Talk:History of the Jews in Romania

Unsourced accusation of Horthy

I reverted an unsourced accusation that Horthy was responsible for the genocide of Romanian Jews during the Holocaust. If someone has a source for that I'll put it back in, but it is my understanding that most of the killings of Romanian Jews in the Holocaust were by the German and Romanian governments and the Hungarian Arrow Cross government which was opposed to Horthy.--Lastexpofan (talk) 04:34, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Treaty of Bucharest

Reading the text of the Treaty of Bucharest (1918) it looks as if this effectively brought about Jewish emancipation in Romania i.e. they all became citizens. So, very surprisingly in view of later events, was Jewish emancipation effectively imposed on Romania by Germany? PatGallacher (talk) 12:03, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

It was the Congress of Berlin (the end of WW-I) who "effectively imposed" Jewish emancipation in Romanian kingdom. The Treaty of Bucharest had little enforcement on the religious freedoms, especially due to war circumstances.Kyry101 (talk) 17:16, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Are you sure you know what you are on about? The Congress of Berlin was in 1878, and had little to do with Romanian internal affairs. The treaty at the end of WWI which affected Romania most was the Treaty of Trianon, there is article 47 about minorities in Romania, but it seems vaguer than the provisions of the Treaty of Bucharest. Some issues like Jewish emancipation might have taken time to work themselves through in the circumstances of the time. Do you have any sources? PatGallacher (talk) 18:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Treaty of Berlin (1878, sorry about the "senior moment" re:WWI) Article XLIII conditions the recognition of independence for Romanian kingdom on instituting freedom "of religious creeds and confessions" (provision mainly aimed at emancipating the Jewish population) and the return of Bessarabia to Russia (see for example Treaty of Berlin (1878) - Excerpts). It was indeed that the Paris Peace Conference, 1919 that "forced" Romanian kingdom (i.e. Ionel Bratianu and the successive governments until Alexandru Vaida) to actually legislate the political emancipation of the Jews (as described in the article also). As sources (N.B. I'm not a historian, my sources might not be best) I use Carol Iancu, Les Juifs en Roumanie (1866-1919) (Aix-en-Provence, 1978, ISBN 0880333464) and Keith Hitchins, Rumania 1866-1947 (Oxford, 1994, ISBN 0198221266).Kyry101 (talk) 04:51, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Defamatory statement about Kalmyk cannibalism(!) in this article

I was very surprised to see this in the article: "Kalmyk irregular soldiers in Ottoman service, who appeared in Bucharest at the close of the Russo-Turkish War of 1806-1812, exercised terror on the city's Jewish population. According to the Jewish Encyclopedia (1906), 'They passed daily through the streets inhabited by the latter, spitted children on their lances, and, in the presence of their parents, roasted them alive and devoured them.'" Yes, this quote really does come from the Jewish Encyclopedia. I know that Jews had a tremendous influence on the people around them and that many other groups were cruel to the Jews, but I'm not sure I believe that our influence included prompting the Kalmyk soldiers to break the final taboo. Does anyone know if this statement about the Kalmyk soldiers is true? BTW, I've also read a fair amount about the history of cannibalism and am surprised I haven't come across this elsewhere. --La comadreja _{formerly AFriedman} RESEARCH (talk) 02:34, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I subscribe to this idea and I submit the proposal to remove the paragraph altogether. Jewish Encyclopedia of 1906 continues to be a quite reliable source of information about less-known aspects of the Jewish history. It does however contain sensationalist stories like this one about Kalmyk/Kalmuck horrors (talking about blood libel ...). Accusations of Kalmyk cannibalism were also used by Stalin's regime when deporting them to Siberia (see for example Deportation of the Kalmyks (1943–1956) and E. B. Guchinova "The Kalmyks", ISBN:978-0700706570).Kyry101 (talk) 16:58, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Copypaste?

Discussion elsewhere mentioning this article caused me to look at it, and I noticed that some of the content here looks like it might be WP:COPYPASTE from http://www.biblediscovered.com/tag/kingdom-of-israel/page/34/. Someone who knows more about this topic than I might want to look at that. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Recent edits of victim numbers

I really wish people would use the Talk page to discuss a little when they do changes without proper references ... As a note, the Final Report of the International Commission on the Holocaust in Romania (i.e. Wiesel Commission - abbreviated to WCom) is considered by historians as the ultimate research reference - the authors compiled and validated the numbers and testimonies from numerous sources and is considered as such by the Yad Vashem too.

To the point, this are some recent edits and the objections I have - please respond HERE and then move to edit the topic if you choose so:

- "Out of approximately 342,000 Jews in Romania at 1941, only 62,000 survived the war.". The author of this edit subtracted the minor number of victims that WCom gives (280,000) from the WannseeList number of existing Jews in Romanian Old Kingdom (342,000) and came up with 62,000. WCom references the 1930 census with ~ 700,000 Jews in Greater Romania; anybody has a reference on how the numbers from the Wannsee List were compiled by the Nazis ? WCom also states clearly "The result of this change in policy [N.E.: Antonescu's anti-semitic policy] was that at least 290,000 Romanian Jews survived".

- "Romania came to completely lose its Jew minority. Today only about 6000 Jews remain in Romania". Which is it ? 2002 Census agrees that about 6000 Jews remain in Romania.

- "A diverse community, albeit an overwhelmingly urban one, Ashkenazi Jews were the favorite target of religious persecution and racism in Romanian society ". Ashkenazi Jews is one community - diverse how ? Job wise, age wise ? The term "diverse community" has different connotations. Also, "favorite target" is debatable - Romani/Gypsy population could claim that too - ranking such things is always tricky even with references. Kyry101 (talk) 20:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

References

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Move discussion in progress

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"The Holocaust in Romania" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect The Holocaust in Romania. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 June 9#The Holocaust in Romania until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. - Jay ^Talk 05:31, 10 June 2021 (UTC)