueqneces? And how it happened that there still were plethora of Jeiwsh lawyers in 1939 as members of Warsaw palestra for example?
2. Pinsk wa sno pogrom, as probably all of you know. Polish officer saw ilelgal meeting of communists, arrested a lot of people, and ordered them to be hung under martial law (IIRC about 35, not 72). It happened that majority of those were Jews.
3. Lviv pogrom - i have seen to it as refernces to primary mythical pogrom. Not about thing happening, but for interpretation. Polish army arrested more than thousand of participants, so it was NOT organizing the pogrom and responsibility is only for not being able to introduce order fast enough, not for helping or complicity. (79 people were senteced, number of Jewish victims is about 72). Note that just two days before Jewish militia was fighting with Polish army inside the city. The events lasted ONE day, not three according to most of articles i have read.

Szopen 10:39, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Morganthau commission indetified only 8 pogroms (including Lviv) and estimated number of victims for 280. Marganthau in fact said that pogroms in Lviv was made by soldiers of Polish army (but not by the army itself), and that all pogroms had local character and were spontaneus and not organised. Samuel Stwewart esitmated number of victims at 348, Wright as between 200 to 300. I am not sure whether compensation for the damages were paid, since the commission reports differ on that: Morgenthau and Wright saidm that the compensation were begun to be paid, while Stewart denies that. Most pOluish sources I found while googling said that for three days there aas anarchy in the city, and in that three days criminals, deserters where killing and robbing almost freely while Polish army tried to reintroduce order, shooting some bandints on spot where necessary. Not only Jewish houses and shops were robbed and burned.

For role of Jewish militia, some sites seems to indicate that it simply returned fire, so I am quite puzzled over the issue.

US Ambassador Gibson was saying, that most of pogroms reports which were appearing in US press are inaccurate or simply did not happened.

www.wehealcancer.org/studjud/sj14kapi.pdf (hmm.. the site title is quite strange...)

Pinsk accident was also investiaget by Foster, who concluded, that this was not pogrom, but reasonable reaction by Polish military auithorities, who were told that Zionist are organisaing pro-Soviet, anti-Polish uprising, and because soviets were just few miles from Pinsk, he reacted promptly by arresting and shooting 35 people. Gibson also said that there was no pogrom in Vilnius and that it was fabricated in the west.

Note that Morgenthau commission issued two reports: one by Morgenthau himself, second by JKadwin and Joghnson and they were different... Szopen 11:30, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One final note: if you will read the whole article above, you will see WHY we think NYT articles from 1919-1920 are not reliable and may be safely considered the junk. Just read the Gibson and Morganthau private remarks and similar. Szopen 11:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Argh, I find strange thing while googling: almost all references to Morganthau, Jadwin and Wright report are in sites which are essentially anti-Jewish. I have to find references to those reports in some normal, academic books...Szopen 12:08, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Szopen, in the best traditions of wikipedia, I learned something new. I am now convinced that the incidents of pogroms against Jews at the end of World War I may have been exaggerated in the American press, mostly as a result of the analysis you pointed to in Studia Judaica (although could you confirm that this is indeed an article from that journal, since the site is weird? It is here but I don't speak Polish). We can definitely tone down claims to that effect in the article, though there did appear to be pogroms, even if not as large as was indicated - I, too, would love to see the Morgenthau commission report.

the article is from that page, see http://www.cyf-kr.edu.pl/~uwpilarc/ptsz/sj14_p.htm under Disscussion Article --SylwiaS 00:32, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

At the same time, the fact of official persecution throughout the 1930s, and escalating anti-Semitic violence, is undeniable (I hope). I quoted from Vitel's book A People Apart, Before the "Final Solution": Toward a Comparative Analysis of Political Anti-Semitism in Interwar Germany and Poland by William W. Hagen (The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 68, No. 2 (Jun., 1996), 351-381). "A Necessary Cruelty": The Emergence of Official Anti-Semitism in Poland, 1936-39, by Edward D. Wynot, Jr., The American Historical Review, 1971 and other sources, including, yes, the New York Times, but I am not sure why we would assume that all reports were exaggerated, just because some reports a decade earler were false. I would be interested in any information by you or Halibu that casts these facts in a new light.

I am not generally impressed by Halibutt's arguments that the situation of Jews was similar in the United States or elsewhere. To go through his points:

• If we are to count those as victims of anti-Semitism, then we should give the reader a more balanced view by quoting the number of Poles of other nationalities killed in the same period. Why? This doesn't make sense to me... this is an article about Jews in Poland, and anti-semitic incidents matter, right? If there was persecution of other groups, however, we can at least see the evidence before we debate.
• Which were? What exactly were the governmental anti-Semitic policies? there were tons of them, to quote from Hagen: "In Poland, the semidictatorial government of Pilsudski and his successors, pressured by an increasingly vocal opposition on the radical and fascist right, implemented many anti-Semitic policies tending in a similar direction, while still others were on the official and semiofficial agenda when war descended in 1939." going on to say: "The government's response, in 1937, was to organize the Camp of National Unity (OZN or OZON), This was meant to become a mass-based pro-Sanacja party that would eclipse the far right while countering the rising numerical strength and antiregime radicalism of the peasant and socialist movements. In 1938 OZON came to dominate the Polish parliament, where it began drafting anti-Jewish laws of the kind adopted in Germany between 1933 and 1935, in Romania in 1934 and 1940, and in Hungary in 1938 and 1939, Already since the early 1920s the Polish government had systematically excluded the Jews from employment in the public sector, from obtaining licenses to operate busi¬nesses in the broad sphere of the government-regulated or government-monopolized economy, and from receiving any considerable government bank credits. In the 1930s the realm of official and semiofficial discrimination ex¬panded to encompass limits on Jewish export firms, on Jewish artisan shops, on ritual slaughtering (which was a major source of tax income for Jewish communal self-government), on admission to medical practice and the bar, on membership in nationwide business associations, on access to university-preparatory secondary education and university-level student organizations, and, increasingly, on university admission itself. In 1921-22 some 25 percent of Polish university students were Jewish, but in 1938-39 their proportion had fallen to 8 percent." (NB to Szopen, the medical boards and the bar were the "unions" we were talking about earlier - the number of new Jewish members were severly limited or totally restricted in the 1930s, although they did not kick out existing doctors and lawyers, aparently)
• Any proof for that one? There were Jewish MPs, Jewish parties in the Sejm, even Jewish ministers. Which jobs were the Jews banned from? From Vital: "Actual government service itself had been closed to Jews to all intents and purposes from the very beginning, very firmly indeed at the cetnral administrative level, but at the less exalted level of the railway and postal service as well, in 1931...of the postal workers 21 out of 16,840 (.1%) were Jews...of the 28,895 railroad workers 44 (.1%) were Jews... or the 41,905 state administration and court officals 534 (1.3%) were Jews."
• And didn't the economical situation of Jewry in the US deteriorate in the 1920's and 1930's? To me it seems that some of the arguments used here could be used for all of states in question. Number of deaths and economy included. This just isn't true. There was not the same growing gap in income, and the number of anti-Semitic deaths in England, the US, Italy, and France during this period were neglible. Again, this equivalency makes no sense. Also, from Hagen: "The Polish-born Simon Segal, a judicious analyst, wrote in 1938 of official economic policy aimed against the Jews that, "if carried to its logical conclusion ... means starvation and slow death for hundreds of thousands." Already government hostility had effected "an unprecedented lowering of the standard of living among the Jews." Their positions in petty commerce, though still very numerous, were eroding rapidly, both through boycott and through Polish middle-class formation as well as through the spread of rural purchasing and marketing cooperatives. They were being driven out of the export trade and turned away from the universities and learned professions. In 1939, in a third edition of his widely read report on Poland, the American scholar Raymond L. Buell wrote that "there seems little doubt that overwhelming opinion in Poland favours the elimination of the Jew from economic life and the 'Polonization of commerce." Of Polish student organizations Cang wrote that "the vast majority" were "violently anti-Jewish."

In short, thanks for the evidence about Lemberg and such - I am happy to learn that those accounts were exaggerated, and that only 8 pogroms took place (still 8 too many, but...) - but the same arguments don't seem to apply to the rest of the evidence about anti-Semitic attacks and the death and destruction caused by them, or about official government persecution. I stand by those facts, but would be very happy to see evidence to the contrary. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:13, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

As you quoted above "...In 1921-22 some 25 percent of Polish university students were Jewish, but in 1938-39 their proportion had fallen to 8 percent." Please note that although Jewish population in 1921-1922 constituted probably less than 10%, Jewish students represented 25% of those admitted into universities. This over-representation was later reduced by introduction of Numerous Clausus (I am not quote sure whether it applied only to medicine and law). American equivalent of Numerous Clausus is Affirmative Action (still present in 2005) [17] - state universities' preferential admission system promoting minorities (women, blacks, Latinos, American Indians, Pacific Islanders).

Come on -- the number of Jews in the universities fell by half in 10 years, from 8,426 to 4,113, even as the university population grew from 34,266 to 49,987, hardly some sort of natural phenomenon - did the Jews suddenly get dumber? "This over-representation was reduced by the Numerous Clausus" - which is to say a quota on the number of Jews allowed in universities and professions, which is hardly some sort of benign policy, it was part of an effort to promote Polonization at the expense of Jews. Indeed, to claim that a plan designed specifically to reduce the number of Jews in academia and the professions is the same thing is affirmitive action is a real stretch on credulity! And even outside of this this does not take into account the ample evidence, above, of unofficial and official harassment of Jews at universities, etc. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The goal of the Affirmative Action in the US is to create a blend of student admissions reflecting ethnic/racial makeup of the population at large. Meaning, increasing percent of minorities by decreasing (at the expense of) white/Asian admissions. What's the difference with the Numerous Clausus in interwar Poland? --Ttyre 17:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Again, I think you are ignoring the fact that the official and unofficial discrimination in Polish Universities looked nothing like affirmative action, it was about harassment and attacks on Jews as part of an explicit effort towards Polonization. There were antisemitic attacks at the begining of each school year in the 1930s. Of those that I could find exact figures in either the New York Times or the AP (and these are not speculation, these are the university announcements accompanied by quotes from Polish officials): the University of Lvov was closed by antisemtic riots led by Nationalist students in November 1931 and November 1932 at least, Warsaw, Cracow and Vilna closed due to riots in November 1931, Vilna closed again due to anti-Jewish riots in October of 1936 and January 1937, and the Academies of Commerce and Agriculture in Warsaw were closed in April of the same year by Nationalist student riots against Jews. During the riots of 1936, Mussolini actually invited Jewish students to study in Italy, since they could not complete their studies in Poland. There were attacks on professors (Edward Lipinski and Tadeusz Kotarbinski are names I have heard mentioned), Polish students refused to sit next to Jews, enforced economic boycotts, and distributed anti-semitic literature. Please read the articles I posted below, and see if you still think the situation was equivalent to affirmative action. It certainly was nowhere close to what the Nazis did, but the university attacks were clearly pretty ugly antisemitism. --Goodoldpolonius2 05:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You are jumping the gun here again... I am not saying that there were no Polish-Jewish fights and disturbances at the universities - they were. But we are discussing the universities' admission policies here. According to Marek Jan Chodakiewicz (Zydzi i Polacy 1918-1955) the US Ivy League universities (Harvard, Columbia, Princeton, Dartmouth, and Yale) had numerous clausus as well. For instance in 1926 Harvard University reduced the number of Jewish admissions from 25% to 12%. Columbia University in New York suspended its informal numerous clausus policies during the 1950s. --Ttyre 11:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there were antisemitic "Jewish quotas" in some private universities in the US, especially the big three, but overall Jewish attendence at US universities continued to increase during this period, and there were not quotas at public schools, which would have been illegal, as opposed to private schools, which can do what they want. There is an order of magnitude difference from Poland, which had overall Jewish attendence fall by half - they couldn't get an education anywhere. The US also never had any quota policy supported by the government and there were not yearly riots against Jewish students that closed universities. I am not sure what else I can do to demonstrate the difference in scale of the discrimination against Polish Jews in universities - it is universally mentioned in any history of the Jews I have read in that period, and I would, again, be curious about any actual evidence you have to counter it. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Also, still a reminder for those who easily overlook this important fact of the interwar realities in Poland: ...85% of Polish Jews listed Yiddish or Hebrew as their native language. Bringing these percentages into contemporary US, it gives an equivalent of over 25 million of US citizens not (or barely) speaking English. The command of English language is mandatory to be granted US citizenship as well as to receive any federal or state government jobs. --Ttyre 15:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

There are a huge number of things wrong with this argument. First, this doesn't mean the Jews (or at least the vast majority) didn't speak Polish - its like saying that Swiss people who list French as their first language don't speak German. Second, Polish Jews were already citizens, the language test analogy is just false, the US does not force citizens to take language tests. Third, this is a pretty lame excuse given that Jews made up 0.1% or less of many government positions -- language hardly seems to be the reason. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Are you forgetting that a large percentage of the Polish Jews were so-called Litwaks - Russian speaking Jews who had relocated at the end of XIX and beginning of XX centuries to territories of future independent Poland? As a result of Peace of Riga 700,000 Jews from Russia were granted Polish citizenship. What language do you think they spoke - Polish?

One of the requirements for the US citizenship is to pass US history and constitution oral examination in English. Language argument is an extremely important to understand interwar realities in Poland because it reflects the (low) degree of Jewish assimilation. This cannot be compared with the level of Jewish assimilation in the most of the Western European countries at the time where most Jews spoke the local language (German, English, Dutch, French, etc.). --Ttyre 17:34, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I feel like you are skipping my arguments here. First, the Polish Jews were already citizens, the US does not require a language test of citizens, only of applicants to citizenship, your analogy is false. Second, you have provided no evidence to back up your assertion that many, if not all, of these Jews they could not speak Polish, even as a second language. Third, it seems strange that even if every single Jew who listed Hebrew or Yiddish as a first language could not speak even a word of Polish (which hardly seems credible), we would still have something like 2%-3% of the population of Poland, and only .1% of major government jobs held by this group, an under-representation of 20x.

--Goodoldpolonius2 05:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I obviously misspoke - I meant citizenship candidates not US citizens. Thus, using the contemporary US requirements for citizenship candidates, Jews who were admitted into Poland according to Peace of Riga would had been required to take an oral examination (in Polish) of the Polish history. You obviously cannot comprehend that for most part Poles and Jews lived in a separate and parallel communities with a relatively small number of assimilated Jews who spoke Polish. Yet, among the officers killed in Katyn, 500-600 were Jewish which reflects roughly the percentage of the Jews in the population at large. -Ttyre 11:17, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I still await any evidence to counter the statements from scholarly articles that most government jobs were closed to Jews, the simple fact that .1% of many government jobs were held by Jews, or to support your assertion that 85% of Jews did not speak Polish. The Peace of Riga gave Poland additional territory, you are saying that the Jews who lived there should have been required to take language tests or become stateless or expelled? There is no comparison to a voluntary immigration process at all. A little evidence would help your repeated assertions. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:03, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'll read above in 1h. For now, a thing I was meaning to do all day: ask for sources for economic statistic here: "At the same time, persistent economic boycotts and harassment combined with the effects of the Great Depression and property-destroying riots reduced the standard of living of Polish Jews until it was substantially below that of the average Pole, and among the worst among major Jewish communities in the world. The result was that at the eve of the Second World War, the Jewish community in Poland was large and vibrant internally, yet (with the exception of a few professionals) also substantially poorer and less integrated than the Jews in most of the Western Europe." From what I read about this period, some Jews were truly very poor, but some were among the richest people in Poland. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:54, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus, hopefully your question is answered in the info above. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• What I wanted to say is that not every Jew who was killed in the interbellum was a victim of anti-Semitism, just like not every Pole or Romanian killed was victim of anti-Polonism or anti-Romanism, accordingly. At times it's simply too hard to tell. Especially that Poland of the 1930s was not a heaven on earth by any means. We had the great crisis (which struck mostly the poor, including Poles and Jews alike), we had Ukrainian terrorism (political murders and armed assaults on police stations and whole villaged) and so on. That's why we should handle such bodycount with extreme care. Some Jews might've been victims of simple banditism, without any ideology involved.

• • Hagen, a historian writing in a peer reviewed journal, specifically gives an account of 350 Jews killed in antisemtic violence between 1935 and 1939. Not convinced? He cites Bauer, p. 18, Marcus, pp. 241 ff.; Heller, chap. 4; Mendelsohn, The Jews of East Central Europe p. 74; Jerzy Tomaszewski, "The Role of Jews in Polish Commerce, 1918-1939," in Gutman et al., pp. 141-57; Simon Segal, The New Poland andthe Jews (New York, 1938), pp. 85 ff.; Raymond L. Buell, Poland: Key to Europe, 3ded. (New York, 1939), pp. 288-319; Jolanta Zyndul, "Cele ackji antyzydowskiej wPolsce w latach, 1935-1937," Biuletyn Zydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego w Polsce 161 (1992): 53-63. There are plenty of other citations as well. And the New York Times articles from this period show a lot abuses, which have not been challenged in accuracy. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• But you still fail to provide any concrete arguments behind your thesis. What were the anti-Semitic laws (which, BTW, would have to be passed also by the Jewish MPs)? Details please. Also, the case of ritual slaughter had been an important issue since late 1920's. For instance Felicjan Sławoj-Składkowski, a minister of interior in Piłsudski's government (1926-1929, if memory serves me well) created a decree that regulated all the hygienic aspects of trade. Notably, the decree required that all farms have a john built (until then a large part of Polish peasants simply used the back of their barns as toilets), that water used for making tea and coffee in bars be boiled, that the meat sold in marketplaces be kept in cold and not longer than three days and so on. When the decree was created, noone even thought of the ritual slaughter. However, when it was presented to the chamber, the Jewish MPs protested and gained large support abroad (most notably in American press). And the decree was ammended to their likintg (which was apparently not recorded in foreign press). BTW, because of that act, all johns are usually called "sławojka" in Polish, in honour of Sławoj-Składkowski.

• • It was not so much specific laws as government policies and unofficial actions. Failure to allow Jews into public service, taxation policies that happened to fall heaviest on the Jews, not blocking rules restricting Jews into professions, etc - see all of the sources above. These issues were echoed in the highest levels of government, for example, the head of the OZN laid out a legislative agenda in 1938 that according to Gazeta Polska, Dec. 4, 22, 1938 inculded: "the Polonization of our industry, commerce, and skilled crafts, as well as the elimination of Jewish influences from Polish cultural life," He then asked "whether the Government intends to take up immediate, energetic, and multilateral activity having as a goal the broadest possible reduction of Jews in Poland through the use of all available means." Incidentally, the Gazeta Polska called this an "important initiative" that would create "an absolute turnabout in the handling of the Jewish question after which, instead of being a burning center of, and an occasion for, partisan struggles among Poles, it should become the object of consistent, constructive action." --Goodoldpolonius2 17:03, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Again, I can't find a proof that the economical situation of Jews in Poland was tied to some anti-Semitism. Obviously, there were right-wingers in Poland as well and even fascists (but not Nazis, luckily), but still, I doubt their impact was as tremendous as the journalist you mention picture. To present a balanced view, the topic should be well-explained and we should take more things into consideration. From the top of my head: contrary to British or French Jewry, the Jews of eastern Russian Empire and then Poland were en masse poor, just like the peasants were. That's why they were struck by the great crisis. I doubt any of the Rotschilds starved at that time, though I bet there were lots of cases of starvation in the US at that time. Which, of course, doesn't mean that the US law was anti-Semitic. Also, you can't blame Polish merchants for winning the competition with their Jewish colleagues. And so on. All in all, examples of anti-Semitic laws introduced in Poland would really help in this discussion.

Halibutt 16:05, Jun 21, 2005 (UTC)

• • I am surprised that hard facts I provided are being rejected, like the low numbers of Jews in public jobs, the fall in the number of Jews in universities, and the anti-semitic violence and riots. I am increasingly unsure what will actually be accepted by you as evidence - I was not quoting "journalists" but scholars - for example, Vital's book has been hailed as "a fiercely dispassionate, perhaps definitive analysis" by the London Sunday Times and basically every other reviewer, and he is held in high regard by historians. Basically, there are three of you arguing that anti-semitism was not a large or official in Poland between the wars, and despite my replies, you are obviously not going to be convinced and you keep raising the bar on proof. If I am wasting my time trying to provide it, let me know. I learned a lot through my research, but have I convinced any of the three any of the three of you to accept any new facts in the volumes of information I am providing? Otherwise, I should just leave the material as is, and I can spend my time on other articles. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:01, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Let's try to keep our tempers cool here. I have also learned a lot while working on this article, and I hope to learn yet more. And I find contributions of Good (you won't mind me calling this for short from now on, I hope?), Ttyre, Szopen and others very valuable. Now, Good, to answer your question: I feel you did a great job on fidning lots of references, and provided much more of them then anybody else, and that summary of info from them should be present in our current article. I agree that your current fidnings support the version that anti-semitism in Poland was on the rise in 1930s, but I am still not convinced it was close to Germany - for that I'd like to see some academic comparison (for example, number of incidents per year per country placing Poland high). Without disqualifying any of your statements I'd like to - if possible - get even more primary sources. For anti-semitic laws it should be possible to find their official names ('Act 58 of Date, Sejm session Y, passed with 80% restricted the Jewish numbers in public services' Z or whaterver the legal nomenclature is). For 'they were poor' argument, I (perhaps my background as an economics student makes me persistant here) I'd like to see statistics - i.e. 'survey carried by X in Date showed that Polish citizens of Jewish origin had real income 70% of those of none-Jewish origin'. Perhaps they are not available in English - therefore I ask others involvled (Ttyre, Halbutt, Szopen) to try to find them - or sources proving otherwise. For voting, I'd like to note that if Jewish parties had small represantation in parliament, it is simply possible that most Jews voted for some of the mainstream parties - we could use a survey on 'who the Jews voted for' and 'what was their particiaption comapred to non-Jews'. Finally, there is a point Halibutt made - Poland was poor, ravaged by Great Depression much more then US or We, and affected by terrorism (Ukrainian, German), so if the Jews were poor and harassed, so were Polish citizens, and not every incident when a Jew was harmed had an anti-semitic motive. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:49, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I never said that anti-semitism in Poland was as bad as that of Germany, it certainly wasn't. At the same time, I feel that if the debate has become polarized in this discussion, it is because I was surprised at the amount of resistance I received when proposing that Poland was increasingly anti-Semitic during the Second Republic. This is correct, and I have answered every question or point with sources, none of which have been refuted by anything substantive, aside from some assertions that anti-semitism was just as bad in France or the US (just plain false), or that individual policies were justified by the fact that the Jews didn't speak Polish, or some other reason. I would really like to see some evidence backing up these points, or at least responding to the facts I keep stating. To make it easier, keep reading, I have included links to a couple of articles that I thought were useful, so you can read and respond to them if you want.

Then there is the persistant characterizations of my evidence as somehow being anti-Polish or "focusing on the negative." My other edits to most of Polish-Jewish history reflect no anti-Polish sentiment, and it bothers me that I am being accused of it--it was only upon being challenged so strongly that we got bogged down on this time period. I do not want to ignore the positive - I have never subtracted a single positive statement about Jewish-Polish relations, and have asked for more to be added. Still, if you look at the old article on 1918-1939, it left an entirely incorrect impression of the interwar period which needed to be addressed.

In any case, I am at the end of my resources for carrying out some sort of intensive program of study as I don't speak Polish (ironic, that, given the whole primary language debate a few paragraphs back), but I would ask one of the Poles to help me do some digging - to confirm the evidence I am providing in Polish newspapers of the time, etc. In order to give you guys some of the fact base I am working from, I am attaching two scholarly articles. The first is the Hagen piece from The Journal of Modern History published by the University of Chicago, download it here: Modernanti.pdf, the second is the Wynot piece from the American Historical Review, you can find it here File:Neccruel.pdf. Both have many Polish citations for you to follow up on, if you are interested in confirming or refuting arguments. Piotrus, I believe you have admin privellages, so please delete them after you and the others download them -- I don't want to leave it up without permission.

I am generally happy with the changes Piotrus has made to the article, while I can't promise that I won't make some edits, I think you are doing a good job maintaining NPOV in tone and content, which I know takes work. And, again, I echo your call to add more about the postive aspects of Jewish-Polish culture during the Second Republic, but I would appreciate knowing from people other than Piotrus if my standards of evidence are acceptable and convincing, or whether I am going to be continually challenged regardless of the quality of any information I present. Goodoldpolonius2 18:11, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I can't speak for the others here, but I really do appreciate both your comments, your cool and balanced tone and the articles you provide. The problem I have with your comments is not with the facts you provide, but with their interpretation. Namely, some of the assumptions made by the authors you quote seem unsubstantiated, while others seem highly overstated. That's the case with, for example, description of economic situation of Jews as if it was something different from the economic situation of all Poles at the time, and the poorer classes in particular. One should not forget that the Eastern-European Jewry (and the majority of them lived in Poland at that time) were not Rothschilds but Tevyes. Anyway, to make long thing short, I agree with what Piotrus wrote: if we assume that the economic situation of Jewry was different from the rest of Polish peasants or poorer burghers, then we should provide exact data rather than interpretation alone.

By the way, perhaps my own view on these matters might be a tad crooked since my Jewish great-grandfather was a headmaster of a college at that time and his economic situation was better than many of his gentile countrymen. Halibutt 10:18, Jun 22, 2005 (UTC)

I have just read Norman Davies 'God's playground' chapter on interwar Poland, quite englightening (at least to me, as my reading on this era was somewhat behind). It has certainly disillusioned me to this period - I, like many Poles (I think) thought of the interwar Poland as some kind of almost Golden Age. Davies makes a strong case it was not, and even writes sth like "Even without the IIWW, this country was like to suffer some kind of terrible crisis and collapse". I will quote fragments relevant to our discussion soon (hopefully 2-3 hours). Basically, Davies writes is that yes, the situation of Jews worsened, but the community was still one of the largest and most prominent in the world, and that what some labeled as anti-semetism actions were not as much anti-semitic as pro-Polish - i.e. there were part of a wider actions against *all* minorities (Ukrainians, Jews, Bielorusians and others). Not that it portrays the contemporary Poles in much better light, on the other hand, the view of the interward Poland that emerges from that reading is rather negative. As for poverty, Davies stresses that entire Poland was very poor, and whatever hardships hit Jews they also affected Poles. Interestingly, while he has several pages on Jews, and mentions for example the university quotas, he does not mention a single killing or pogrom of late 1930s (at least not specifically anti-Jewish one). If you have this book on your shelf, it may be good to read the entire chapter to get a better picture of the entire era. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:31, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Haven't read it, but I am happy to pick it up. I do reccomend Vital's book as well, it talks about Jews everywhere in Europe, not just Poland, as is an interesting read. Also, what did you think of the two articles I posted? --Goodoldpolonius2 04:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Gentlemen, I think the main problem here comes from a wish to characterize those times simply, which certainly wasn’t the case. I know that any number of attacks on Jews or any other people is too big and I wish it have never happened. However, it still would concern about 0,035% of Jewish society in Poland and I would like the article to describe the remaining 99,965% as well. To compare, there was similar number of attacks in the USA in the 1990s, but I would never say that it’s difficult for Jews to live in America. (See http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/ADL_audit.html). I don’t want to show that it’s worse in the USA than here today, but I think that in the USA the situation of Jews is as various as it was in pre-war Poland.

I am happy that we are discussing a lot of the facts here - but I have to say that this is just wrong. There were no antisemitic killings in America that I know of, or anti-Jewish riots, or student groups organized against Jews. One thing I worry about is that the general atmosphere that comes through in everything I read that was written by Jews in this period is not being reflected - every reading I have done indicates a great deal of worry, and many incidents, attacks, and harasment, including bombings and riots, that made life in Poland very worrying for Jews in general, not just the ones that were killed. That doesn't mean that there weren't positives, but, like anywhere in Eastern Europe, the situation was growing quite grim. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I found some numbers on Polish Jewish site: in 1921 there were 2.831.168 Jews in Poland – 10,5% of all Polish citizens, but only 8% of all considered themselves as Jews referring to religion. On every 100 people it the working age 6,8 were Jews. Among them 62% worked in trade and insurances, 23% industry and craft, 10% transport, 12% free professions and public services, 1% agriculture. The situation of Jews differed depending on the place of their living, and so in former Kongresówka and Galicia they held strong position in trade, industry and craft, but in Pomerania, Great Poland and Silesia their position was weak. Welfare of Jews, though very differential, was generally higher than that of Poles.

In 1922 there was established Blok Mniejszości Narodowych (a coalition of national minorities grouping small Jewish parties but also German and Ukrainian). The Bund and Poale Syjon didn’t join it. Jewish parties from East Małopolska had a separate election list. In former Kongresówka a separate list was held by Żydowski Demokratyczny Blok Ludowy (Jewish Democratic People Party). Results of elections in 1922: Blok Mniejszości Narodowych 16% (66 mandates), remaining groups 4,6% (18 mandates). Together, Jews had 34 mandates to Diet and 22 mandates to Senate.

In 1923 - 2.989.000 - 10,5% of Polish citizens admitted to Jewish religion. In 1924 Jewish youth made 26% of students and 23% of secondary school pupils. In elections in 1928 Blok Mniejszości Narodowych gained 55 mandates to Diet and 21 to Senate. In 1930 Blok Mniejszości Narodowych wasn’t organized. Particular parties held their own election lists. Among people voting for Jewish parties 65% voted for various Zionist groups and only 10% for Bund.

In 1930 Talmudic School in Lublin was established. It had 7 floors and 120 classrooms. There were 40.000 books in its library.

In 1931 Jews were 9,8% of Polish citizens. 4% of Jews were working in agriculture mainly in East Poland. Some were landowners. About 33% worked in trade. From 33% working in craft almost half were independent. Few worked in heavy industry and mines, mostly in cloth and food industry. 2,6% of Jews worked in national administration. Many had free professions. About 10% were unemployed.

In 1936 in central authorities of Communist Party of Poland among 15 persons were 8 Jews and 7 Poles. Among 15 secretaries of local committee were 8 Jews and 7 Poles. In HQ there were 53% of Jews. In 1932 Jews were 37% in Radom but over 54% in Kielce. In youth structures in 1930 80% were Jews.

October 20th, 1937 Numerous Clausus was proclaimed. Indeed, number of Jewish students in public universities was diminished from 25% to 8%. We should also remember that still 20% of Jews attended Jewish schools. The cause for it was to give equal chances to all Polish citizens. Jews didn’t become less intelligent, but in those times we didn’t have the “joyful socialism”, which made all schools (including universities) free. So it was proclaimed to give equal chances to poorer people. Generally only 3 grades in primary school obligatory. Many Poles never made further than that. Still, I don’t think it was a good solution. There should have been more schools.

In 1939 about 10% of Polish citizens were Jews. In trade 52% were Jews, in industry and craft 42%, medicine doctors 33,5%, lawyers 53%. Jews had 28% share in all incomes into Polish budget. Among 103 theatres in Poland 15 were Jewish. Jews published 160 newspapers and magazines of common impression 790 000 daily.

If we want to see the article more balanced, it’s not because we are anti-Semites or Polish nationalists, but it’s because the history isn’t very distant. We all have a connection to it. We have or had our grand or great-grand parents, who remember those times. Also, even though the official number of Jews in Poland is so low, it’s because it concerns only people of 100% Jewish origin, who practice Jewish religion. Yet, it’s really not so easy to find a Pole, who wouldn’t have Jewish roots. For that reason, it’s difficult for us to think about US and THEY. It’s our common history and there is much more to it than aggression.

I never accused anyone of being an antisemite, I don't think any of you are. I also have substantial family who lived in Poland and remember those times well, including some who lived there until 1968 and some who lived there until more recently, and I am trying to reflect their experiences as well as the material I found in my research. Again, my feeling was the article did not adequately express the feeling of those times -- Polish leaders of the period actively called for Jews to leave in the 1930s and newspapers editorialized the same, while Jews were often harassed on the streets (as you can see in the articles above). That being said, I don't think that this needs to be a negative history, and I am happy to add in good and bad, but, again, I was drawn to this debate because none of the negatives were being mentioned, but I feel that this situation is largely rectified, and the debate about it has been good. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

First of all, we have to remember that the above numbers of mandates given to Jews do not refer to Jews being in government as members of Polish parties. Second, there were many Jews and many various ideas for their life in Poland. There were as well communists as socialists. Jews, who wanted to go to Palestine and Jews, who wanted to stay in Poland and change its political system. Orthodox Jews, who were against assimilation and Poles of Jewish origin, who didn’t want to be isolated and decided to live like other Poles. Now, if we consider our presidents, they were always with some Jews and against other Jews. Simply because particular groups of Jews had different goals. So Piłsudski was with the Orthodox Jews, but against communists. Mościcki wasn’t liked by Jews who wanted to stay in Poland, but was supported by Zionists. No Polish government encouraged aggression against Jews, but Mościcki encouraged Poles to compete with Jews economically. We can call it unfair, though in fact many Poles didn’t have an equal start with Jews, esp. that the biggest Jewish fortunes were created in 19th century, when Poland was still under Partitions. Of course there were many poor Jews as well. But even Mościcki was not an anti-Semite if we consider race and when WWII started he made a big effort to help Jews.

I don't know about this, the calls seemed to go far beyond some sort of casual suggestions that the Jews should be competed with. For example, to quote again from the article above, the head of the OZN laid out a legislative agenda in 1938 that according to Gazeta Polska, Dec. 4, 22, 1938 inculded: "the Polonization of our industry, commerce, and skilled crafts, as well as the elimination of Jewish influences from Polish cultural life," He then asked "whether the Government intends to take up immediate, energetic, and multilateral activity having as a goal the broadest possible reduction of Jews in Poland through the use of all available means." Incidentally, the Gazeta Polska called this an "important initiative" that would create "an absolute turnabout in the handling of the Jewish question after which, instead of being a burning center of, and an occasion for, partisan struggles among Poles, it should become the object of consistent, constructive action." A number of leaders directly said their goal was to make Jews emigrate. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It’s difficult to compare the situation in Poland to other countries, simply because number of Jews was different. The biggest group of Jews lived in the USA, but looking at the whole number of Americans, Jews weren’t a big group. Yet, there was KKK, Henry Ford, official regulations limiting number of immigrants (also Jews) since 1924 http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAE1917A.htm or Red Scare. In other European countries like Russia or Rumania, situation of Jews was hopeless. It’s difficult to compare France or England to Poland, as in Warsaw only, there lived more Jews then in the whole countries. Still Jewish situation there didn’t look well at all http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWjoyceW.htm .

I don’t want to say that all Poles were saints. There is always a group, which ruins opinion of all. And I am positive that pro-Polish actions should be mentioned here. Still, we know that many Poles were friends with Jews. Many rich Jews married Polish gentlewomen. There were many influential Jews making efforts to help Poland economically. Jews and Poles together were creating Polish culture. Many Jews were fighting for Polish case in other countries. They would be proud of their history here. I will try to list all the names I found important soon. I’m not saying it was a Golden Age at all, but those times were much more complicated and I think we should try to show the whole situation in the article.

Here are some links to Jewish sites (in Polish only) http://www.izrael.badacz.org/historia/mandat.html , http://www.historiazydow.edu.pl/panel08.html --SylwiaS 20:56, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I agree about reflecting the complexities, and, again, my conern came from the fact that the original tone of the argument seemed to be to reflexively assert that this was a Golden Age, and, where ugly incidents occured, to excuse them with occasionally disturbing justifications. If you read back over the debates on this page, I think the tone has evolved to more substantive discussion, which I am happy about. By all means, add in the positive aspects, and lets create a view that shows the complexity of the period. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:16, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• BTW One of the Jewish sites says that inside crisis in Narodowa Demokracja resulted in emerging a radical organization Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny (ONR). It seems that they were anti-Semites making brainwash to Polish youths. They were responsible for organizing economical boycotts. It was established in May 1934 and was dissolved after two months, but many were still active illegally. It split into two groups: Falanga - active mostly in universities and A.B.C., which legal organization was Narodowy Związek Polskiej Młodzieży Radykalnej. Can any of you find anything more about them? How many members they had? If those were some kind of idiots like Samoobrona today, it would be well to make it clear in the article. --SylwiaS 21:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Goodoldpolonius, note that i haven't said there was only 8 pogroms in 1918-20 in Poland: i said that Morganthau et al identified 8 majors "accidents" (they avoided word "pogrom" on purpose) so it may not include every single accident of violence against Jews. Also, I found that Samuel Stuart (Stewart? I found at least two spellings of his name and I don't even know if he was Samuel Stuart or Stuart Samuel :D ) was generally more inclined to believe in acts of violence - Polish site i quoted, basing on his report, painted life of Jews in generally dark colours.

As for numerous clauses, i know about unofficial regulations made by universities, and i know that PROPOSAL for numerous clausus (sp?) law was not passed through parliament, The number of violence? Recently I read excertps from writings of Giertych (the older), and men, while reading it I thought he was something like Polish Hitler... Also, we had to remember that in some regions (Bialystok etc) ND was very popular and organised even popular riots (DOes someone have access to GW archive? There was onece article by Anna Bikont (IIRC) about situation of pre-War Jewry in that region.

Another thing is e.g. Poznan Jews. A book about Greater-Polish Jews claims that native Jews generally though about themselves as GERMANS, not Poles, and only token of them identified with Polishness (but in 1930 native Jews were minority in Jewish Greater-Polish minority.

Also, in late 1930 up to 1938 it was unfriendly climate for Jews (casus of Korczak (?) whose auditions in radio were suspended came to mind). However, from what i've read after 1938 it was constantly getting better.

As soon as i will get paid for one of mine side-jobs, I will search in allegro.pl for some books over the period. Szopen 07:03, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is getting longer and more interesting with every hour. Before I have time to respond in depth, I want to post some general remarks: Sylwia, two thumbs up! If we are to compare two conflicting views and interpretations, it's always better to stick to sheer numbers and start from there.

Szopen, I do have a GW password. Could you post some more details on the article I should search for?

Finally, perhaps someone could make an archive of this talk? It's 140kB long... Halibutt 10:21, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Can't remember the title it was about situation in Bialystok region before the war and udner Soviet occupation, the author was Anna Bikont I THINK - it was published during debate about Jedwabne. Szopen 07:13, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Everything above 'Questions and Comments' section can be safely archive. For the rest, they are still alive, I think. Now, for the promised Davies quotes (p. = page number in Polish '94 edition, chapter 19 'Independence', my translation, sometimes abbreviated, so may differ from orginal English text somewhat. Footnotes for his chosen (ones I thought most relevant) primary sources given when known, but there are quite a few more - if you want more sources for a given para ask me, and I will see if I missed something.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Goodoldpolonius, yes, that’s true that our government at that time wanted to diminish number of Jews in Poland. It’s also true that all the minorities were against Polish government except Nowa Organizacja Syjonistyczna (New Zion Organization), which wanted Jews to leave Poland and create their own new country. At the end of 1930s our government wanted to make a Polish colony in Madagascar, which would be a separate territory for Jews (something like Israel today). There were many splits in Polish main parties, some of them going to be extremely radical, but it doesn’t mean that the mother party was as radical too. What I think we should do is to check how big was the problem. There are couple parties in Poland even now, which are against everything and do things, with which most of Poles would never agree, but this is the price of democracy. Yet, this problem in Poland isn’t as big as in some other countries, so we have to find the exact balance. I’m really glad for the article, because we never analysed the situation of Jews in that times separately, we were always taught about general history of Poland. You certainly made us more sensitive for the problem and I can see that we all want to find out more. Still, it doesn’t mean that we will choose to believe NYT’s articles, as we indeed, think them extremely biased. I can also give you an interesting example. When I first read about the American Immigration Act from 1924 on a Polish Jewish site, it said that the act was proclaimed especially against Jews as a result of Henry Ford’s efforts. They blame on the act deaths of millions Jews during Holocaust. They say that only 75000 Jews were permitted to the USA in period 1933-1939. As you can see I didn’t translate it then only found more about the act and mentioned that it included Jews. I don’t know, if what was said on the page is true and I’m not going to check it, because as you said, we are writing about Jews in Poland here. But I give you the example now, so you could see that POV changes along with the place of observation. In my 0,035% calculation I took the number of 1200 people injured not 300 killed, because even the Jewish site says only about 13 people killed as a result of anti-Semites actions. Still, I agree with you, that even if the number of harassed Jews was relatively small, it must have affected much bigger number of people. I don’t agree that such cases were only in Poland. I know that it’s difficult to find number of attacked Jews in the USA or other countries, but it’s also difficult to find numbers referring to Blacks, though many sources say that there were riots and people were killed. Also the article about England I gave before says about riots and victims in London, but doesn’t give numbers. Since there was a New York Pogrom even quite recently, I cannot believe that in 1920s and 1930s people were just reading impolitic books. KKK had 4,5 million members, while Polish Falanga had 5 thousand and Stronnictwo Narodowe – the biggest politic party in 1938 had over 200 thousands members, which is about 1% of Poles in that times (not Polish citizens). I agree that there were anti-Semites actions, but I don’t agree with the New York POV on Poland. Also in Rumania in the end of 1930s all Jews were deprived of their citizenship. In Germany NSDAP had 14 million members. In Russia Jews lost their right to vote and a great number of Jews were killed. So it certainly cannot be said that in Poland the problem was the same as in other countries in our region. From all what I have read till now it seems that there were big problems in building new Polish country, which was already very weak after 123 years of Partitions and in the pre-war time Poland was additionally weakened by minorities with other interests then those of Polish government. Please, don’t think about those times as about minorities in the USA today, think rather about the Civil War and opposite ideas of different groups. After all there is the USA Constitution and all the minorities have to accept it, while in pre-war Poland the minorities wanted to change Polish system to their liking. I’m leaving for weekend now, but I will write about Jewish-Polish contributions next week. It’s not so easy, as many names as Słonimski, does not sound Jewish at all and I need to check people’s biographies to find out their origins. --SylwiaS 15:15, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Davies

p.507 "According to the language criteria from 1931, Poles formed only 68.89% of total population; Ukrainians 13,9%, Jews (usning jydish) 8,7% (graph on next page gives 8,5% = 2,7mln), Bielorussians 3,1%, Germans 2,3%, forming 1/3 of total population". It is unclear how well those minorities spoke Polish, however, later remark (p.524 "Polish-speakers formed only 2/3 of country's inhabitants...") seems to indicate they spoke it poory or none at all. This could certainly use a clarification, though. Horak Poland and her national minorities, 1919-1939 New York 1961, Pilsudski and ethnic conflicts in pre-1939 Poland, "Canadian Slavic Studies", III, 1969 p.69-91 --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

same page. "Jews, living mostly in the small city ghettos, formed an unproportionaly high percent of both impevorished ploretariat and richer classes". p.537 on Warsaw: "Jewish quarter, as most of the workers quartes, looked like slums. Jewish Folkspartei party was one of two that dominated local elections." --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

same and next page. "Rights and autonomy of ethnical minorities were guarneteed in articles 95,101 and 110 of the March constitution, however the aspirations of those minorities conflicted with the goal of national unity, as viewed by majority of the Polish politicians. Poles were forced to compete with unrelenting nationalisms rivaling their own. Howver, after elections of 1922 the Blok Mniejszości Narodowych (Block of National Minorities) had 81 deputies in Sejm out of 444 total (16%). After 1930, their power diminished in time as Polish goverment lost willingness to cooperate with the minorities." From p.511 "in 1922, Jewish Sejm club had 35 deputies, more then socialists, for example". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

p.510 "Ukrainians begun a terrorist campaign, the murders of high government officials in 1931 (Tadeusz Hołowka) and 1934 (Bronisław Pieracki) provoked Polish goverment into carrying oit intensive acts of repression against minorities". Napier, The Ukrainians in Poland: an historial background, International Affairs, XI 1932, s.391-421, Rewiuk, Polish Attrocities inthe Ukraine, London, 1931--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

p.524-525 - the education. "In the impoverished country, the supply of education lagged behind the demand. Peasant's children could afford education only in extreme cases. Minorities were mostly left to their own fate and their initatives were unsupported by goverment funding, as government cleary stated that any funds it had would be used for Polish schools only. Near the end of 1930s, the nuumerus clausus came into effect, with its goal of limiting the nuber of Jewish pupils in chosen schools and univierities to reflect the proportions of Jews in Poland." --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

p.516-519 Discusses the impact of the Great Depression on mostly agricultural Polish society (great impoverishment - unemployement close to 50%, compared with 10% in Western Europe is definetly responsible for greater intolerance in Poland). "Jewish moneylender (lichwiarz) and trader (kramarz) invoked - without a fault of their own - common hatred". Davies then goes on describing conflicts in the country and strikes in the towns, most of which resulted in fights with the police and often many deaths (1922-1923 and 1933-1937). On p. 533 he writes "In the 1930s the situation of minorities worsened a lot. Repressions on Ukrainians coincided with decrease in security for city Jews. The increasing antagonisms were not kept in check by increasing number of police actions, nor by the advertising campaings for the official anti-Zionism. Radicalisation of views increased.". It's quite possible the latter ones are the same that NYT reported as 'pogroms', according to Davies, they were fights between government and workers/peasants. I'd say it's quite possible that many Jews died simply fighting side by side with their fellow workers against the police, not as a minority target by Poles - although this is my pesonal POV based on our discussions so far and not backed by detailed numbers and case studies. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

p.511 "3-million strong Jewish minority in Poland suffered from other problems - economic recessions, demographic explosion, racial discrimination and propaganda. On the other hand..."

p.511-512 - on the positive aspects of Poland-Jewish relationships, with many interesitng facts that definetly should be mentioned to balance this period. Sylwia, perhaps you would be so kind and to expand on this? Some high points: they had their own fluorishing education, newspapers, theater, cinematography, scientists (Yidiszer Wisenszaftlicher Instytut in Wilno - one of the top Jewish cultural centres in the world), writers, politicians with much freedoms on local and central (Sejm) levels (rabbi Mosze Elihu Halpern, Zionist leader Icchak Grunbaum, Sejm deputy Roza Pomerants-Meltzer - first women in Polish Sejm, Lazar Rundsztejn, a boxer, were figures of national fame and respect), large autonomy (kahal goverment, many institutions from hospitals through sport clubs to insurance agencies). The middle and above classes lived the life of mostly peace and prosperity. Davies conclusion: "not everything was ideal, but the situation was not completly hopeless". Davies sources (Good, I would think you should be able to get a hold of most of them): Stopnicka-Heller, On the edge of Destruction, New York 1977 (Davies warns it is 'matryrological POVed') and recommends Image before my eyes: a photographic history of Jewish life in Poland 1864-1939, Dobroszycki, Kirschenblatt-Gimblett, JIWO New York 1977-78, H.M.Rabinowicz,The Legacy of Polish Jewry: a History of Polish Jews in the Inter-war Yers, 1919-1939, New York, 1965 --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I need a bit more time to read and digest, but this looks interesting and informative, thanks! --Goodoldpolonius2 04:19, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

On an interesting note, the famous language criterion in the 1931 census was even more complicated than it seems since the question was not of the primary language you speak or the language you speak most frequently or at home, but the language you feel the most bound up with or tied emotionally to. Confusing, isn't it... Halibutt 13:40, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

In 1931 Polish government wanted Jewish communities to pay taxes. There were so many protests that Polish government resigned from the resolution. However it may be the reason for Polish government not paying for Jewish schools. --SylwiaS 15:26, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Illustrations

I tried to add some illustrations throughout, but a couple of things would be useful. First, if anyone has any pictures from the Anti-Zionist campaigns, or other post-war or communist-area pictures involving Jews, that would help liven up the end of the article (I have some of the Kielce pogrom, but would prefer something beyond pictures of coffins to better illustrate the period, if possible). Second, if there is anything very recent we could use that might be show the Jewish community in so much as it currently exists - shots of rebuilt synagogues, the Krakow festival, etc. Finally, a map might be useful as well, if anyone has a good one, showing the Pale or Jewish movement into Poland. Maybe something like this, without the copyright issues. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:41, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

For the map, ask User:Halibutt, our resident expert on maps of Poland. I did a search using Polish keywords. Found March 1968 and posters (unfortunately, low-res, but readable enough). You may also want to browse the archives of Polish Rememberance Institute [18]. For newer events, see [19], [20], [21] and [22]. See what you like and what we can use on Wiki. Have you checked the external links in mainbody? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:33, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Goodoldpolonius, I thought you might find these links interesting. This one http://jewish.sites.warszawa.um.gov.pl/wstep_a.htm describes Jewish Warsaw (from the beginning till today). There is also a picture of nowadays Warsaw Synagogue. The present President of Warsaw also offered rebuilding one of the other synagogues, but the Jewish Community of Warsaw refused, so maybe the one, which exists now will be the only. Link to the Jewish Community of Warsaw http://warszawa.jewish.org.pl/engindex.html and Warsaw Jewish Theatre http://www.teatr-zydowski.art.pl/ . Jewish Community of Poland http://www.jewish.org.pl/index-en.html and one of Jewish web portals http://www.diapozytyw.pl/en/site . I hope you’ll find them useful. --SylwiaS 00:44, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

One more link to a museum, which will be established in Warsaw http://www.jewishmuseum.org.pl/index.php?page=1011000001 --SylwiaS 02:48, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Please help me add more about the positive aspects of the last 100 years of Polish-Jewish relations, by the way. --Goodoldpolonius2 05:44, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'd like to add some of those photos, but I am not sure about the copyright. As they are post 1994, the Template:PD-Poland does not apply. What can we do? Fair use, perhaps? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 6 July 2005 21:00 (UTC)

I sent requests for image use to PAP and Auschwitz musem. I am unable to find any contact or even a page above [23]. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:39, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Where are WE?

I have one question. This article shows mostly two separate groups of people living in one country. And what about US? Jews and Poles living and working together. Shouldn't some cultural aspects at least be covered like the Scamander group? After all even if today the number of Jews living in Poland is very little, still millions of Polish kids and teenagers grow up reading books wrote by Polish Jews. I know that this article is already long, but it covers mostly dates, numbers and places, I think it's lacking the real people and I seriously wonder if there is any other country, where Jewish writers are so popular. What do you think? -SylwiaS 01:15, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

SylviaS, as you see from the tone of the article and its discussion, the current emphasis is on the darker side of the Polish-Jewish history. Even the Golden Age of the Jewish history in Poland is examined from the point of view of real and potential wrong-doings of Polish Christians. It's difficult to find in the article the reflection of Poland as a promised land for Jews for centuries before the establishment of the US and Israel. For a reason, Wilno was once called Jerusalem of the North. I wholeheartedly agree with you that this article would benefit from mentioning the contributions of people like Bruno Schulz or Julian Tuwim who identified themselves with both cultures. --Ttyre 03:07, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ttyre, I would be very happy to include more about the good aspects of Polish-Jewish relations, but that doesn't have to come at the expense of ignoring the truth as well. The Golden Age is mentioned quite extensively, I think, though the tone might be a bit dry. However, we should not shy away from the fact that, from the Partition, or at the very least the 1880s, onward, Poland (and Eastern Europe in general) was not generally a good place to be a Jew compared with Western Europe, the US, Latin America, or most other locations -- the tone becomes dark because the story is a dark one. That does not mean that we should ignore the positive contributions Poles and Jews had on each other over their history. I attempted to add in information about the importance of Hasidism and Jewish scholarship in Poland, but unfortunately I know a lot less about the contributions of Jews to contemporary Polish culture over the last hundred years or so (most of the List of Polish Jews are Jews who left Poland, mostly for America or Israel, so it hasn't helped me understand the contribution). Perhaps you could add that material, rather than concentrating on trying to minimize the truth of the darker stuff, which definitely exists. I don't mean that in a bad way, I understand you want to concentrate on the positive, but as the discussion above indicates, it may be that even Poles do not know the extent of anti-Jewish persecution during the Second Republic, or in the post World War II period, material which should be discussed, not ignored in an attempt to make the tone of the article better. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:20, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sylwia - as always, you make an excellent case. Yes, this discussion - and article - has seemed to turn (again) to discussion of anti-semitism. No surpise here - it is always more popular to discuss the 'bad' then the 'good' - but I support you wholeheartly in your attempt to make it more balanced. Please, do try to list all relevant names, organisations, cases here and we will try to incorporate them into article - or just add them to the article immedietly. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:51, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• I found some brief description of important Polish Jews of pre-war Poland. Unfortunately in Polish only, but it’s a chapter from a book, which was first published in the USA – “The Jews and Poles in World War II” by Stefan Korbonski, Hippocrene Books, New York 1989, ISBN 0-87052-591-3. Here’s a link in Polish http://www.antyk.org.pl/teksty/ozydach-03.htm . Please, everyone interested, see if you can write anything more about the people mentioned there, I’ll try to focus on literature. --SylwiaS 22:13, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

References for 1989-present

I deleted these references because they were a pair of highly biased articles in the same series by the same author. The first was entirely devoted to demonstrating that a pogrom ever occured in Ejszyszki, a claim that is not made anywhere in this article, and does not seem relevant. The second article attempts to pin a huge number of evils on the Jewish partisans, equating them with Soviet forces in every case. This would not be so problematic if it wasn't for the tone of the article, which constantly tries to excuse incidents against Jews -- the only mention of Kielce is that it was smaller than a massacre of Poles by a "Jewish-Soviet assault", and including footnotes that try to evade blame on Poles, claiming Jews were worse, for example:

• "Kielce is often called (by those who ignore the role of the Jews in the Stalinist regime) as the last European pogrom. Not only did the recent massacres in Bosnia prove this to be false, but also largely European Jews perpetrated a number of march larger masscres in Israel/Palestine after Kielce..." the article than goes on for a page long footnote listing (often incorrect) facts about Deir Yassin, which hardly seem relevant.
• Elsewhere in the articles, the bias is even clearer, the author asks: "In any event, even assuming the worst (but unproven) case scenario, namely, that Polish partisans deliberately shot Yaffa Eliach’s mother and baby brother, how does this tragedy differ from that of scores of others such as Naliboki and Koniuchy, where—as we shall see—hundreds of innocent Polish children, women and men were gunned down in cold blood or burned alive by Soviet and Jewish partisans? Why are some victims better than others? Why do some get unlimited publicity in the Western media as martyrs, while others are relegated to oblivion or ill fame? Some observations on this perplexing issue will be put forward in Part Four of this study." Leaving aside the role of Jews in Naliboki and Koniuchy, the agenda of setting up equivalence hardly seems to be the best for a reference article, and smacks of some of the same “Judeo-communism” tit-for-tat reversal of the debate decried by Jacek Kurczewski, Zofia Borzymińska and Rafal Żebrowski in their article on the response to Jedwabne.

Given that the references come after references to the Jedwabne massacre and the Auschwitz Cross, these articles mention nothing having to do with that topic at all. If these articles have any value, they might be to discuss an anti-Polish bias in some histories, but, in their unbalanced attempts to minimize or excuse persecutions, they certainly have no place in this article. --Goodoldpolonius2 04:47, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Your repeated deletions of Mark Paul's "A Tangled Web. Polish-Jewish Relations in Wartime Northeastern Poland and the Aftermath" ([24], [25]) indicates to me that you value more NYT article(s) than a well sourced monograph. Obviously you might not like it because it shows the other side's dark history. I thought that you don't like to ...minimize the truth of the darker side... is it only one-sided? The essay is relevant to the topic, re-examining Polish-Jewish past e.g. including Jedwabne, Koniuchy, Naliboki, Auschwitz crosses, etc. had been only possible after the fall of communism in Poland in 1989. The history of the Jewish partisans whether you like it or not, is a part of this process. --Ttyre 14:21, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Ttyre, no need to fight dirty, let's just admit these articles are horribly biased as the only two samples of the re-evaluation of Polish-Jewish relations in the last few years. I have agreed that the reports from the 1918-1919 period were not accurate after I was presented with evidence - I certainly did not include them to make a point and am happy to see them deleted when they were false. I would appreciate you taking a similar reasonable tact to this "evidence." First, these essays are barely relevant - the first, again covers only the denial of a pogrom I never heard of and the second's tone is strained to the point of insanity in trying to excuse things like Kielce. For goodness sake, read the quotes above (or the giant two page footnote on Deir Yassin) before claiming that these are unbiased or mainstream sources - couldn't you at least quote from the INM reports on Naliboki and Jedwabne, rather than some apologist? Or a chapter from Polonsky and Michlic's Neighbors: The Discussion (Princeton, N.J.: Princeton University Press) that actually covers the debate in Poland and Israel over Gross's book? I have no interest in supressing information about Jewish partisans, but I abhore any attempt to excuse, as this author does, incidents like Kielce (or Jedwabne or the other pogroms found by INM which are unmentioned in any case) by saying that they were not as bad as other massacres committed by Soviet partisan groups with Jewish members. Surely you can find a better source than this! Goodoldpolonius2 14:29, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Template

I think we can add this to Template:History_of_Poland. What do you think? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 08:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. Also it would be good to add the link to the Warsaw Jewish Theatre, as it is the only Yiddish language theatre in Europe nowadays. --SylwiaS 15:29, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Article division

I would rather reverse IZAK's division of this article, or at least divide it into two articles, rather than four or five (through independence and the Second Republic, after independence and the Second Republic). Any thoughts? --Goodoldpolonius2 28 June 2005 18:15 (UTC)

This was close to FAC, now we have a collection of small subarticles. Keep them but bring back all of the related material. I would do this but considering the current amount of bug in 1.5 beta I think I will take a vacation until they fix them. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 28 June 2005 20:00 (UTC)

I think the article was fine undivided. I haven't looked at all the subdivision articles yet, but it seems to me, moreover, that splitting the article by century is somewhat arbitrary and historically inappropriate. P.S. I've enjoyed watching this article develop, and hope it reaches WP:FAC soon! HKT 28 June 2005 22:30 (UTC)

There is also the question of what to do with the created subarticles. Link as subarticles, move/merge or vfd. Speaking of FAC, I invite you to comment on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Poland (1945-1989). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 29 June 2005 08:02 (UTC)

Article too long and unwieldy: Division is needed now

Hi, in response to the above: This article is taking too long to load, do you know why...it's too large by now. Please READ Wikipedia:Article size and Wikipedia:How to break up a page and hopefully it will become something as described in Wikipedia:Long article layout!!! It is well known that a Wikipedia article should basically not be longer than 30K. In fact the recommendation is that articles should be between 20K-30K. The original article here was approaching 90K (almost the length of three articles) and material is constantly being added, enough for four to five articles (according to the 20k-30k guidelines). It is therefore very normal and standard procedure at Wikipedia for articles to be divided this way. Furthermore it was divided in such a way as to allow room for more material to be added. Likewise, the division by centuries is correct from a historical perspective, and it did not harm the subject-matter. (People do tend to get attached to long articles they have worked on, but it is a fact of life that at some point you cannot squeeze all the needed info onto one page...and as in all growth, subdivision is the order of the day, otherwise you are dealing with a bloated beached whale that is blocking the way.) IZAK 29 June 2005 09:22 (UTC)

The 32kb size is a recommended but by no means an obligatory guideline. While I'd be happy to see this article shortened to ~50kb and some excessive material moved into subarticles, simply gutting it down to lead with list of articles is wrong. I'd recommend creating subarticles based on existing sections, then summarising them one by one. By creating the centuries-articles you increase your workload - now you need not only to summarize, but to split materials spanning over two centuries, in fact increasing rewrite burden and workload. One more thing of advice: I have created 10 FAs now, including several with subarticles (Polish-Soviet War) being the prime example. Most edits happen to main article, very few to subarticles, hence bear in mind then when you move materials to subarticles, it will be much less widely read - most people are content with reading the main. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 29 June 2005 18:38 (UTC)

Piotrus: You are just dragging things out here. Read what I wrote above from Wikipedia's guidelines, so cut the crap. The article takes tooooo looooong to load, it's bulky and top-heavy and nothing is lost when it's presented in Wikipedia sections. IZAK 5 July 2005 08:06 (UTC)

IZAK: And your version is way tooooo short. You are gutting a near-FA quality article into something little better then a stub. I agree it should be shortened, and excess material moved to subarticles, but at best, only 50% of material need to be moved. Template is ok, but the article should use template {{main}} and keep current subsections. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 5 July 2005 09:17 (UTC)

Piotrus: Our "goal in life" on Wikipedia is NOT to create articles that will be "FAs" for a few days. It's to create a functional and practical Internet encyclopedia that is computer (i.e. user)-friendly. IZAK 5 July 2005 09:28 (UTC)

FA article means they are functional, practical, etc. The size limit is not obligatory. I appreciate your effort in improving this article, but DELETING the entire content is not helpful. Please, summarise the subarticles so that the article is about 40-50kb, but leaving just lead, see also, references and a template is not an improvement. Also, you didn't copy relevant references to subarticles, which is a violation of Wikipedia:Cite sources if you want to quote various guidelines. I don't want to fight a revert war with you, but I will oppose deleting the contents of this useful article. I recommend you look at history of Polish September Campaign and Polish-Soviet War, which were summarised from almost 80-110kb to half that size, and use this strategy here. None of those simply had their content removed. They are both FA now. Also, the titles of your subarticles are misleading: Jewish Polish history origins to 1600s, besides the rather strange use of word origns, in fact covers period to 1650s (Chmielnicki Uprising); Jewish Polish history during the 1700s starts from 1650s. The rest is more or less correct, but there are general problems - for example, the 1800s period is in fact the period from 1795 (3rd partition) to 1918 (independence). The 1900s is the period from 1918 to 1989. And I think that The Holocaust camps and Poland should be linked from the IIWW related part, no need to have it separated strangely between 1989 and post 1989 articles. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 5 July 2005 14:06 (UTC)

Piotrus: No-one was "deleting" the content of this article. ALL content was put into each of the new sections using good order and logic. The lead article should be only an overview. Since all the articles are part of one series, and the lead is the main one, the sources are not lost. Furthermore, you can't compare over 1,000 years of packed Jewish-Polish history with one "campaign" article or other. This is a very broad topic. There is no need to have this become a "FA", as that matters little about its encyclopedic value. What's wrong with the word "origins"? Any scholar of history knows that dividing subjects by centuries requires an acceptable minor over-lap with a little reference to earlier and later events (you need some background and follow-up info in any case) as long as the main subject remains the events of that century. "The Holocaust camps and Poland" are in fact none other than German camps in occupied Poland during World War II (if you would have checked the link you would see that it is disambiguated with that article.) Finally, again, you are in great error to assume that this subject can be "squashed" into one article. IZAK 5 July 2005 23:57 (UTC)

IZAK, I have reverted your changes because cutting and dividing this article is probably the last step in its process of rewriting/revising. See history of changes/revisions and, often heated, discussion. I don't feel this process has been completed. Thus your action of splitting the article is sidetracking this process. Please be patient - article has been neglected for such a long time that little bit more time before finalizing it wouldn't be a problem - would it? Please delete the subarticles and let's continue working on revising and optimizing the existing article. Also, I agree with Piotrus: the wording in your template sound strange: "Holocaust camps"? not German? or German Nazi? --Ttyre 6 July 2005 13:22 (UTC)

Subarticles can stay, although they may need to be renamed. In order for this to reach FA we need to add some more pics (see discussion with Good above) and yes, summarize (but not delete) the contencts into subarticles. IZAK, go read up Wikipedia:What is a Featured Article. Eventually every article should be FA, so actions that move them farther from such status are plain wrong. And as for 'The Holocaust camps and Poland', the title needs to be changed to 'The Holocaust camps and occupied Poland' (or in instead of and) to avoid any confusion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 6 July 2005 14:39 (UTC)

Is resizing the pics would help to improve the loading time? I will resize a couple of them to see the effect. --Ttyre 6 July 2005 15:17 (UTC)

While I feel the article is generally well written, and the 32k limit is indeed only a guideline, the current 82k size of the article is significantly longer than a Wikipedia article should be. I strongly recommend that a couple of the largest subsections be turned into their own articles, so that total size can be brought down to, say, 50k. Jayjg ^(talk) 6 July 2005 16:46 (UTC)

Beautiful new JewishPolishHistory template created

Notice: Please use the helpful and beautiful {{JewishPolishHistory}} template, (see Wikipedia:Template messages.) This Template:JewishPolishHistory follows all the Wikipedia guidelines outlined in Wikipedia:Long article layout. Thank you. IZAK 5 July 2005 09:20 (UTC)

Introduction

Made edits to replace emotionally charged words with more neutral – see the language used in the introduction to the Holocaust article. Also, before 1968 there was no state-sponsored anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist campaigns. Among the 3 waves of Jewish emigration from Poland: 1945-1948, 1957-1959, 1968-1970 only the last one has been attributed to the state-sponsored anti-Zionist campaign. --Ttyre 1 July 2005 13:50 (UTC)

Rising anti-Semitism - kosher slaughter

As far as I can recall, kosher slaughter was banned in Poland in 1936. Shouldn't this be documented in the "Rising anti-Semitism" section? Jayjg ^(talk) 6 July 2005 21:14 (UTC)

It may, however I think that in discussion somewhere above Halibutt mentioned it was a result of wider sanitary law, not designed specifically at Jewish activities. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 6 July 2005 21:39 (UTC)

That may have been the purported reason for it; however, it was clearly just an imitation of Nazi laws instituted a year earlier. Other European countries did the same. Jayjg ^(talk) 6 July 2005 21:51 (UTC)

Also, I haven't been able to find the Halibutt discussion, could you direct me to it please? Jayjg ^(talk) 7 July 2005 16:48 (UTC)

Neither can I. I am *sure* I saw him explaining this, but where? Best thing - ask him :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 11:52, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

My RfA drew my attention to this case and I'll try to explain a bit. I don't remember all the details, so it would be helpful if anyone could check the relevant acts of the Polish parliament from the time, particularily:

• International sanitary convention of June 21, 1926 (of which Poland was a part)
• rozporządzenie Ministra Opieki Społecznej z dnia 26 września 1935 r. o utrzymaniu porządku i czystości w miejscach publicznych i niektórych miejscach prywatnych
• Rozporządzenie Ministra Opieki Społecznej z dnia 30 stycznia 1936 r. o rozciągnięciu mocy obowiązującej rozporządzenia Ministra Opieki Społecznej z dnia 26 września 1935 r. o utrzymaniu porządku i czystości w miejscach publicznych i niektórych miejscach prywatnych na niektóre miejscowości
• Rozporządzenie Ministra Opieki Społecznej z dnia 5 lutego 1936 r. o obowiązku zgłaszania zachorowań na grypę
• Rozporządzenie Ministra Przemysłu i Handlu z dnia 26 lutego 1936 r. w porozumieniu z Ministrami: Rolnictwa i Reform Rolnych oraz Spraw Wewnętrznych o powołaniu komisyj nadzorczych nad obrotem zwierzętami gospodarskiemi i drobiem oraz nad hurtowym obrotem mięsa tudzież nad organizacją targowisk
• Rozporządzenie Ministra Przemysłu i Handlu z dnia 26 lutego 1936 r. w porozumieniu z Ministrami: Rolnictwa i Reform Rolnych oraz Spraw Wewnętrznych o notowaniach cen i rejestracji umów sprzedaży zwierząt gospodarskich i mięsa
• Rozporządzenie Ministra Rolnictwa i Reform Rolnych z dnia 27 marca 1936 r. o wprowadzeniu w życie na pewnych obszarach Państwa niektórych postanowień ustawy o nadzorze nad hodowlą bydła, trzody chlewnej i owiec
• Ustawa z dnia 17 kwietnia 1936 r. o uboju zwierząt gospodarskich w rzeźniach
• Ustawa z dnia 22 kwietnia 1936 r. o mleczarstwie
• Rozporządzenie Ministra Rolnictwa i Reform Rolnych z dnia 26 sierpnia 1936 r. wydane w porozumieniu z Ministrami: Przemysłu i Handlu, Spraw Wewnętrznych oraz Wyznań Religijnych i Oświecenia Publicznego o uboju zwierząt gospodarskich
• And some more

However, I did check the details of the anti-kosher thing and it still seems like an absurd, or at least unsupported accusation to me. In short, all of the abovementioned acts of the parliament and ministers were part of a larger set of acts proposed by Felicjan Sławoj-Składkowski and dubbed the Sanitary Law. The set of acts regulated all aspects of sanitary regulations, from the necessity to build toilets in farms (hence dubbed sławojka in Polish) to obligation to report cases of flu and tuberculosis and from sanitary regulations for restaurants to meat selling permissions to market traders.

The Ustawa z dnia 17 kwietnia 1936 r. o uboju zwierząt gospodarskich w rzeźniach (Act of April 17, 1936, on Slaughter of Cattle in Slaughterhouses) was passed as a measure to regulate all aspects of the slaughter, from setting exact time the meat can be kept to setting the way the bleeding should be done. It was created in cooperation with the Society of Care for the Animals (Towarzystwo Opieki nad Zwierzętami) and was generally thought as a good measure. However, shortly after it was passed by the parliament, a group of Jewish MPs of the Sejm have started a campaign in which they argued that the Act would permit no slaughter in kosher slaughterhouses as in most cases they were treated as shops by the law and not as slaughterhouses as such. Also, another problem was that the kosher slaughterhouses often did not made the animals unconciouss before bleeding them. Finally, the law stated that the way of stunning and bleeding the animals was to be accepted by local sanitary authorities and the Jewish MPs feared that this could serve as a measure to limit the kosher slaughter since the local authorities could as well permit only non-kosher slaughter. Though the campaign in the media was quite heated, the Jewish MPs and the ministry of agriculture and agricultural reforms started extensive consultations.

All in all, the consultations included the Jewish MPs themselves, as well as the Minister of Agriculture, Minister of Education and Religions, Trade and Commerce, and Internal Affairs. In the end, the act was ammended on August 26, 1936, and the disputed part was ammended so as to let the slaughter in kosher shops be handled in accordance with the law. The full text of the ammendment is available here in Polish, below I'll only quote some relevant parts which were previously disputed. However, the ban on slaughtering the animals outside of the proper slaughterhouses was not lifted and the kosher butchers had to acquire sanitary permits just like any other slaughterhouse in Poland. Which, BTW, was the case of thousands of non-kosher slaughterhouses as well.

WARNING! THE AMMENDMENT QUOTED BELOW MIGHT BE DRASTIC TO VEGETARIANS OR PEOPLE WITHOUT STRONG STOMACHS

• § 1.1. The slaughter of cattle can be done outside of slaughterhouses in the case of
  • • a) slaughter out of dire need, in accordance with the laws on examination of cattle and meat, and
    • b) slaughter for the own usage of a household, in accordance with the laws on examination of cattle and meat, as long as the slaughter is done in a town that has no public slaughterhouse and the animals show no signs of disease or other signs that would suggest the meat is inedible.
• (...) - this one is on horses, so I ommit it here - Halibutt
• § 2. Cattle and horses entering the slaughterhouse should have their eyes veiled
• § 3. Animals bound for slaughter should be moved to the slaughterhouse carefully, so as to prevent their legs from slippering and the animals from falling.
• § 4. Before the animals are stunned or made unconscious in any other way, they are to be immobilized; during their immobilization they are to be treated humanely, without causing them additional suffering; if the immobilization requires binding an animal, the binding should be done only as far as it is required to stun the animal.
• § 5.1. Immediately after the immobilization the animal is to be stunned or made unconscious in any other way and only then it is to be bled.
  • 5.2. In order to stun the animal or make it unconscious, the following methods can be used:tosować:
    • a) mechanical
    • b) electrical
    • Strangling or breaking the spine is forbidden
  • 5.3. Stunning or otherwise making the animal unconscious is to be handled so as to avoid causing unnecessary suffering. It is to be made quickly and permanently enough for the animal to be bled without regaining the consciousness. It is to be handled by tools accepted by the Ministry of Agriculture and Agricultural Reforms.
• § 6. The tools used are to be kept in good shape at all times. It is not allowed to use tools that are out of shape or working wrongly.
• § 7. The manner in which the animals are stunned or made unconscious is to be explained in regulations of all particular slaughterhouses or (my underlining - Halibutt) the regulations by local sanitary authorities entitled with examination of cattle and meat.
• § 8. The animal is to be skinned only after its death has been verified
• § 9. The place the slaughter is carried in is to be cleansed of blood and other discharges immediately afterwards
• § 10. and 11.- on legal age of butchers who are to be 18yo or older, and on who is allowed to assist the slaughter - ommitted - Halibutt
• § 12. The local sanitary authorities entitled with examination of meat and cattle are to check whether the animals are killed without causing them unnecessary suffering and pain.
• § 13. The regulations of this act do not apply to:
  • • a) slaughter done in farms that have been struck by a disease, in accordance with the regulations on prevention of infectious diseases,
    • b) In the §§ 4, 5, 6, and 7, the slaughter of animals for the groups of citizens, whose religion demands special means of slaughtering.

So, the ammendment I quoted above settled all disputes and the law was introduced, without any further opposition from the Jews. Note that the law was the first such sanitary law in Poland. It was to replace two earlier acts of the president (of 1927 and 1928, AFAIR) and the act of 1936 (with ammendments) was in force until... 1994 (the Ustawa o nadzorze weterynaryjnym). Also note that both the act and the ammendment did not come into life until January 1, 1937, so there was not a single day the "anti-Jewish" law was in force. That's why I believe that the remarks of government-led anti-Semitism is an absurd and factual incorrectness. Finally, take note that similar concerns with bleeding animals alive have been raised by American media as recently as 2004, so it was not only a Polish problem ([26], [27]) and the kosher problems with slaughtering and bleeding animals are well explained here, I believe. While I understand that various people want to accuse pre-war Poland of state-sponsored anti-Semitism, the argument of anti-kosher regulations simply does not hold the water. BTW, while I am a Polish Jew, I don't follow kosher at all. Halibutt 21:01, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Be that as it may, this source will be of interest: Anti-Jewish Legislation in Interwar Poland. Along with a number of anti-Jewish pieces of legislation passed, one of the things it mentions is this: As unemployment rose in Poland, peaking in 1935, it did not take long for antisemites to claim that the Jews occupied all places of work and that they should make way for Poles. Consequently, legislation was introduced in 1936 to ban the kosher slaughter of beef on “humanitarian grounds,” which once it went into effect in January 1939 effectively removed 40,000 Jews from the meat trade. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:15, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

If it's the 1936 act I mentioned above, then that guy is apparently wrong. Especially that it would be quite strange for a vacatio legis he suggests to last 3 years. In most other cases it lasted not more than a year in pre-war Poland and I guess the kosher ban is simply an invention by someone who read the media news of the epoch, but apparently missed the resolution. I admit I never read the essay mentioned in that article, but other cases seem a two-way road to me. For instance the Or, to give another example cited by Rudnicki, legislation was passed in 1938 that effectively eliminated the opportunity of Jewish law school graduates to enter the Polish bar seems strange to me. I remember there was some regulation on whether the religious schools were equal to public schools in that the graduates were to be granted equal rights or not, but frankly speaking I can't remember what was the resolution. In any way, it must've touched both Catholics and Jews alike. As to the Jewish law schools - I would have to see some proof. The name or date the law was published might be enough to gather enough evidence for me. Do you know it? Halibutt 21:35, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, in case anyone wondered: the ammendment translated above did not mention Jews by name for various reasons. First of all, the Sanacja were pro-state and did not differentiate between various groups of citizens. Also, this ammendment created a back door not only for kosher Jews, but also for other denominations with similar laws on slaughter. For instance the Karaims and Tatars who followed the halaal laws. Halibutt 02:14, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks to the magic of Google Print, we can wrap up this controversy quickly, once and for all. Here is a quote I found from the authoritative: The Jews in the Modern World: A History Since 1750 by Hilary L Rubinstein, Daniel C Cohn-Sherbok, Abraham J Edelheit, William D Rubinstein, published by Oxford University Press in 2002. Let me quote the full relevant paragraph from page 142, with key parts highlighted. Too see the relevant page yourself, follow this link (I hope it will stay but if not, just search the book on Google Print).

Because Poland's Jewry was so large and because the Polish majority always resisted very extreme forms of antisemitism, Polish Jews were able, to a certain extent, to protect themselves against the worst manifestations of antisemitism. In 1925 the Polish prime minister, Wladyslaw Grabski, enacted a tough budget which many Jewish businessmen felt was aimed primarily at them. Following fierce protests, the government was forced to modify its taxation measures. In 1936, a serious attempt to outlaw shechita (ritual slaughtering, according to the laws of the kashrut) was masterminded by rightwingers in the Polish parliament. The Polish government was again forced to back down after Jewish protests. The slide by Poland into overt antisemitism in the late 1930s was also halted by growing hostility to Nazi Germany, which after 1938 came to be seen as Poland's greatest enemy.

This clearly shows that though the measure to ban ritual slaughter was considered, it failed to enter into law. Balcer 03:38, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, all it shows is sources disagreeing. There's no indication that the source you have quoted is any more authoritative than the source I quoted. Indeed, the link I gave was to an expert in that area of history, whereas the authors of the book you have quoted are generalists. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:25, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Actually, to be precise, the link you provided is not a link to material from the book by Szymon Rudnicki, but only to a webpage containing a brief review of that book by some scholar from West Virginia University. It is quite possible that the reviewer made a mistake in reading the source material, as happens quite frequently. The fact that the quote comes from a webpage instead of a reputable publication also diminishes its credibility, at least to me. If you want to claim you have the authoritative source here which trumps all the other sources provided, you should provide specific references from the original book to make sure the information given on the webpage is correct. Balcer 05:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Quod erat demostrandum. Thanks, Balcer. Halibutt 06:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

The magic of Google Print: "in 1936 ritual kosher slaughter was banned in the city", Encyclopedia of Jewish Life Before and During the Holocaust, "Katowice". [28] "Some local communities began passing ordinances even before the national government considered the matter.[29] "the bill to ban ritual slaughter altogether was defeated, and replaced with one that limited the practice to the 'factual needs' of the Jewish community (March 21, 1936)... In March 1939 the Sejm passed a measure that would have outlawed shechitah altogether by 1942. But before the Senate had a chance to consider it, Germany invaded Poland and decided the issue for them."[30] The Catholic Church and Antisemitism Poland, 1933-1939. Jayjg ^(talk) 17:40, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

It seems to be that the reference I provided is quite authoritative (Oxford University Press) and very recent (2002). If sources conflict, we simply have to decide which source is the most reliable. Correct me if I am wrong, but the sources from Google Print you are quoting above do seem to indicate that the Polish government did not manage to implement the law, which was what the whole discussion was about. What would have happened in 1942 is pure speculation. What local communities did is also beside the point, since that was not under discussion. Balcer 05:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

I couldn't agree with Balcer more. Please take note that what happened to certain private organizations (trade unions, for instance) had little to do with government or the state as a whole. Also, mentioning certain cities is quite misleading and prone to misinterpretation. Just consider the case of Cisów, a small village near Kielce. There were three Jewish families there before the war: there was one baker, one butcher and one tradesman, mostly dealing with furniture and various tools. In 1938 the butcher was arrested for murdering his wife and the kosher slaughterhouse was closed. So, we could say that In 1938 the Polish government, aided by the police, closed down the only kosher slaughterhouse serving the local Jewish community of Cisów. While this is certainly true, it's definitely not the whole truth... Halibutt 18:11, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Tactics and Division

IZAK, I think you inserted some good information here, but it also seems to have the effect of (1) entirely changing the nature of the page from a social history to a religious one and (2) made it very difficult to do the project you originally proposed, which was divide this page in a logical, chronological way. You basically removed all of the information on the page, placed it into somewhat arbitrary century-based subarticles without summaries or divisions on the main page, and inserted a history of Jewish religious life in Poland. I was planning on trying to work with the other editors here to make sure that the page as it previously existed was divided and summarized to reach the 50k or so that Jayg suggested, but now I am not sure what to do with this new information, and am frustrated that the nature of the page was changed so radically as it was being developed. Every piece of information on the page is now somewhere else without a summary, the tone and nature of the page has changed so that you would not even expect to find this information in a subarticle. I personally think that we return to a summarize-and-spin-off approach to the article as it existed yesterday to reduce its size by a third to a half with sensical subarticles (mostly summarizing the older history, leaving more modern history more complete) and we move all of IZAK's new stuff to a Impact of the Jews of Poland or something subarticle (it would also be good for IZAK to source some of this material). This whole thing has just been made more complicated, which is really annoying. What do the other editors think? --Goodoldpolonius2 7 July 2005 13:59 (UTC)

• Hiya Goodoold: I cannot fathom what you are saying. Do you mean to state that Poland's Jews lived only within a "social history"? Good grief, how narrow minded and POV that is! Are you not aware that most of Poland's Jews lived primarily a religious life for most of their history, following in the ancient ways of their ancestors? Over the last 500 centuries they mostly did NOT assimilate like their German/French/English brethren and they were spared the upheavals of their Russian/Lithuanian/Ukranian brethren. Poland was a bastion of Torah Judaism whether you or the mostly POV Polish non-Jewish editors like it, or admit to it, or not. The truth hurts, I know, what can I do, get used to it. How dare you strive to present the Polish Jews as "Jews without Judaism", they were not living in the American Mid-West or out in Siberia you know, but rather they were the center of all serious religious life prior to the Holocaust. To miss this point, as this article has done till now on a graaaaaand scale, even making snide comments about the Kabbalistic practice of Hasidic Judaism being "superstition" just goes to show you how ignorant and prejudiced the editors of this article have been so far. And that you have been gamely following their lead, rather than trying to understand the history of Poland's Jews in terms of Jewish history is a great pity indeed. A great inaccuracy has been righted and all you can do is gripe. Which points don't you like in the article? Too many rabbis? Shall I put in a picture of a Frankist that converted to Catholicism, would that make you "happy" instead? I have referenced all my new additions with multitudinous links to dozens of other Wikipedia articles, that's more than citing unknown Polish books (who reads them by the way?) by doubtful revisionist (probably even anti-Semitic) historians desirous of painting Poland's Jews as a "quirky bunch of dorks" from what I can tell reading some of the stuff they put in so far (I'll get rid of that junk too in good time). Please point to any facts that I have stated that are not correct and we can discuss them, but please avoid purposeless carping, and don't call in support from the notoriously biased and POV Wikipedia "Polish brigade"! IZAK 7 July 2005 15:16 (UTC)
  • Hiya back IZAK. I wanted to clarify a few points. First, I never said your contributions were not valuable, we needed more on the religious life of Poland, which was missing as much of the early history (including the information on "superstition") came from the 1904 Jewish Encyclopedia, not from me or from other editors. Besides, if you read the original passage, it indicates that the Baal Shem Tov and Hasidim served as an antidote to superstition and formalism, not that they caused it. Secondly, your expansions are useful, but don't justify the bile of your attack. Phrases like "how dare you," calling all sources (including historians from Yad Vashem, no less) "doubtful" or "antisemitic," and accusing me of "purposeless carping" does not create civilized discussion. I am not your enemy here (nor are the other editors), and I am not sure why I should be subject to such vehemence. In any case, the religious history is useful, but it is not "Jews without Judaism" to suggest that there was a social history to life in Poland as well - for goodness sake, this article parallels most books on the Jewish history of Poland, whether by Jewish authors or non-Jewish authors, which always covers the history of the Jewish community. I appreciate your devotion to focusing on Torah Judaism as the only key to understanding the Jewish experience in Poland, it is a valid POV, but one could just as easily choose a different and equally valid perspective for the article: persecution vs. safety, or the development of Zionism, or (as many of the Poles seem to) the relationship between the Jewish community and Poland as a whole. Again, your comments are useful, but please try to respect those of others as well, you don't have to replace every other piece of text to get it across, and it is easier to work together if you don't attack right off the bat. --Goodoldpolonius2 7 July 2005 20:36 (UTC)

I agree Goldoldpolonius; the earlier chronological structure and information should be retained, and IZAK's information incorporated into it, then sub-articles should be split out. Jayjg ^(talk) 7 July 2005 16:51 (UTC)

I also agree with Good. Revert to the pre-IZAK version. IZAK version should be copied to a subpage (or other article) and incoprorated into relevant article(s) as needed. Since we want to shorten the article, I think we can move IZAK additions to a subarticle 'Religious aspects of life of Polish Jewry' section or something similar. IZAK, please be respectful and use talk BEFORE making major edits. You are doing at least as much harm as good with them. Be bold, sure, but don't destroy other people's work, try to reach a consensus and cooperate with us, instead of accusing us of ignorance and narrow mindness (Wikipedia:No personal attacks, please). I find your comments about 'POVed Polish brigade' insulting, but then, it does sound right from the person who listed Anti-Polonism on VfD. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 7 July 2005 17:18 (UTC)

I have moved IZAK version to History of the Jews in Poland/Temp. I am sure IZAK will move it to a more fitting name in mainspace soon. His article is valuable and we should definetly link it from the restored main History, and incorporate some of the key facts he added. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 7 July 2005 17:27 (UTC)

• I agree with Goodoldpolonius. I also think it a good idea to create a separate article for the religious aspects of Polish Jewry. Among others for the arguments stated by IZAK, the subject is just too significant and wide to be merely mentioned here. I also would like to be able to see the article at least for some time. I'm writing some new things to it and it's really difficult, when the article changes or disappears couple times a day. IZAK, please, calm down. Why possibly we should not like the fact of Jews being here more religious than elsewhere? What's wrong with being religious? Moreover, please, don't throw in us all the insults. Do we really deserve it? Disregarding Polish sources you also show your lack of respect to Polish Jews, as they are mostly authors of the sources cited by us here. I hope you don't want to say that the American Jews are knowledgeable while the Polish ones are narrow-minded? --SylwiaS 7 July 2005 18:02 (UTC)

Subarticles

As our most needed task is to move excess materials to subarticles, I think we should start by agreeing on their names. Current subarticles created by IZAK are useful, but not perfect (IMHO). I will list his template below. I'd suggest moving the religious aspect article to it. With the exception of 'The Holocaust camps and Poland' article, which actually links to German_camps_in_occupied_Poland_during_World_War_II the rest have names just as the template shows. I don't think that article is very relevant (ok as a link in text, but why a separate entry in the template?), especially as we will have an more relevant subarticle if we go with my proposal (Jewish Polish history (1939-1945)). I'd suggest renaming the articles so they follow the dates as our current sections and history of Poland articles. This would also allow easy link (or see also) from those articles, and use of main template in the current article. I.e. we would have:

• Jewish Polish history (until 1385)
• Jewish Polish history (1385-1569)
• Jewish Polish history (1569-1795)
• Jewish Polish history (1795-1918)
• Jewish Polish history (1918-1939)
• Jewish Polish history (1939-1945)
• Jewish Polish history (1945-1989)
• Jewish Polish history (1989-present)

What do you think? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 8 July 2005 21:20 (UTC)

Piotrus, I just tried a division myself. I tried to reduce to the 50k suggested by Jayjg, and incorporate the info added by IZAK about the importance of religious life. I also wanted to preserve recent history as much as possible (if you call the last 250 years recent!) without spinning it off to other articles, since that is what is more likely to be of interest to the reader or casual researcher. Thus, I mostly pushed early history into new articles, and kept everything from Russia's control to modern times. If I was going to trim further, it would be in the 1945-present catagory, but I wanted to get opinions. What is everyone's thoughts on the article now? --Goodoldpolonius2 04:50, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Looks good. We can still keep the main templates reffering to Polish history, I think. And we should definetly move the History of the Jews in Poland/Temp into mainspace. Any suggestions for the name? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Update. Instead of main, we should use one of the Template_talk:Main#Comparison_with_related_templates. Which one do you like the best? I think Template:Seesubarticle is quite nice. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:56, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Good in general, but History of the Jews in Poland (1572-1795) is much more coherent than the summary of that article here. Why is the section order here different? Jayjg ^(talk) 16:23, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Could you expand on this? I am not sure if I get your point. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:56, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Jayjg, its because the original order was actually non-chronological, since it was drawn largely from the Jewish Encyclopedia, so I had to make it more historically coherent to work as a summary. For example section on Jewish Religion and Culture, which I expanded to include IZAK's material, really covered pre-1572 as well. I seperated out this aspect from the history, which is now strictly chronological and historical, covering the early Commonwealth, the Deluge and Cossaks, followed by the Saxons and partitions. The details of the life of the Jewish community are now in the Development of Judaism section. --Goodoldpolonius2 19:59, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

History of JEWS and Judaism in Poland vs. History of Poland and its impact on Jews?

Hello everyone, I was away this past week so I was unbale to respond timeously to all the comments, but above all, I am really glad that I have encouraged some serious re-evaluation about the content and organization of these articles. There is one very serious problem at work here that many do not seem to grasp: Jewish history is NOT an "adjunct" of any other non-Jewish nation's history. Yes certainly, if kingdoms, empires, nations, and countries have had Jews living in their midst then they will surely have their own POV way of looking at "the life and times of the Jews in our midst etc" and use regular local "standards" of that non-Jewish country's history and culture to evaluate "their" Jews. But the truth is that the Jews always come with their OWN long defined purposeful direction in history, and historically they have ALWAYS based their own historical goals and functions in any society upon Judaism primarily/only, and in fact whilst present in whatever "host country" they may have found themsleves, they have managed to add to and enlarge their own Jewish heritage, and hence there is a unique "Jewish Polish history" as such, and it's NOT merely a narrow-sighted case of a "history of Jews in Poland" or anywhere else. To miss this point is to miss the way the Jews have moved from country to country and civilization to civilization and have never ever stopped being Jews first and at root never losing their vitality and identity as Jews, and this is all rooted in their belief system of Judaism founded on the Torah, Tanakh, and Talmud. There is no "Reform Judaism" in Poland for very good reasons, because the Polish Jews were primarlitly religious Jews, which just so happens to be also called "Orthodox Judaism", not a mere "side-show", but a central core and foundation for understanding Jewish Polish history. IZAK 05:41, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

So? Jewish-Polish history is the history of Jews in Poland. I am sorry, but I fail to see the differece. Jews, living in Poland, had their own unique culture, obviously different both from 'mainstream' Polish culture of from Jewish cultures outside Poland. This is why this article exists, after all. Are you suggesting this article is incomple, unnecessary or wrongly named? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 13:51, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Piotrus, what do you mean "So?". This only shows you are missing the point. Like most of their brethren throughout Jewish history Jews in Poland were primarily devoted to Judaism and at the same time lived in Poland. The Jews were generally not connected to the "culture" of Poland (by the way, what culture are you talking about? boar hunting? beer drinking?). The gentiles of Poland were Christians and Poland's culture was basically restricted to the practices of the Roman Catholic Church excluding the Jews! (Only if some Jews chose to become apostates to Judaism, such as the notorious Frankists, did they mesh with the Poles. Otherwise the Church would wait to forcibly kidnap Jewish kids when it could.) That's about it. Only in the last hundred years of Jewish life in Poland, with greater seculariztion, did a minority of some Polish Jews get involved with Polish secular life insofar as it existed in some schools and universities. The article fails to note the scope and intensity of JEWISH life in Poland, and presents a false picture of a pretty tame bunch of poor little zhids not acknowledging the vastness and richness of the Torah-guided lives of Polish Jews. IZAK 07:17, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

I am afraid I can't simply agree with you. Jews and their culture formed an important part of both History of Poland and Culture of Poland. Not only did they influence it, but they were also influenced by it. It is a fact they had and kept their unique culture throug centuries, and that religion was an important part of it. Feel free to write more about it, and History_of_the_Jews_in_Poland/Temp still needs to be moved to mainspace under a better name. But to say their life revolved only around religion, and that it had next to no connection to Polish culture is fairly POV - could you provide some sources for this theory? PS. Polish culture was strongly influenced by Protestantism. You do need to read up more on Poland, I think. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 10:18, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

IZAK, your statements re. ..."culture" of Poland... violate Wikipedia:Civility rules. Please refrain from comments like that. --Ttyre 10:28, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Jews living in Poland

Demographic situation of Jews in Poland in 2000 according to Rabbi Prof. Moses Schorr Centre [1]:

There were 220,000-250,000 Polish Jews in Poland after WWII. During all emigrations about 150,000 left Poland. It is estimated then that about 100,000-130,000 Jews remained out of which 30,000-40,000 have positive Jewish identity, while the rest assimilated completely. Most of the people live in: Warsaw 2-3,000; Wrocław 2-3,000; Lower Silesia 5,000; Katowice and Upper Silesia 3,000; Łódź 1,000. Remaining communities like Kraków, Szczecin, Bielsko Biała, Legnica are smaller. Only about 10,000 Jews is active in religious life and the number is usually taken to statistics. I think, however, that all the above numbers should be included in the article as in articles referring to other countries like the USA, France, Germany the numbers refer to all Jews, not only the religious ones. I wanted to add the numbers directly to the article but they disagree with what is already said there. What do you propose? --SylwiaS 18:05, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

If yours are sourced (As they are) and those in text are not, move your to mainbody and the older unsourced here. If both are sourced, give sourced estimates (from...by...to...by). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 18:53, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

I wanted to do it, but it would demand many changes in all the sections referring to post-war Poland, so I would like Goodoldpolonius to have a look at it first and compare it to the sources he has. It seems that the numbers given in the article are exaggerated or some of them e.g. the number of emigrants in the first post-war period refers in reality to all emigrations not only the one. I will wait for him to turn on his computer and have a look, if he lives in the western part of the US, he has noon now. :) --SylwiaS 19:19, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Population Figures

Sorry, guys, I am back on this article. I think these numbers are suspect, but since I can't read Polish, it is difficult to examine them more deeply. They do not agree with outside sources I have read. For example, Yale University's YIVO institute gives the following numbers (long excerpts to follow):

It is estimated that some 30,000-50,000 Jews were present in the territories that formed the new Polish state at the time of liberation. These numbers included about 10,000 Jews in the lands east of the Vistula, 15,000-20,000 in western Poland, and an additional 5,000-20,000 who continued to live as non-Jews under false identities they had assumed during the war. This total represented approximately 8-14 percent of the full remnant of Polish Jewry after the Holocaust, which numbered around 350,000. An additional 70,000-80,000 Polish Jews were liberated from camps in Germany and Austria. Between May and December 1945, some 40,000 such Jews returned to Poland, bringing the number registered with the Central Committee of Polish Jews as of 1 January 1946 to 81,500. By far the largest group of Polish Jewish survivors (about 230,000 individuals) spent the war years in the Soviet Union, most having been deported to the Soviet interior between 1939 and 1941. About 180,000 of them opted to return to Poland in accordance with the Polish-Soviet repatriation agreements of September 1944 and July 1945. The Central Committee counted 240,000 Jews in Poland as of 1 July 1946, although because of duplicate registrations the actual number was likely only between 205,000 and 210,000. An additional 30,000 Polish Jews who had initially elected to remain in the USSR returned to Poland in 1957. The Jewish population of postwar Poland was in flux, however, not only as a result of the arrival of successive waves of refugees but also because of two great surges of emigration. During the first wave, from July through October 1945, 40,000-50,000 Jews left the country; during the second, from May through September 1946, more than 100,000 additional Jews departed. A smaller but still incessant stream of emigrants was also recorded outside of these periods of mass flight. Thus it appears that between 266,000 and 281,000 Jews set foot on Polish territory at some time between July 1944 and July 1946. By the middle of 1947, however, only about 90,000 remained...

...Despite stabilization, about 30,000 additional Jews left Poland in the two years after the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. This exodus took place against the background of government measures limiting the role of the Jewish institutions whose creation the regime had encouraged in the years immediately following liberation...Emigration became possible again between 1957 and 1959, following the return to power of Władysław Gomułka, secretary-general of the Communist Party, who had been deposed in 1948 for opposing certain aspects of Stalinist policy. Gomułka exploited the fact of the Jewish origins of some of the leaders he overthrew in order to present himself as the true initiator of a monoethnic Poland. In this connection, he encouraged Jews who continued to identify as such to leave the country. Almost 50,000 did so, most going to Israel...

...Those who remained enjoyed several years of relative quiet, and the visibility of Jews in Polish public life faded markedly. Intermarriage became the norm. Nonetheless, in March 1968, following the severing of diplomatic relations with Israel after the Six-Day War and in the context of mounting internal disputes in the regime’s higher echelons, the Gomułka government began an aggressive public anti-Jewish campaign in which Jews--or, more strictly speaking, “Zionists”--were presented as Poland’s enemy within. The Interior Ministry compiled a card index of all Polish citizens of Jewish origin, even those who had been detached from organized Jewish life for generations. Jews were removed from jobs in public service, including from teaching positions in schools and universities. Pressure was placed upon them to leave the country by bureaucratic actions aimed at undermining their sources of livelihood and sometimes even by physical brutality. Over the next two years, some 25,000 Jews fled, reducing the Jewish population of Poland to between 5,000 and 10,000 individuals...

...In 2000, Poland’s Jewish population was estimated to have risen to as many as 10,000 or 12,000.

-David Engel, "Poland, "YIVO Encyclopedia of the Jews of Eastern Europe, Yale University Press, article available here in pdf:[31]

The immigration generally agree with everything else I have seen, for example, most sources indicate that around 150,000 Polish Jews left Poland immediately after the war, see, for example, the well-sourced Genocide: The Aftermath (online book). Similarly, the US Holocaust museum has the population of remaining Polish Jews at 45,000 in 1950[32], which is lower than the YIVO entry.

As for counting the Jewish population, I am not sure what measure the quote uses. While surveys do not count just religious Jews, Jews who have no Jewish identity - do not identify themselves as Jews, converted to another faith, do not know they are Jewish, etc. - are not generally counted, and it is unclear how anyone could actually identify these people as Jews using any reasonable survey methodology. I would want to know where the numbers came from.

--Goodoldpolonius2 15:30, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. I wouldn't be suprised if the larger estimate was based on ethnicity, and the smaller on culture. With the conflicting sources, I guess we should give both with a range and some explanation in a footnote, like I did with the conflicting numbers in the Polish September Campaign. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 17:46, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Actually, before putting in a range, I really do want to know the methodology for the numbers given by SylwiaS. How are these ethnicity numbers determined? They just don't agree with any other published figures I have seen, or the Central Committee counts, which makes them suspect, in my mind. I have never seen figures that there are 30,000-40,000 Jews currently in Poland, nor do I understand what "assimilated completely" means, since many of the Jews in Poland in the 1960s assimilated, but were still forced out in the 1968 events. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:51, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

• Waves of Jewish emigrations from Poland according to the Institute of National Memory 1:

First of all Jerzy Eisler the author of the article says that all the numbers referring to Jews in Poland before and after WWII are difficult to estimate and often stand in opposition to each other. The number of all Jews and Poles of Jewish origin living in Poland before WWII is estimated as 3,5 million. The number of Jews in Poland after WWII is much more difficult to estimate and was often artificially under or overstated. Usually it is considered that number of Jews living in Poland soon after the war was 25-400 thousand. The problem of proper estimation is complicated because of several facts: not all the Jews, who survived the camps were from Poland, many people were legally or not leaving Poland, many Jews returned to Poland from camps in other countries, many Jews returned to Poland from the USSR. The total number of Jews, who left to transit camps in Austria, Germany and Italy in 1945-1947 is 175 thousands. Finally in autumn of 1948 there lived about 100,000 Jews in Poland.

The next wave of emigration started several months before October 1956 and return of Gomułka. Many things changed, i.e. the establishing of Israel in 1948, but also new hostile attitude of communist government towards Zionistic organizations. In the same time there was repatriation of Poles from the USSR to Poland. Until the end of March 1959 224 thousand of Poles returned to Poland including about 40 thousand Jews, most of them didn’t stay in Poland. In total in 1956-60 almost 48 thousand Jews left to Israel. In following years the number of emigrants much lowered and was about 500-900 persons a year.

The third wave of emigration started after March and was less numerous than it was previously estimated by many including Jerzy Eisler himself. Formerly its number was estimated as about 20 thousand, but in fact till the end of August 1969 only 11,185 people asked for permission to leave. Some of them weren’t let to leave the country. The after-March emigration lasted till the beginning of 1970s and in total about 15 thousand people left. Among the emigrants there were several hundreds people, who were escaping the responsibility for their activities during Stalinism, but first of all it was emigration of highly educated people. Among 9570 adults asking for permission to leave there were 1823 with advanced education and 944 were during the process of advanced studies. 217 people were University workers and 275 worked for various scientific institutes.

Now, if we count all the numbers it gives: 100,000 + 40,000 – 48,000 – 5,600 (I assumed about 700 emigrants a year for 8 years) – 15,000 = 71,400

The numbers given by the Moses Schorr Centre are higher, but all the numbers given are only estimations. I don’t know, how the Centre came with the number of 30-40 thousand people with positive Jewish identity (I can ask them, if you wish), but the truth is that those people wouldn’t be shown in any official statistics. The 10,000 are religious Jews, but in Poland most of Jews are not religious. Their families have been living in Poland for centuries, so they wouldn’t say that their nationality is Jewish instead of Polish (only about 1200 people in Poland indicate their nationality as Jewish). Still, there are many Jews atheists, who have very strong Jewish identity referring to their culture, history, they often have families in Israel. They consider themselves Jews. Also the number of religious Jews in Poland risen from 5,000 in 1989 to 10-12,000 in 2000. The additional 5-7,000 are not new immigrants only Polish people of positive Jewish identity, who thanks to institutes like the said Centre started to have new interest in their own religion.

If we take the number of 71,400 given by Eisler, we cannot determine, how many of the people consider themselves Jews. But the article History of the Jews in Poland in all other places refers to Jews according to their ethnicity, so it seems like most of them would disappear at the end of the article where it refers only to the religious ones.

I think it should be said that there are about 70-100,000 Jews in Poland, though only 10-12,000 are religious Jews.

P.S. I consider all the sources given in this discussion as highly reliable, but only the Institute of National Memory is granted the access to all the old files of communists in Poland. --SylwiaS 22:43, 28 July 2005 (UTC)

Sywia, though I admire your research, I have a few problems with your approach.

• First, you are leaving out a wave of immigration in the INM reports that may count for the difference. Your story of the first exodus from Poland ends in the autumn of 1948, right around the time of the establishment of Israel, and legal immigration into that country, as opposed to illegal immigration through Berihah. From the very old March 1950 issue of Population Studies, pp. 45-58, we can get official statistics of immigration to Israel from Autumn of 1948 to Autumn of 1949. We get that 29.4% of all immigrants to Israel from January 1948 to June 1949 were from Poland, and the number of immigrants from May 1948 to May 1949 was 143,300 or so, which means 42,000 or more Polish Jews left for Israel alone during that period, and I couldn't find stats for the rest of 1949. Some might have been from DP camps outside of Poland, but it jibes with the 30,000 1948-1950 emmigrant number from Yale, above, and the often-reported figure that there were 45,000 Jews in Poland in 1950. As a side note, the US Holocaust Museum estimates that 110,000 Jews left Poland for Israel between 1948-1950.
• Second, I think there is an issue with your catagorization of Jews in Poland. Just to clarify, religious Jews are those Jews who practice Judaism to some degree, secular Jews don't practice the Jewish religion regularly, but identify as Jews, there are also people who were technically born Jewish, but do not identify as Jews either religiously or secularly, who are not generally counted in any population surveys. It is entirely true that religious observance is not the only standard for identifying Jews, of course, but I don't think that the 10,000-12,000 are religious Jews by any stretch, I believe that number includes all those who identify as Jews, religious or secular. There are 3 functioning synagogues in Poland, which would not likely support a community that size if it was actually religious (Ireland has 6 synagogues for 1,800 Jews, not all religious, for example). I suspect that the 10,000-12,000 includes all people who identify themselves as Jews, whether through religious practice or just coming into a Jewish community center. The 70,000-100,000 might be true if you include all people born to mothers who were technically Jewish, but not raised Jewish, and not Jewish themselves, but I am just not sure how one would calculate that. So, again, I don't buy the number until we know how it was calculated.
• Finally, I think that the numbers undercount illegal immigration, especially during the 1968-1970 time period, which estimates still put at 25,000 or so, and the 10,000 number seems low. Even if this is not the case, I still think that the 1948-1950 exodus is the missing link.

Let me know your thoughts, --Goodoldpolonius2 03:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

• First of all my English isn’t perfect and I can use improper words, if I did so, I’m sorry, I’ll try to learn. However, I don’t think that I can mess a religious Jew, a secular Jew and a non-Jew. I agree that people, who don’t consider themselves Jews or even don’t know about their ethnicity, shouldn’t be counted as Jews. But, let’s see. The article History of the Jews in France ends with the sentence ‘’There are more than 600,000 Jews living in France, of which around 375,000 live in Paris.’’ While on the site linked there, there is an information: ‘’Only 40 percent of French Jewry are associated with one of these community bodies. It is also estimated that only 15 percent of French Jews go to synagogue.’’ How is the 600,000 number counted then? From History of the Jews in Germany ‘’Today, Germany is home to a Jewish population of more than 105,000, mostly recent immigrants from the Soviet Union (if counting those not belonging to a synagogue, the number may be higher, an estimate is 200,000).’’ Again, how is the additional 100,000 estimated? From History of the Jews in the United States ‘’At the beginning of the century, there were around a million Jews in the United States, at the end of the century, around 6 million.’’ Yet Results of the 2000-01 National Jewish Population Surveyshows
• Among the study's key findings:
• There are 5.2 million U.S. Jews, down 5 percent from 5.5 million counted in the 1990 population study.
• Of those, 4.3 million have "stronger Jewish connections," meaning they attend Passover seders and light Chanukah candles. This number also includes those more Jewishly committed--people who keep kosher homes, routinely attend synagogue, attend Jewish schools and belong to at least one Jewish organization.
• Jewish intermarriage is rising at a steady pace, with the rate at 47 percent--what would have been two percentage points higher than the 1990 figure of 52 percent if calculated the same way as in the 1990 study).
• Now, I’ve checked many places and the number 10-12,000 Jews in Poland refers only to people having “stronger Jewish connections”. They are as active as the number 4,3 million in the USA. So why in other articles higher numbers are covered while in Poland only the lowest can be mentioned?
• Finally, I didn’t give “my story”. And I don’t have any suspicious approach. I only cited two Polish sources, both highly respectable, which partly disagree with the American ones. I think that the difference comes mostly from the fact that the American ones still use information received from communists. E.g. the sentence from YIVO An additional 30,000 Polish Jews who had initially elected to remain in the USSR returned to Poland in 1957. blows smoke over the fact that those people were actually imprisoned in Russian Gulag camps. It’s not very surprising, since until recently nothing more was officially known, but during last years our history was investigated anew and some things look different now and will look even more so in coming years.
• The 1949 emigration is usually either counted together with the previous one or separately. It seems that the Instytut Pamięci Narodowej counted it together. Many sources give number 140-150,000 for the emigration before 1948 and 30,000 for the emigration in 1949. The institute gave the number 175,000. However, I agree that it would change the counting. In 1949 there were about 100,000 Jews registered in Jewish societies. In 1948 Polish government changed and all emigration was prohibited. Since then there was no opportunity for illegal emigration. Poland became one big prison to all its citizens. In the end of 1949 Polish government allowed only once for emigration to Israel. Not to everyone but only to Jewish committees’ members. It is estimated that about 30,000 left. Many more wanted to leave, but were refused and could leave no sooner then during the next emigration in 1950s. The 1968 emigration isn’t underestimated, rather it was overestimated for years. It really wasn’t possible to smuggle 10,000 people across two communist borders (Poland didn’t border with any Western European country). Also why would people risk their life, when they were even strongly encouraged to leave the country legally?
• Now, it’s about consistency in this article. The number 3,5 million of Polish Jews before WWII refers to ethnicity including even Jews converted into Catholicism. The same situation is with all the numbers referring to survivors. The number 100,000 from 1949 however refers only to people, who considered themselves Jews, otherwise they wouldn’t have registered. But 1986 emigration included many people, who didn’t consider themselves Jews. Am I messing something?
• Even if we will take of the number 70,000 the 1949 emigration, we still have 40,000 left. Since then new generations were born so the number would be much higher after over 50 years. In 1980s it was considered that only 1-2,000 Jews lived in Poland, now the number is many times bigger, where are the people from?
• Finally, why are we questioning the data at all. If a respectable Jewish institution in Poland gives the numbers, why we can’t just write in the article that according to the Moses Schorr Centre there live about 100,000 Jews in Poland out of which 30-40,000 have strong Jewish identity?

P.S. Instytut Pamięci Narodowej closely collaborates with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. The Moses Schorr Centre is promoted by Israeli Embassy in Poland and was established by the Lauder Foundation.

How about mentioning all the numbers? I’d also add in the 1986 emigration the number 15,000 as given by IPN.--SylwiaS 19:03, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Sylwia, I'll read through the material you posted in detail later, but I don't want you to think that I was doubting your intentions or saying that your data was wrong, or badly sourced, or manipulative, etc. I just had never seen these figures before so it struck me as strange that they were so different, but I couldn't read Polish to check it out. Incidentally, this Polish site on Jewish emigration seemed interesting - what is it?--Goodoldpolonius2 19:11, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Thank goodness, I've read tons lately about all the emigrations and was starting to feel really depressed that it's all for none. I know, I was surprised seeing the numbers too, but I live in Warsaw and many of my friends are Jewish, though they are not associated in any institutions and don’t go to synagogue, so the numbers seemed reasonable. I am very sorry that so many Polish sites are in Polish only. Even the Israeli Embassy hasn’t full English version. The site you linked to is one of Polish Jewish portals. There is lots of good information there. This particular article is a reprint from WSiP, which is an official publisher of books for Polish schools. So those are exactly things, which Polish pupils are taught. There are more articles on that site, which you can be interest in like: assimilation or people, communities, rebirth of Jewish life in Poland etc. There are also many other portals and institutes’ sites but unfortunately mostly in Polish. This will probably change when the Jewish museum in Warsaw is built. Of course all Polish school books were revised since 1989, but still it doesn’t mean that the information there are final. That’s why I often check the IPN site. This is an institution established to investigate our history. They are also prosecutors in criminal trials like genocide etc. Crimes, which couldn’t have been punished earlier, but shouldn’t be forget. You may be interested in their investigation on Jedwabne. If you know anyone speaking Polish it’s also possible to read all the reports from the investigation, but it’s couple hundreds pages long, much too long to translate. If you want to search the page for more information in English here’s the link. Try “Jew” for example, and you’ll get many topics. It’s up-dated regularly. You can also check Polish Jews Forum for various information. --SylwiaS 03:24, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

I've just found an American article, which says about 30,000 Jews in Poland --SylwiaS 12:13, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Having had more time to read your most recent responses, this is really good stuff - its always nice for Wikipedia to be the most up-to-date English source on a topic. Your last responses make it a bit clearer what Jewish identity means, though it would be good to know more, though not critical to the article -- are the other 60,000-70,000 converted to Catholicism (they wouldn't be measured in most surveys of Jews, then)? Do they have one Jewish parent (unless it is the mother, they also wouldn't usually be measured in most surveys)? Anyway, howabout saying "There are no official census figures that would indicate the number of Jews in Poland today, so most sources report that there are 10,000-12,000 Jews actively participating in the Polish Jewish community. According to the Polish Moses Schorr Centre and other Polish sources, however, this may represent an undercount of the actual number of Jews living in Poland today, since many are not religious. The Centre estimates that there are approximately 100,000 Jews in Poland, of which 30,000 to 40,000 have some sort of direct connection to the Jewish community, either religiously or culturally." --Goodoldpolonius2 14:26, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Great, I like the sentence very much. As to your question, actually it’s very unlikely that they would convert. Before the WWII only about 10% Jews were assimilated. It doesn’t necessary mean they were Catholics. Assimilation didn’t mean converting to another religion but rather changing the style of life. Many would be atheists then, some probably would still go to synagogues but they wouldn’t live in Jewish parts of town and they would speak Polish. Especially those, who were well educated and worked in Polish institutions. They didn’t want to be exactly like Poles, but they were also protesting against the orthodox style of life. I think it was a general trend in those times. If you read biographies of Kafka or Freud, they would make good examples. After the WWII assimilation was atheism. In all communist countries religion was in bad taste. It was really big luck that the Catholic church was to some degree free in Poland. No one who held any important position in a country could have been religious. I don’t mean the government only, but also soldiers, police, university or science workers, management of companies at so on. Also many would be atheists simply because there was no or very little religious life in Judaism. It was really much different than what was in Western countries. Like e.g. all marriages had to be civil and then one might take also another one in church, but only for personal satisfaction, because it wasn’t observed by law. So there were no many reasons to convert. I’ve read many articles lately about Jews in Poland today. Mainly personal stories. Many people attempt now to find their new identity in accordance to their ethnicity. Some are starting to go to synagogues now, some not. But it’s more likely that even if they don’t feel like being religious, they will send their children to the communities. The atheism of Polish Jews derives mostly from Polish history and the circumstances, in which they grew up, not from personal choices. --SylwiaS 14:05, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

FA Renominating

I'd like to renominate this - can somebody adress the last, failed nomination objections? While I think they should be easy to adress, they touch matters outside my area of expertise. Help would be appreciated. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:23, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I can't help with Christopher Browning's The Origins of the Final Solution, but I am happy to address anythign else that comes us. --Goodoldpolonius2 22:45, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Lets re-nominate, I'll provide back-up. The only thing missing is Halibutt's potential redrawing of the Ghettos image, but otherwise we should give it a shot. --Goodoldpolonius2 05:53, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok - done. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Questions for Jan Gross

Jan Gross will be visiting my university of Pittsburgh on Nov 2-3 and hold two talks about recent Polish-Jewish history. If there are any questions you would like me to ask him, do let me know and I will go there and ask him :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 20:18, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Time: Wednesday Nov. 2, 4 p.m.; History Dept. Graduate Program Speaker Series

Location: Martin Room 4127 Sennot Square

Topic:“Anti-Semitism in Poland After Auschwitz, 1944-1948”

Time Thursday Nov. 3, 4 p.m. Jewish Studies

Location: Cathedral of Learning, Ground Floor—G8

Topic: “Jewish-Polish Relations in the Post-Communist Era”

Interesting. One fact that we have discussed here is what his reaction to the IPN report on Jedwabne was, I'd be curious to hear that. --Goodoldpolonius2 21:15, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

How'd the talk go? --Goodoldpolonius2 21:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't made it. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:55, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

A minor question

I'm not sure of either the style or the meaning of the first sentence of the Commonwealth section: "The era of Jewish Polish history in Jewish history had a profound impact on Judaism as a whole". Or is it just me ? --Lysy ^(talk) 18:28, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Fixed. --Goodoldpolonius2 19:57, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Liga Polskich Rodzin and Samoobrona

"... and which employ xenophobic and anti-semitic propaganda as one of their tools, often accusing their opponents of being a part of a Jewish conspiracy aiming to take control of Poland". While I don't indend to whitewash Polish present political scene, I'm not quite sure about this sentence. Do we have any example of official anti-semitic rhetoric of Samoobrona and LPR ? Not that I would be surprised but frankly I have not heard it for some time already. Maybe I'm just not reading the right papers ? BTW, speaking of skinheads, when was the last time you've heard of any anti-semitic violence in Poland ? --Lysy ^(talk) 20:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm also not sure that it's correct to call LPR "right-wing". They are ultra-conservative nationalists, no doubt about this, but their economy agenda seems rather socialistic.

And what about: "here are no official census figures that would give an exact number" [of the Jewish population]. What about the 2002 national census then ? Was it not official ? (I know it was widely criticised for its flawed methodology but that's another issue)--Lysy ^(talk) 20:37, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the 2002 census could be explained a tad more in-depth. The problem with it is that it did not allow for self-determination and the clerks only accepted a number of fixed minorities. Hence I could not declare my true identity as a Polish Jew and had to chose only one of those :(. Halibutt 00:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree this rendered the census results useless, at least as far as nationality goes, but to claim that "there are no official census figures" is disputable. Better remove this sentence at all ? --Lysy ^(talk) 08:05, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

As I see neither any response to my above concerns regarding LPR being right-wing nor any examples of recent anti-semitic violence in Poland, is it all right if I remove these from the relevant section ? --Lysy ^(talk) 00:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Certain texts from the official Samoobrona webpage might be instructive. Take a look at this text. Balcer 20:14, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As for LPR, this is instructive. Balcer 20:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Balcer, can you translate at least the general idea? --Goodoldpolonius2 22:35, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

The first link is to an article in the highly respected Tygodnik Powszechny, about xenophobia, racism, anti-semitism and related problems in Poland. It mentions in particular that high ranking members of LPR employed anti-semitic rhetoric during the Sejm debate over the investigation of the Massacre in Jedwabne by IPN.

The second link points to what I can only describe as an anti-semitic screed of the lowest kind. To give you the flavour, the author seems to take it as a given that Adolf Hitler and some of his top lieutenants were Jews. Of course this is just an obscure webpage and it does not describe the daily rhetoric of Samoobrona. Nevertheless, the fact that they do display this page on their official site does tell you something about what they are willing to tolerate in their ranks.

And the most depressing part is: Samoobrona and LPR have recently become parts of the coalition governing Poland (not formally but in essence as the government passed the vote of confidence thanks to their support). Balcer 23:47, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Title

Why is the title named "History of the Jews in Poland" and not "History of Jews in Poland" like the Wikipedia guidelines states? CG 23:01, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

There has been a long discussion about this in Talk page in Template:Jews and Judaism sidebar and this was the consensus for a variety of reasons. --Goodoldpolonius2 17:26, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Disputed

In the article there is a statement that Poland had a vibrant Jewish community of over three million, one of the largest in the world, though anti-Semitism, both from the government and the general population, was a growing problem. The government-led or government-inspired anti-Semitism seems highly dubious and would need some source to back it up. As I shown above (see #Rising anti-Semitism - kosher slaughter), the anti-kosher laws are a myth and were never passed. Also, the case of numerus clausus, undisputedly passed by two universities in Poland, had little to do with the government as it was not the case of official policies. Halibutt 01:45, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Yep. I think that it basically boils down that the anti-semitism was not government-inspired - at least it was not specifically singled out from the set of anti-minority rights. Polish nationalistic goverment was trying to force all minorities (Ukrainians, Jews, Bielorusians, etc.) to assimilate by making the life difficult for them - a shameful policy, no doubht. But calling it anti-semitic is confusing the reader and obscuring the (not any prettier) truth - that Polish government was persecuting Jews because they were one of the minorities, not simply because they were Jews (like Nazi Germany did).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 02:30, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe our good ol' Polonius has handled it well now and it seems right, though with some time we might need to expand on that one.

BTW, I wrote a thesis on the anti-minority activity (not laws but rather activities of various officials) in pre-war Poland and I must say that it's really hard to find the truth there as there's still more accusations on any side than serious publications. And some of the publications that are there are merely repeating the good old myths without any sources. Just like the case of closing down Lithuanian language schools. So, in Lithuanian books it is a clear sign of some anti-Lithuanianism of the Polish authorities or attempts to polonize the Lithuanians. Polish books mostly do not mention it at all. At the same time barely any author took the effort to compare the number of Lithuanian schools closed down in 1930's with the number of Polish schools closed in the same period, which sheds some light on it. I believe this might be the case of many instances where it is commonly believed that the Polish pre-war government was anti-anything. Halibutt 02:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

A few more comments:

This part in the section The Cossak's Uprising and the Deluge:

“(…) the Polish kings generally remained supportive of the Jews, despite a hostile clergy and nobility.”

sounds like a generalization. It should be rather “… despite hostile attitudes among some members of clergy and nobility” unless we know that every clergyman and every noble was hostile.

Interwar period – Rising anti-Semitism

“In 1937 the trade unions of Polish doctors and lawyers restricted their new members to Christian Poles”

I think it should also be added that in 1939 there were 33,5% of Jews among doctors and 53% among lawyers in Poland. It gives a bit different picture.

“At the same time, persistent economic boycotts and harassment including property-destroying riots, combined with the effects of the Great Depression that had been very severe on agricultural countries like Poland reduced the standard of living of Polish Jews until it was among the worst among major Jewish communities in the world. The result was that at the eve of the Second World War, the Jewish community in Poland was large and vibrant internally, yet (with the exception of a few professionals) also substantially poorer and less integrated than the Jews in most of the Western Europe.”

I don’t say that the standard of living of Polish Jews was equal to that of Jews in other countries, but I think it should also be noticed what it was like in comparison to other Poles. In 1939 Jews paid 28% of all income to the national budget, so I don’t think their situation was worse than that of Poles.

Here’s my source(in Polish)--SylwiaS 03:55, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Self-defence, LOPF and Anti-Semitism

This statement is poltically loaded and sourceless. Let's turn the tables around- could anybody provide trustworthy references? This isnt a place for furthering political agendas based on falsitude; Anti-Semitism (or any ethnic minority discrimination) is not an issue in current Polish politics. Ksenon 15:07, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

• http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw97-8/poland.html A study about modern anti Semitism in Poland by the University of Tel Aviv.
• http://www.kimel.net/sikora.html Article about the seriousness of modern Polish anti Semitism by Prof. Alexander Kimel.

There are many more articles about this problem, if only you have the will to search for them. Alexbulg 16:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC) Also, there is plenty of graphical material on the web to support this idea, like the one I've incorporated at the article itself. Alexbulg 16:20, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Those articles mention nothing of the political parties.Ksenon 16:56, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

This was discussed during the FAC process, and the source given was [33] (from 2001).--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 19:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The source is probably confusing Bubel's paper called Samoobrona which is antisemitic with the political party also called Samoobrona, the paper was taken over by Bubel, who attacked the party members and which disconnected itself soon after he begun to publish his theories(including that Samoobrona party had been taken over by Jews): http://aklerykal.webpark.pl/pobudka1.html "Mówię wprost: Lepper to złodziej i oszust - denerwuje się Bubel, do niedawna bliski jego współpracownik i wydawca gazety "Samoobrona". Zresztą gazetę wydaje nadal, ale już bez logo Samoobrony. W jednym z artykułów zapowiada ujawnienie dowodów na znaczne "zażydzenie" Samoobrony" --Molobo 12:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think the author of the article confused the two things. Here's a quote from the description of Samoobrona there:

In March 1999, during a 'march against Warsaw', Samoobrona activists displayed antisemitic slogans while protesting the government's economic policy. In front of the Sejm, Samoobrona leader Andrzej Lepper verbally harangued the Minister of Finance, Leszek Balcerowicz, shouting: 'Down with Balcerowicz! To Brussels! To Israel!' Later, in front of the Office of the Council of Ministers, the crowd shouted: 'Traitors! Jews to Israel!'

However, I don't think that one incident is enough to say that they are "often accusing their opponents of being a part of a Jewish-Communist conspiracy". Samoobrona is in general anti-everything, and they probably more often criticise Catholic church in Poland than accuse Balcerowicz of being Jewish. Also, this source is already quite old and consists some mistakes in its data. Can we have a better one?--SylwiaS 14:19, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Objections to FA nomination

See my oppose vote in FA candidates for the beginning of this discussion.

Goodoldpolonius2, first of all, you have William W. Hagen’s citation wrong. In his Before the ‘Final Solution’: Toward a Comparative Analysis of Political Anti-Semitism in Interwar German and Poland on pg. 371 footnote #35 reads:

According to one account, in the period from the end of 1935 to March 1939, 350 Jews were killed and 500 wounded in anti-Semitic violence. Bauer (n. 5 above), p. 184. See also Marcus, pp. 241 ff.; Heller, chap. 4; Mendelsonhn, The Jews of East Central Europe (n. 18 above), p. 74; Jerzy Tomaszewski, The Role of Jews in Polish Commerce, 1918-1939, in Gutman et al., pp. 141-57; Simon Segal, The New Poland and Jews (New York, 1938), pp. 85 ff.; Raymond L. Buell, Poland: Key to Europe, 3d ed. (New York, 1939), pp. 288-319; Jolanta Zyndul, Cele akcji antyzydowskiej w Polsce w latach, 1935-1937, Biuletyn Zydowskiego Institutu Historycznego w Polsce 161 (1992): 53-63.

This citation is important because Hagen’s clearly says ...According to one account... indicating Jehuda Bauer’s essay: My Brother’s Keeper. Prelude to the Holocaust. There on page 184, Bauer citation of 350 Jews killed and 500 wounded is referenced in the footnote #7 by nothing else than... The New York Times, Feb. 7, 1937 article titled Jews Face Crisis in Eastern Europe.

Thus, The New York Times is the primary and only source of this info – and may I say – fabrication - there was no 350 killed and 500 wounded. Overwhelming majority of historians I have checked, including Marcus, do not support NYT claims to the scope and the number of casualties of these events. For example, the most serious riots between Jews and Christians in Poland during the 1930s took place in Przytyk in March of 1936. It resulted in 3 deaths: two Jews and one gentile and a few dozen injured on both sides - see: Adam Penkalla, The "Przytyk Incidents" of 9 March 1936 from Archival Documents, Polin, Nr. 5, pp. 327-59.

It’s the shame that both William W. Hagen and Jehuda Bauer in their zeal to prove existance of near Nazi Germany-like anti-Semitism in interwar Poland used false and fabricated data which, with little bit of the research, could have been easily unmasked.

I have changed the paragraph in question accordingly.

Piotrus, there is a number of areas in this article which still in need of more work before nomination for Feature Article. For instance: Independence and Polish Jews section: a number of Jews both inside and outside Poland during the WWI were also against Polish independence. Other area: the role and influence of Jewish industrialists in Polish interwar economy. Very extensive source for this information is: Joseph Marcus, Social and Political History of the Jews in Poland, 1919-1939, Mouton Publishers, 1989. --Ttyre 15:37, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the New York Times figure seems questionable, but the issue of the total number of victims still remains. For now, I have included the number from the book by Martin Gilbert in the article (see the citation). He is a very respectable historian, so I would tend to trust his numbers, though it would be good to know how exactly he determined them. Clearly his data shows that most of the victims must have been killed individually. It is interesting to consider how Gilbert determined that anti-semitism was the chief factor in their deaths (as opposed to other explanations, such as common criminality, for example). Clearly this issue needs to be explored further. Balcer 07:47, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Balcer, if you have, as myself, doubts about the reliability of these numbers, why have you changed my corrections? Don't you think it's better to investigate this further rather than put the numbers which appear to look better (more reliable source)? I would like to see the references in Gilbert's book for these numbers first. I don't want to revert you - instead I call you to do it yourself and let's dedicate some time for further investigation of this important topic. Also, please note that Gilbert quotes 3 Jewish dead in Przytyk while there were 2 - the third one was a gentile shot by a Jew. --Ttyre 01:25, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Tyre, first of all, I did not revert your changes, someone else did. Second, I put in the new numbers because they clearly come from a more reliable source (compared to the New York Times). This does not mean that these are the most accurate numbers, but they are the best we got at this point, and I really do believe that some numbers must be given in the article to describe the scale of the phenomenon. I agree with your point about Przytyk, and indeed it would be nice to find out how Gilbert obtained his numbers. I will try to get my hands on the hardcopy of the book in my university library and see if there are citations for the sources of these numbers. At any rate, if you have more accurate data, backed by citations, for the total number of Jews killed in anti-Jewish incidents in Poland in those years, feel free to add it right away. Keep in mind though that we have to stick with the Wikipedia:No original research guideline, so citations are really essential, while guesswork is not enough.

I did not change the data about Białystok yet, even though it sounds somewhat exaggerated to me. The data is nevertheless backed by a source, so to challenge it we need to find a better source. Again, the Wikipedia:No original research guideline kicks in. This approach may be too cautious, but I believe it avoids conflicts and revert wars.

I have no fundamental problem with your edits, though including some citations would be useful. I do take exception mainly to the lack of inclusion of specific numbers (or at least estimates, or lower/upper bounds) of the killed and injured. We should do better than "few" and "scores". Balcer 18:29, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

Sorry Balcer - you are right, I have checked the edit history and it appears that User:Alexbulg made these changes. Again, I am amazed at the willingness of some historians as well as wiki editors to exaggerate the number of casualties in anti-Jewish riots in the interwar Poland. For some, an uncorroborated article in NYT is good enough historical source to use it in encyclopedia. I challenge any editor to dig into this matter in both Polish and English-language sources. For instance, this essay: Jolanta Zyndul, Cele akcji antyzydowskiej w Polsce w latach, 1935-1937, Biuletyn Zydowskiego Institutu Historycznego w Polsce 161 (1992) might be a good source. I will check Gilbert's sourcing. For now, NYT reference should go. --Ttyre 16:00, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Martin Gilbert's source for the number of victims of anti-Jewish violence quoted in his Atlas of the Holocaust is: Isaac Landman (edt). The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia, 10 volumes, New York, 1939. Balcer, could you check this position in your library? --Ttyre 00:29, 1 December 2005 (UTC)

Comment

"most non-Jewish Poles did not cooperate in the destruction of the Jewish community, and some Poles protected their Jewish neighbors."

What is the point of this sentence, other than provide a prelude to the claims that Poles, due to their anti-semitism, assisted in the Holocaust ? Why not put that sentence in an entry related to that as opposed to here ?

I would guess this sentence was put in because there exists a widespread misconception that a great number of Poles assisted the German Nazis in carrying out the Holocaust. The sentence attempts to correct that misconception. Balcer 01:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)